[jon_010101]

I actually like the WRX. They are not slow, you can pass people, but they are at best quick without a lot of work. I would probably want the wagon myself for the room, a bike rack some where on it, maybe a kayak or something.

All to often I hear little kids creaming their pants over normal WRX non STIs. They are quick, not fast. There are a TON of faster cars out there that have been around since the 80's. Hell even the STI is not god like fast either, but fast enough to out run about any cop car beside ...

Mine is a Saab 9-2X Aero, but I typically refer to it as a Subaru since it, well, is .  Really, it's a total dog in normal driving!  Around town, my 88 Mazda 626 turbo feels faster.  But, if you make the conscious effort to "drive" it, it can be quite a bit of fun (and quite a bit faster than first apparent).  Jeckyll and Hyde almost, although "Hyde" is non-trivial to invoke.  For one thing, and unlike every other turbo I've driven, it won't even approach full boost unless you give it more than 55% throttle.  The handling is also rather unconventional too, but it really comes into its own on a rough, twisty, hilly back road.  Took me probably 10,000 miles in it to fully appreciate it's "style".  Of course, as WerTicus noted, there is plenty of room for cheap upgrades if one is so-inclined.

However, I do think you completely underestimate the STI ... 0-60 in well under 5 seconds, stock, and handling to match.  Drive one, seriously.  Really nothing else competitive in that price range, except for the rather similar Evo.  I wouldn't daily-drive either one, but either is more practical than a RWD American beast (viz Mustang GT).  Shame that the 300HP STI engine isn't available in the Legacy yet.

And, the grody boxer rumble?  ... I would hardly describe that as "cute".  It would take some fancy equal length headers to make that engine sound "cute" ... and what a ruse that would be!

[WerTicus]

my dad just got the evo 9 and i have the my00 wrx which you didnt get in america

it was the best wrx too

but the evo is just brutal!

[Folsom]

WRXs (STI in particular) handle a little bit better than most people think they do. With some strut tower braces they will compete just fine with an Evo on a fair playing field. The problem is they are harder to drive handling wise. A friend of mine likes to race his STI in autocross so I get filled in on this stuff and things from driving school (rich kid).

You know those numbers for the STI are actually funny though.... The GT Mustang in a straight line will be faster if... (stock to stock) The person driving the STI is not planning on replacing his clutch in the next month. All the tests with the STI look impressive but you should expect such from a AWD dropping the clutch at 6,000rpms...... Which also means that clutch will last about a month. AWD is cool and all, for the street... On the strip it means a loss of HP if you got traction from the rear. Economically it is not something to choose for the quarter, it is one of the worst choices. They are factory limited power wise because the Magnesium rods in them will only take so much. You can see how expensive things could go in a hurry to try and push one into the 11's or 10's. On the other hand some traction bars, slicks, and a cam swap can put certain Camaro LS1's into the 10's. Nothing like the possibility of 10's in under $1k of extras! I still would take the STI though because I never drag race... I enjoy driving like I am in a race car within speed limits almost always, just a timely manner, and all my driving is pretty much freeway over a pass. I like corners and passing power, anything more is a bonus that cost to much for me!

Boxer rumble? I said cute because to be honest it is not a good sound   . I hear it all over the place and it is not pleasent. I like it more than others but I would hope if I owned one I would not be able to hear it all the time.

Evo's are not as fast, but handle nice for people just getting into driving. Well that and they have been plagued with problems   . I like how they look, handle, and would probably like one over a WRX STI. Gas milage wise and use wise WRX hatchback please. Although right now I have no car, well I do but I am putting a new engine in it, and plan to sell. I got no need for a car right now.

[Se7en]

I'd like to chime in about "real world" usable speed here.

I've almost purchased an STI on two different occasions (not an EVO tho) and two of my close friends own them. We often go on fairly extended "high-speed pleasure" cruises in Northen California, where the terrain, road conditions, temperatures are extremely varried. I drive an '03 Z06.

Technically speaking, my car is lighter (3100lbs curb), more powerful (405 HP "if stock") and has more mechanical cornering grip than the STI. By all accounts a "faster" car.

In the real world, the conditions really need to be good for me to get the upper hand on the STI though. The gearing differences between the cars are such that the STI will pull from 60 to 100 nearly as fast as the Z, but the Subaru does it in 4th, where I need to hold in 3rd almost the entire way. Off the line, I can get away from the STI, if the road temps are perfect. If not perfect, I'm spinning 2nd and through the bottom half of 3rd and if the roads are even slightly wet, game over.

Similarly, I can carve a much faster line through the turns, as long as the road surfaces are flat and even, road temps good, etc. once things get uneven, the Subaru is a much more forgiving and flexible car. I'm not saying faster, but certainly easier to drive & possibly safer.

I'm sure that in a well contained environment, (drag strip or road course) the Z06 by the numbers would win out, especially stock for stock, but in the real world I think that Subaru and Evo owners have fun, a lot more of the time (for me that is pretty important).

So, why did I buy the Z06? Seat of the pants feel! There is no comparison between the torque delivery of the Z06 and the STI. Also, the Z is very low slung and cornering behavior is very flat in comparison to the STI. The Subaru feels very tall to me and gives the sense of "leaning". The upshot to the subaru is that it does have a narrower footprint and combined with its ride height gives the driver more visibility and potentially better use of narrow roads. Lastly, I like to drive long distances, and the Z is super comfortable (very long legs), and will get me 26+MPG, cruising in 6th at 85MPH!  

My .02, bang for the buck, there is no better all around fun car than the WRX/STI (no offense intended EVO guys, I just don't know your car).

Sorry for the rant.

-Gabriel

[rosconey]

62 dodge polara 500-the sound a 361 big block makes is the sweetest music i can think of-

[jon_010101]

my dad just got the evo 9 and i have the my00 wrx which you didnt get in america

My dad just sold his 1990 Celica All Trac Turbo (aka GT4).  Was a fun car too, along the same lines.  If it weren't for the ridiculous cost of maintenance, I'd have bought it.

Okay... [/threadjack]  

[jon_010101]

Sorry for the rant.

THANK YOU for the rant  

[Folsom]

Oh yeah there is no replacement for a V8's torque feel.... High RPMs are fun and all but yeah you got the ZO6. Being able to tap on the gas and feel the entire vehicle lurch forward and releave all the vehicle weight off of the front, mmmm.

I suppose you are just really pointing out that the Subaru shines in hm I dunno, off road rally race track circumstances   .

I live where there is snow, so I would, if I was confined to one car, choose AWD/FWD over RWD for about any car. The only cars RWD I would consider is a BMW perhaps.

[Se7en]

If I lived in the snow, I'd be screwed    - But I don't

I guess, what prompted me to post the last message was the notion of "underestimating" the Subaru (or Evo for that matter), which had been mentioned in an earlier post.  

It would be very easy for me to underestimate the STI, especially if the extent of my knowledge was based only on comparing published specs or numbers. Those cars are quick as hell, and once modding begins, it's anyones guess...


BTW: There are some pics of the cars on one of the runs. We had one STI, the Z and two bikes on a 7 hours total drive. The drive is called skaggs spring road.  
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&lr=&rls=SUNA,SUNA:2006-20,SUNA:en&q=+site:www.pashnit.com+skaggs+spring+road


The pics of the cars can be found on www.myspace.com/ce7en  
look under "pics". That was a good day  

[Folsom]

They are fast cars... Just not as initially fast as most people think they are. Light modding puts them into the numbers the boast with out destroying it.

What I find amusing is a lightly modded (most are) will out run any police vehicle excluding maybe two (B4C and Lambo). Now this becomes amusing that rich kids get them (like my friend), and any grown adult with a decent job. The amount of car for the price is just impressive, mechanically any who.

Your Vette, you ever expermint with different tires, and pressures? Just to say I doubt you should be loosing much ground on corners that are less than absolutely perfect.

People think that I underestimate vehicles semi often. The truth is I know what they push in the quarter, about how much power will do what etc... and I know of a world where cars with under 500hp, not pulling 10's, 9's, or 8's, and that is fast amazingly fast. The majority of people think cars that pull a 15 are fast. Few understand gearing of cars enough to know some also can not be accurately reflected via quarter mile.

I rate cars in general 14-15 second quarters as quick, 11-13 real fast, and 10 and below down right scary.

You ever go to www.digitalcorvette.com? They got a bunch of great Vette videos. There is a street legal one running a 9.4 woo! There are a lot of videos of them running 10's etc.. They make you want to swap in a new cam

[Se7en]

I've done done quite a bit playing around with the suspension on these cars. This is actually my second Z06. The first one was a 2001, dropped about 1", running mich. pilot ps2's with a very aggressive allignment. The trade off here was greater difficulty hooking up off of the line.

Even stock, this car is quite happy moving through the corners at twice any posted speed, but the tuned up Z was good for +10MPH more (I do mean almost 80 in a 35) without any drama whatsoever. All this being said, an allwheel drive car (STI) can late break (past the Z) and use all fours to pull out of the turn. The Z must find a sharper line through the bend.

The amazing thing about the Z is the way the traction assist works. In competition mode, it disables the taction control but leaves active stability and handling on. This means you can actually get the car sideways without the car getting squirrely at all. On the few occasions I've evoked the system, it has usually resulted in me hitting my head on the sideglass   , but never loss of control.  

If you want to see a cool setup, check out this link. They're running a "rear" mounted twin turbo setup on Z06s!!! Some great vids here too.

http://www.ststurbo.com/


-Gabriel

[Folsom]

I am a bigger fan of close mount for autocross style driving. Yeah heatsoak can be a problem though, I know.

AWD has limitations on corners though too... They can use power but at some point they also get the problem of breaking all four tires loose and then flying off the corner.

Perhaps you should go watch the new Fast and Furious, learn how to drift .

[Se7en]

Funny enough, the amount of piping required for a front mount system on these cars is nearly the same as is needed on the rear mounted "straight pipe" in the STS. There is very little lag in the sts setup.

Besides, a front mounted system for that car would cost me at least 20K, a properly set up 427TT forged pushes closer to 50   . The rear mounted system running very low boost (6lbs) on stock internals is about 8K installed and is safe for about 525 @ wheeels! I'd still like to go fully forged for reliability, but wouldn't raise boost levels much past that point...I like to corner, not drag.

As for drifitng... I can barely afford the tires now!

[WerTicus]

everyone seems to want to get a front mount on the WRX, its a bad idea though - APS do a large top mount with none of the losses associated with a front mount.

I have one on my WRX its fantastic!

I also have done a LOT of suspension work on mine too - with, shocks, springs, sways, struts, camber etc...  can take a 90degree corner at 100km/h no problems (and stay on my side of the road)

thats what its all about for me - the corners i love them

the WRX is normally understeery, but i have fixed that its very well balanced now.

now i need more power though - because i cannot break traction, unless its wet + corner + 2nd + 60km/h+  else it just GOES!

in western australia we just had the anual possum borne wrx cruise, there were 120+ wrx's driving around for 4 hrs or so... rather fun

[Folsom]

I had a 1987 Subaru Hatchback LX model (I think). It had no Turbo, splayed 4 like you guys have... Bald front tires. I think I invented drifting with front tires.

I use to get to a 90 degree corner, crank the wheels so fast that the car would still be going straight, then it would lock on and swing around, and I would continue on my way.  

I think I might have a technique down for something with more power, but who knows... I try not to do crazy stuff.

Se7en I take it that you are a DIY for your car? Those prices are insane but so goes the life of a Corvette under other peoples wrenches...

Normal WRX's just plain old need a lot more power! 230hp through AWD is great for a driver (I would use for) but for fun, time to bring on some more boost or something. I have a video of a WRX with exhaust, maybe something else, getting wooped by a SHO with 4 people in it . They are cool cars but again I am not creaming my pants like to many little kids do.

[Se7en]

I had a 1987 Subaru Hatchback LX model (I think). It had no Turbo, splayed 4 like you guys have... Bald front tires. I think I invented drifting with front tires.

I use to get to a 90 degree corner, crank the wheels so fast that the car would still be going straight, then it would lock on and swing around, and I would continue on my way.  

I think I might have a technique down for something with more power, but who knows... I try not to do crazy stuff.

Se7en I take it that you are a DIY for y ...

I have actually left this car stock (fast and reliable as is). I can afford to play with cars or audio, but certainly not both and not at the same time. I also moved to San Francisco this last year, the roads and hills are absolute crap on the car. As a result I'm getting a lot more regular enjoyment out of my tunes than I am the car.

[Bemopti123]

my dad just got the evo 9 and i have the my00 wrx which you didnt get in america

My dad just sold his 1990 Celica All Trac Turbo (aka GT4).  Was a fun car too, along the same lines.  If it weren't for the ridiculous cost of maintenance, I'd have bought it.

Okay... [/threadjack]  

I would not have thought that a Toyota would be expensive to maintain, but then things like a Celica All Trac Turbo as well as the older turbo Supras are not you run of the mill Corollas that require simple oil changes and just unleaded gas.  That Celica, the way I remember it had an awesome stereo.....some subwoofer in the middle of the dash or was it in the middle of the back panel?

[jon_010101]

I would not have thought that a Toyota would be expensive to maintain, but then things like a Celica All Trac Turbo as well as the older turbo Supras are not you run of the mill Corollas that require simple oil changes and just unleaded gas.  That Celica, the way I remember it had an awesome stereo.....some subwoofer in the middle of the dash or was it in the middle of the back panel?

The problem with maintenance is that they are tremendously dense cars, and quite over-engineered.  Weighs around 3300 lbs despite being very tiny.  Engine compartment is packed, even a spark plug change requires removal of the intercooler.  Timing belt changes require an engine pull to do correctly.

You are right about the stereo, the Fujitsu/Toyota "System 10" had 10 speakers, including an 8" subwoofer in each door.  A 220 Watt, 6-channel  amplifier under the passenger seat, and separates (mid+tweeter) front and back.  It sounded excellent when new, but the foam surrounds deteriorated significantly over time.  For 1990 it was quite impressive, especially in a $25k car.

I wish I could have bought it... it was in stellar condition.  But I'd have needed to do some audio liquidation to justify it, not to mention insurance, and rent for another garage spot ... wasn't really in the cards.

[Folsom]

If I lived in San Fransisco I might actually want an automatic....

The only turbos I would want to own are all brand new, or a brand new car, unless I had a lot of money to play with. Old turbos and the cars they are on are usually just trouble. There is just so much extra plumbing, bearings, etc... Everything has to be better for the forced induction, expensive injectors, etc....

Car stereos have come along way.... Most stock ones now are better than after market crap people but in older vehicles. There are so many with subwoofers, amplifiers, etc... Actually the Delco decks in GM vehicles have been used for aftermarket with an adapter to attach amplifiers because of high level signal, with DAC and transport parts better than most after market decks have.