Gainclone or traditional high quality power amp?

rajacat · « **on:** 26 May 2006, 04:04 pm »

How do the Gainclones or class T amps compare with, in sound quality, to a traditional SS amp such as the Odyssey Stratos.

Raja

JLM · « **Reply #1 on:** 26 May 2006, 04:42 pm »

Your question is extremely board and open to many varying opinions.

(See the current "Topics that start pissing contests" thread elsewhere.)

woodsyi · « **Reply #2 on:** 26 May 2006, 04:59 pm »

Quote from: JLM

Your question is extremely board and open to many varying opinions.

Broad question just gets you stock answers: It's not the topology but implementation that will determine the sound..........

rajacat · « **Reply #3 on:** 26 May 2006, 05:23 pm »

Well..... It seems that I won't get very far with this topic. I'm in the market for a new amp and I haven't had the opportunity audition a gainclone but I'm just trying to get a feel for them without having to purchase one, a difficult situation. It's funny though, but I'd like to find that pissing contest between the Gainclones, t amps, d amps and traditional SS amps. I'll leaves tube amps out of the mix for now because I want to do the tube preamp/SS amp thing.

Raja

woodsyi · « **Reply #4 on:** 26 May 2006, 05:40 pm »

Raja,

My understanding is that Gainclones and T-amp properly executed gets you very close to more traditional amps of class a and ab (perhaps D as well) amps for tenth of the money. I equate them to IKEA stuff -- great value right after college until you settle down (with a wife usually) and you replace them with more "traditional" furniture. Some claim IKEA furniture is as good as any and keep them. Most replace them when they can afford better. Is traditional furniture functionally better than IKEA furniture? You make the call.

rajacat · « **Reply #5 on:** 26 May 2006, 06:07 pm »

Quote from: woodsyi

Raja,

My understanding is that Gainclones and T-amp properly executed gets you very close to more traditional amps of class a and ab (perhaps D as well) amps for tenth of the money. I equate them to IKEA stuff -- great value right after college until you settle down (with a wife usually) and you replace them with more "traditional" furniture. Some claim IKEA furniture is as good as any and keep them. Most replace them when they can afford better. Is traditional furniture functionally better than IKEA furniture? You make the call.

Woodsyi'

Thanks for the response. I was going to try one of the "alternative" amps that have become hot topics but the used market seems to be flooded with traditional amps at good prices so they have started to attract my attention. Some of these amps come from established companies with lengtly transferable warranties. I don't want to get into "amp rolling" and would prefer something that I could live with for a number of years.

Raja

Paul_Bui · « **Reply #6 on:** 26 May 2006, 07:14 pm »

Quote from: rajacat

Woodsyi'

Thanks for the response. I was going to try one of the "alternative" amps that have become hot topics but the used market seems to be flooded with traditional amps at good prices so they have started to attract my attention. Some of these amps come from established companies with lengtly transferable warranties. I don't want to get into "amp rolling" and would prefer something that I could live with for a number of years.

Raja

Why do you think the used market seems to be flooded with traditional amps?

Bemopti123 · « **Reply #7 on:** 26 May 2006, 08:05 pm »

What sort of speakers are you trying to power with these amps?

This is the biggest question that no one has bothered to ask.

I say gainclone sort of amps are EXTREMELY sensivite to load they see. When they are partnered correctly, they can make regular, behemoth size and weight SS amps sound sluggish in comparison.

When inappropriately paired, they sound punny without control.

When paired with sensitive speakers that are of the horn loaded type with fullrange drivers....especially with horn designs, they sound shouty.

Digitals, I am not too convinced with but they do a credible job in running speakers that even heavy weight 200 watt per channel amps have problems dealing with (digital amps seem to see the load differently, eventhough they seem to be of the low wattage type)...but do have issues fleshing out frequencies such as the most important midrange properly and thus need some sort of device that will tune it to put out more midrange, typically a tubed preamp.

I have seen someone advertising a 200+ watt per channel opchip design in Audiogon....according to his write up, his design can run those speakers that other op-chip amps are unable to. That sounds intriguing, but then if you have these sort of speakers, you might be suited going the traditional SS route or Digital route.

Beware of digital amps that are slapped together...just because it is almost idiot proof to put components together on the cheap, execution and voicing of components is what an expert designer might give you and something that no low cost can make up for.

rajacat · « **Reply #8 on:** 26 May 2006, 09:35 pm »

My speakers are the Ascend 340SE's (90db) which are not a difficult load. Whatever amp I choose, I will want to pair it with the tube preamp (Mapletree 3A SE) that I own.

JDUBS · « **Reply #9 on:** 26 May 2006, 09:54 pm »

This is a pretty funny question. Its been covered so many times in so many places....and, of course, there is no answer to it.

I like chip amps, but my exposure is limited to a Red Wine Audio Clari-T.

I'm driving 109db horns with it and the sound is quite exceptional. Preamp is a transformer-based passive, but I just purchased a Welborne tubed battery-powered preamp which I'm anxious to try out.

I'm also buying a Charlize t-amp. That ones gotten quite a bit of praise, so I'm looking forward to trying that one out as well.

One thing I do like about the t-amps is the ability to power them with a battery. Eliminates any issues with power conditioning, power cords, etc.

GHM · « **Reply #10 on:** 26 May 2006, 10:19 pm »

That's a tough one Raja. Your speaker's specs state a minimum of 35wpc.
You may want to stick with a traditional amp or as Bemo suggests a high powered gain clone.

Only you can know what works for you. The Odyssey Stratos is a nice sounding amplifier. Too my ears it has a warmish round sound. I've listened to it and a matching Odyssey preamp at a friend's home using my GMA Europas, his QUAD and Paradigm monitors. It and the Chip Amps are two different sounds. Neither is wrong unless matched with the wrong components. You have to look at a system as one piece not as separates.

The only way you'll know if it will work ...is if you try it. So you may have to do some swapping before you settle on the right sound that you're looking for.
I'll have to settle with the IKEA stuff

... as it does more for me than the traditional equipment I've owned in the past.

The Gainclones have a single ended class A SS sound IMHO,YMMV,FWIW. Most aren't built for tough loads or wild impedance swings. They are ruthlessly revealing of upstream components and will not hide any problems if they exist. Both can be terrific amplifiers in the right system.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #11 on:** 27 May 2006, 08:40 am »

Quote from: rajacat

My speakers are the Ascend 340SE's (90db) which are not a difficult load. Whatever amp I choose, I will want to pair it with the tube preamp (Mapletree 3A SE) that I own.

What type of music do you mostly play ?

G Georgopoulos · « **Reply #12 on:** 27 May 2006, 09:32 am »

How do the Gainclones or class T amps compare with, in sound quality, to a traditional SS amp such as the Odyssey Stratos.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gainclones are good but not as good as some traditional ss amps
compared to tubes they are better lower distortion etc

it all comes down to how they sound if you like what you listen (including tubes) why
not a gainclone these chip are some of the best chips on audio
chip design

Regards

Bemopti123 · « **Reply #13 on:** 27 May 2006, 11:42 am »

I say, invest about $600 in a affordable digital all in one like the Sharp EX-SD111 that cost about $100-125 and in a Gainclone up chip type of amp ~500-600 and check what you like. Depending on the decision, you can flip back both of them for the same price and winding winning in the end.

The best way of finding out is trying these amps with your speakers. I am sure they will be an eye opening experience in comparison to the Odyssey...I have heard an Odyssey at a friend's place and it was, a tad too fat bottomed, or boring soundwise for me.

PS: If you lived around me, I could have lend you both of these sort of amp so you can see what you liked.

Paul

JLM · « **Reply #14 on:** 27 May 2006, 11:55 am »

JDUBS,

The Clari-T is a small digital amp (had one) while examples of makers of chip amps include Scott Nixon, Peter Daniels (Audio Sector), and Dusty Vawter (Channel Islands Audio here at AC). I now own a pair of Dusty's VMB-1 40 watt monoblock chip amps (and with my 89 dB/w/m single driver speakers are a much better match than the Clari-T). Unfortunately Dusty no longer makes the VMB-1s (he's not a great lover of single driver speakers).

Raja,

I also own Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 (should be similar to your 340SE) in a HT system and had been meaning to bring them into the audio room. Thanks to your thread I did it. The 170s had been used in many months (HT is a low priority). So at first they sounded thin and horribly hot/ragged on top, but within a few minutes the bass loosened up and the treble settled down. They still lack the bass, body, detail, and finesse of my Bob Brines FTA-2000s (which they'd better for $1400 less).

While I love the 170s (and consider them overkill for HT) I'd think that more price appropriate options exist for your 340s than $1,000 amps. But my priority is speakers first.

Dmason · « **Reply #15 on:** 27 May 2006, 02:55 pm »

Raja

A friend of mine has the same Ascend speakers, which are fantastic value for the dollar, really pretty much on their own in that respect; I suggested she try one of the "digital" receivers, and got her hooked up with one of the JVC RX-ES series of receivers which employs JVC's proprietary take on switching circuits in amplifiers. Knowing beforehand that the amp sounded genuinely amazing, turned out that with the Ascends it was a heavenly match. Truly a ValueKing combination. Really striking results that would put a smile on your face and keep mucho dinero in your pocket.

As to the above comment referencing GC/T type amps to an IKEA analogy, I am not aware of any SS A/B amp that sonically comes even close to these two topologies. Audiogon is lousy with these type of sand amps that do not appear to be selling very well these days. In my experience, a well executed Gainclone or T amp is in another league altogether. I am hardly alone in this assessment. The three above post-ers I am sure could offer personal a compari experiences.

GHM · « **Reply #16 on:** 27 May 2006, 04:15 pm »

Raja ,

I noticed you want to pair your new amplifier with a tubed preamp. After some thought ...it maybe best to look at other options outside of the Odyssey amplifier..unless you like an overly warm sound.This could be too much of a good thing combining tubed preamp with Odyssey amplifier IMHO. Balance is the key ..too much one way or the other can make the music either uninteresting or fatiguing.

I'm not sure of your price range,but a used Classe amplifier in the same price range as the Odyssey seems a better choice with the tubes. It is one of only a few SS amplifiers I could live with personally. It has a sweet sound but articulate with more control over the bass than the Odyssey I heard...YMMV. One of the Van Alstine amplifiers maybe worth a shot also. The one I owned sounded similar to Classe's sound . Both best the Odyssey IMHO.

rajacat · « **Reply #17 on:** 27 May 2006, 06:12 pm »

Thanks to all for your advice and comments. I have made my decision and have made the commitment to purchase a 100w/ch bridged Gainclone

. I think that it will match well with my Ascend 340SE's and Mapletree 3A SE tube preamp. I expect delivery sometime next week. If it works out OK, I will have some money available for some sort of subwoofer, perhaps a Rythmik sealed servo sub kit. The Ascends are fine but I'm getting the itch to explore some DYI OB and/or single driver designs but, of course, that is another topic. The 100w/ch may be overkill for these designs but I don't want to keep rolling amps and want something that I can live with for a number of years.

Raja

Dmason · « **Reply #18 on:** 27 May 2006, 06:29 pm »

Raja

Outstanding choice! The Mapletree dual triode Octal pre amp will provide a high calorie infusion that goes soooooo well with these types of amps. I can pretty much guarantee you will be bowled over, as I was with my ultra-fi summed channel single Octal pre amp with NOS Ken-Rad 6SN7 into T and SET amps. In fact, this preamp sounds soo fine I am thinking of building ten of them this summer for sale, here on AC.

Then, with the $$ you saved you can easily trade up to a pair of Visaton B200/Open Baffle

For Serious Musical Enjoyment. You will be into sound quality simply not available through conventional channels.

GHM · « **Reply #19 on:** 27 May 2006, 06:52 pm »

Yes I agree with Dmason..GREAT choice!! Not just because I have one either.

I was looking for the same thing over several years. I must say the Gainclone is a keeper and very musical when paired accordingly. You'll find it hard going back to an amplifier that uses run of the mill transistors and hundreds of parts, unless you buy a pair of behemoth power hungry speakers.

May I suggest getting the Blackgate N caps installed if possible...it gives these units a tad bit of wetness.

Good luck