[Jonathan]

Just wondering if anyone has done the new tweeters/resistors upgrade, and if so, what were the results?  Worth it or not?  Also, has anyone compared an upgraded pair to a new pair of De Capo i speakers? Thanks,

Jon

PS: my system:
DeCapos
Unison Research Unico
Pioneer Elite PD-65 (redbook)
Sony DVP NS500V (SACD)
NAD 533 turntable w/ Sumiko BP.
Kimber PBJ interconnects
Homemade cat5 speaker cables

[cyounkman]

I own the older DC and have heard the 'i', but only at a dealership, and in a systems sufficiently different from mine that I was unable to make a meaningful comparison.

A dealer I am familiar with was under the impression that the whole 'i' upgrade was a response to 1) the fabricator refusing to continue manufacture of the complicated foil technique for the old De Capo cabinet and 2) the discontinuation of the original tweeter. His take is that this is a 'different not better' upgrade that is a good excuse to raise the price and introduce some more domestically-friendly finishes. Obviously, I can't confirm any of this.

In contrast, Hi-Fi+, in awarding the De Capo (not identified as the 'i') a Product of the Year and Editor's Choice Award last issue, made a point to comment on the new recent tweeter 'bringing the treble up to the level of the rest of things' or something to that effect.

The only instance I'm aware of where a reviewer has looked at both the non-'i' and the 'i' models is, as Irish pointed out, Steve Rochlin's review at http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0103/mmdecapoi.htm. While he bungles the names a bit (he seems to be projecting 'Royal' into the name of the product), the review is quite positive and points to a number of sonic improvements in the 'i' version, as well as better parts, build quality, etc. (I am working on a list of web Reviews. Stay tuned.) [Now available here.]

To what extent these improvements will manifest with a tweeter upgrade remains to be seen. Hopefully we can find someone who's done the upgrade.

Another option would be to contact Tash Goka and ask him if he would be willing to provide a customer reference who has had the upgrade done. Obviously, it would be in his interest to give us the name of someone who was at least marginally pleased; unless he is hoping current De Capo owners will sell and upgrade to the 'i' model.

[Jonathan]

Hey Chris,
I am familiar with Rochlin's review at ETM; I was just hoping to find someone with 'real world' experience in comparing the two speakers.  Especially in light of the fact that his comparison (if I remember correctly) was based on his memory of how the original De Capos sounded, not based on a head-to-head comparison at the same time.  Frankly, I don't find that to be a particularly reliable comparison (I find it hard enough to remember what a cable I switched from 10 seconds ago sounds like, let alone trying to remember a speaker from a few months ago).

As far as getting Tash to supply names of people who have done the upgrade, I did ask him for this info, but got no reply.  Since I have found him to be very helpful and informative in the past, this makes me wonder if there are any people who have done the upgrade or not.  Maybe I'll email him and ask again.

Interestingly, your comment about the dealer telling you the new tweeter, etc. in the De Capo i was a manufacturing maneuver was the same information I got from yet another dealer (or maybe it was the same one?) In any case, it does make you wonder, doesn't it?

[Terry]

Well, I have had an opportunity to compare these two speakers in my sytem and this is what I have discovered.
First, as you would expect, the two speakers have far more in common than not. I could detect absolutely no difference in the bass or lower midrange. In the midrange and treble area, however, I could clearly hear an improvement in the "i" version of the speaker. Brass instruments and the male voice had just the right amount of texture and tone on the "i" whereas I detected just a little too much high frequency energy, making the trumpet slightly shrill, on the old version. Similarly, female vocals (Jacintha) were a little harder sounding and sibilants were more emphasized. The upper registers of the piano as well, could sound a little "tinkly" (if you know what I mean) on the old version. Although the differences are not great they are definitely significant enough that, if I had the old version, I would immediately upgrade the tweeter and capacitors. The differences were actually greater than I expected.
I only used CDs for this comparison (a lot easier than vinyl for this purpose) and the following selections were included:
Kenny Burrell  - Downstairs
Patricia Barber - Bye Bye Blackbird
Ike Quebec - The Man I love
James Carter - Eventide
Frank Sintra - One for my baby
Jacintha - And the angels sing.

[cyounkman]

Terry:

Thanks so much for posting. That is very interesting to hear; and I must say it's about what I was expecting, as I've spent the last year, more or less, fixing things in my system to get rid of a certain brightness in the treble, with no success. The problem is probably exacerbated for me since I'm using ss amplification instead of tubes.

Anyone know how much the tweeter/cap upgrade is?

[Terry]

Chris,

Your welcome! I was very fortunate that a friend was kind enough to lend me his old(er) DeCappos. As far as the cost of the upgrade is concerned, it was not expensive - around $150 US if I recall correctly. I could not find reference to this upgrade on Divergent's website; hopefully, they are still offering it to owners of the original DeCappos.

[cyounkman]

For the benefit of other readers, this is Terry's system, in which I assume the comparison was done. Terry, please update if anything was significantly different.

My system consists of the: 1) DeCappo -i with heavy stands; 2) VPI TNT/Graham(various cartridges); 3) Audible Illusions M3A with Gold phono board; 4) TriMax mono-block amps; 5) Magnan Signature IC and Signature speaker wire, biwired; 6) an old (10yrs.) Arcam Alpha CDP; 7) REL Strata Subwoofer.

[I am inserting a moment of silence here so that I can be jealous of Terry's turntable in peace.]

Since they're filled with lead, I would guess that 'heavy stands' is a bit of an understatement.  

[Jonathan]

Terry,

Was the comparison you did between a pair of the original DeCapos and a pair of the "i" series, or did you hear a 'modded' pair (new tweeters and caps) vs. the originals?

Thanks for the clarification.

Jon

[cyounkman]

Terry has the De Capo i, which he compared to his friend's unmodified MM De Capo.

[Terry]

Chris,

The only change in the system concerned the change to a Wireworld Gold Eclipse III+ IC between the preamp and amp from the Magnan Signature.

Jonathan,

Chris is correct; this comparison was between an original (unmodded) pair and the "i".

[Paul L]

A couple of points

1) The 'i' has some change internal change in the cabinet.
2) The 'i' has new speaker binding posts.
3) You need to make sure your existing tweeter is the direct drop-in replaceable.  You can identify by the screws around the dome.  If there are 4 screws it is, if there are 3 screws, it isn't.

If you are upgrading the cap and tweeter, you better off upgrade the binding post as well.  Unfortunately you can't do much about the cabinet.

[cyounkman]

1) The 'i' has some change internal change in the cabinet.

My understanding is that it's a different cabinet entirely, as discussed earlier in this thread.

2) The 'i' has new speaker binding posts.

What kind of benefits would you expect from upgrading the posts? Has anyone (maybe doing DIY?) experimented with basic posts (the old De Capo posts are pretty 'basic') vs. the fancy Cardas-sourced ones on the 'i'?

I'm just wondering what the value proposition would be. They're very pretty ... but it's the back of the speaker, after all...

The panel here is also very different from the plastic inset box on the older model. I'm wondering how much work would be involved to make the change. Is this a standard upgrade they're offering, or was it your own idea?

Here they are:

[Jonathan]

Thanks for the clarification, Terry.

As I've said before, I really would like to hear from someone who has actually done the modification to their speakers. I know that $150 or so (I keep thinking I was quoted $178, but I may have dreamed this) is a relatively inexpensive investment, but if it's not going to make a significant improvement, that's money better spent elsewhere.

Jon

[Terry]

Jonathan,

What does Divergent say about the tweeter upgrade? If it takes the old version to the level of the "i" then it is well worth the money. If it is something less than the "i", it may not be worth the $. I would trust Tash Goka on this. He cannot be making any money on that $150 ($178) charge for the update.  
After I finished my comparison of the two speakers I concluded that, had I brought the old version of the DeCappo home for evaluation, I would probably not have bought it. Although the old DeCappo still does great things and is one of the best mini-monitors ever sold, that upper frequency ringing (or whatever it was) that I heard would probably have ruled out this speaker for me. I can't imagine anyone preferring the old version to the new but, as we all know, YMMV.

[Paul L]

Chris,
The binding post suggestion was actually suggested by Tash to both my customer calling him directly and also from the conversation between Tash and myself.  So, I took the words and posted it here.

I am not a true believer of connector myself but it seems that UHF took them very seriously when they used the WBT on the WW Equinox and I just LOL.  After all, they relegated that WW to its video system.  I am pretty sure I am not 100% backing on the whole upgrade idea especially if the cabinet is as that much difference as Chris said.  I have no information about the cabinet is a complete new design though.

By the way, take caution about my opinion.  It is interesing that I never had a chance to listen to the upgradable old De Capos in my system.  Mine were all with 3 screws around the dome which is the viva tweeters instead of the late SEAS that just before the i was introduced and also I have never compared the old version with the i version side by side in the same system.


Terry, which old verson you are comparing to, the one with 3 screws or 4 screws?  We don't have the ringing problem with our systems at all.  Are you hearing ringing from both your analogue system and CD player?

[Terry]

Paul,

The old DeCappos I used have the tweeter with the 4 screws. I know that they were purchased just a month or two before the new "i" version was released.

I did not try my vinyl system when I did this comparison and, had I done so, the difference between the 2 speakers would probably have been less obvious.  

Another contributing factor may have been how I have the speakers set up. The speakers are set-up along the long wall of the room and they are angled toward the listener. This is definitely not how Divergent recommends setting up the DeCappos, at least the old version, and I believe the reason for this is that the tweeters on this version have smoother off-axis response. With the "i" version, listening with the tweeter more on-axis (speakers angled toward the listening chair) improves image focus but does not increase brightness appreciably.
Unfortunately, I cannot go back and retest both speakers to determine if the old and "i" versions sound more alike if the listener is sitting at the apex of an equilateral triangle (tweeters off axis).  I do not believe I would have come to a different conclusion (namely, that the highs on the "i" are considerably smoother) but the difference would probably  have been less pronounced.

[Jonathan]

Tash is holding to his opinion that the upgrade makes a big improvement, but it's hard to imagine him saying otherwise (I'm not saying he's not telling the truth, but it's certainly in his best interest to stand behind the new product).  That said, if we compare the upgraded DeCapos to the DeCapo i, we're still comparing oranges to tangerines instead of apples to apples.  There are just too many things they've done to the speaker to be able to make a fair comparison.  Maybe I'll bug Tash again for the names of people he's sold the upgrade kits to so that I can get feedback from those who have done it.   I'll keep you posted.  

By the way, I would not characterize my speakers as having an annoying ring in the highs either.  

Thanks,

Jon

[Paul L]

Terry,
I can see two variable that may causes the top end problem in your old version setup.  The i version seems to be more forgiving than the i version.  The toe-in is a definite no no.  Another is you use the old CDP only.
Hey, don't get me wrong, I am not trying to downplay the new version.  But I am not a typical salesman that saying all the new products are bettern than the old me.  I am telling my opinion from my only experinece and from my heart.  I may be the poorest audio salesman in the world.
The i version at least has a very favourable advantage is that it is not that finicky to setup.  It took me 3 months to set the old version up to its optimum in my living room that everyone gave a "WOW, WOW, WOW" effect when first listened to them.

[Terry]

Paul,

I has taken me quite some time to get the most out of my DeCappo-is. I could hear the potential from the speaker as soon as I inserted them in my system but I knew that, with careful room placement, I could get even more from them. When I finally moved the speakers to the long wall set-up, close to but not quite that recommended by Audio Physics, I knew I had found the right position for these speakers. This involves a certain degree of toe-in and the "i"s behave very well in this position. The old DeCappos did not do nearly as well - they were decidely bright when set-up this way.

I have heard the old DeCappos many, many times in several very good systems and they did not, for the most part, sound bright. I was going to buy a pair of the old version but, fortuitously, bought  the new "i" when it was released. I am convinced that Divergent is not exagerating when they claim that the "i" is a significant improvement (or, perhaps, "refinement" would be a better word) on the older design.  As I stated before, if I had the older version and could replace the tweeter, I would do so without hesitation. On the other hand, if I was enjoying my older speakers and could not replace the tweeter, I would not loose sleep over this - the older DeCappos are still great speakers and superb value.

[Terry]

Paul,

It has taken me quite some time to get the most out of my DeCappo-is. I could hear the potential from the speaker as soon as I inserted them in my system but I knew that, with careful room placement, I could get even more from them. When I finally moved the speakers to the long wall set-up, close to but not quite that recommended by Audio Physics, I knew I had found the right position for these speakers. This involves a certain degree of toe-in and the "i"s behave very well in this position. The old DeCappos did not do nearly as well - they were decidely bright when set-up this way.

I have heard the old DeCappos many, many times in several very good systems and they did not, for the most part, sound bright. I was going to buy a pair of the old version but, fortuitously, bought  the new "i" when it was released. I am convinced that Divergent is not exagerating when they claim that the "i" is a significant improvement (or, perhaps, "refinement" would be a better word) on the older design.  As I stated before, if I had the older version and could replace the tweeter, I would do so without hesitation. On the other hand, if I was enjoying my older speakers and could not replace the tweeter, I would not loose sleep over this - the older DeCappos are still great speakers and superb value.