What's the benefit of isolation under preamp/amp, except cdp

michaelv · « **on:** 15 May 2006, 06:05 pm »

Hi,
I don't fully understand all the theories behind the isolation, but it works well for me as i have isolation under my cd player. However, I'm still not sure i see the benefit of putting isolation (such as vibrapod or maple wood) under amp/pre-am or integrated amp. I hope that someone can provide knowledge and experience on this stuffs...

thanks a lot.

_scotty_ · « **Reply #1 on:** 15 May 2006, 11:07 pm »

I use a maple butcher block under both preamp and poweramp.
It is not a huge improvement with my equipement but it was a very inexpensive small improvement. For some reason a vibration absorbing pad composed of cork and rubber placed between the preamp and the maple block is the best sounding combination in my system. The amp has the same type of cork and rubber pad that I used on the preamp and tiptoe AL cones
are between the butcher block and the carpet so that weight of the amp and butcher block drives the point of the cones into the flooring under the carpet.
As to why this combination sounds better than the preamp just resting on it's feet
on the shelf or the power amp resting directly on the TipToes, I have no idea.
You can hear a change for the worse when someone picks the amp or preamp up off the butcher block however.
Scotty

michaelv · « **Reply #2 on:** 16 May 2006, 03:09 am »

thanks, scotty.

I also have my cdp resting on a maple cutting board. The whole thing then rest on 4 vibrapod. The bass is more defined even though it's just a small improvement.

I think i will try another maple wood under my integrated amp to see if it can be improved more...

Tweaker · « **Reply #3 on:** 16 May 2006, 03:46 am »

I also use maple (cutting) boards under my amp and preamp. However I have not had any good results using vibration absorbing isolation devices such as Vibrapods, Isoblocks, etc. No matter what I've tried them under they have alway had a negative affect on the sound. Especially the Isoblocks for some reason. It's probably system dependant, I suppose. What I have had good luck with are brass conepoints. I have them point down under the amp/preamp and point up under the digital gear (SB2, GW Labs DSP, and a digital equalizer). Underneath the maple boards I have small Michell Tenderfeet point down. A heck of a lot of trial and error went into that. I'm still amazed at the way the sound of an amp or whatever can be affected by using coupling and/or isolation devices. I also use small brass weights on top of my speakers, and everthing but the preamp and equalizer. They also make a huge difference in how the system sounds. It's funny because before I ever tried any of the various isolation/coupling tweaks I was completely dismissive of them. Thought it was a bunch of b.s. I don't think that any more.

michaelv · « **Reply #4 on:** 16 May 2006, 04:28 am »

tweaker, do you put maple cutting board on the floor? I have my cutting board on the shelf. When i try vibrapod alone, the sound is worst, but with wood block, it's much better. However, i have never try wood block alone.....

about brass cone, which brand do you have?

Tweaker · « **Reply #5 on:** 16 May 2006, 05:00 am »

michaelv,
I have my boards on the shelves of an audio rack using small aluminum cones between board and shelf.
The brass cones are Mapleshade. Big ones for the amps and pre and small ones for everything else. Audio Points are also recommended although I personally have never used them. They have a larger variety than Mapleshade. Both have a generous return policy.

michaelv · « **Reply #6 on:** 16 May 2006, 12:04 pm »

Thanks. I'll take a look at mapleshade. They send me catalog sometimes. Do i have to drill the board to screw in the isolation cone?

Joey B · « **Reply #7 on:** 16 May 2006, 12:50 pm »

Think of the fact that everything that isn't music with our systems is noise or distortion . Say that the system under test has 100X noise . ( causes:
1 AC
2 vibration
3 1st reflection
4 other reflection
5 substandard parts used in our components
6 ad infinitum.......)

and you make a change that causes a 4x lessening of that noise . It may be audible it may not

System 2 has 15x noise . It sounds really close to the sound of real music already ,depending on the source / software / recording . If you make that same 4x upgrade to that system the difference is amazing . where as in system 1 you can't hardly tell you changed anything .

This scenerio is probably the the source of most arguing over wheather a component or tweak has much merit . It can also be the way we listen to the music , but thats a whole nother post .

Joey B

Tweaker · « **Reply #8 on:** 16 May 2006, 07:20 pm »

Quote

Do i have to drill the board to screw in the isolation cone?

If you buy the threaded Surefeet then you will need to drill holes. My Surefeet are all unthreaded even the ones under my speakers. The threaded ones might "sound" a little better because they are really locked to the board. I don't know. I like the unthreaded ones as I can easily slip them out from underneath if I need to. (Like if I want to try something else, reposition them, or I want to remove the board). If you do buy unthreaded surefeet you will have a choice of flat bottomed or the triple point. I'm not quite sure I understand the logic behind that design but logic doesn't seem to always enter into a lot of tweaks. I use the Mapleshade heavyhats and they work amazingly well but when I tried the Heavyhat with the Triplepoint design, well, they got sent back for a refund. The results were not good. But that is with my gear using my ears. There aren't any Mapleshade products that aren't worth a try with their return policy.

tvad4 · « **Reply #9 on:** 16 May 2006, 07:28 pm »

I believe isolation has more affect on tubed gear than SS gear, but this is only based on some non-scientific experimentation in my system, and on a friend's system.

I figure if one can hear the effects of a microphonic tube by gently brushing one's finger across a volume control knob of the device (I've done it...and heard it...it wasn't subtle), then certainly smaller vibrations are having an effect, too. Isolation devices will help reduce vibration. I've had nice results with Aurios and Symposium Rollerblocks under my tube preamp and amp. Didn't have good results with brass cone products. Have never tried sorbothane nor similar absorption products. I use a Neuance isolation platform under my CDP.

sts9fan · « **Reply #10 on:** 16 May 2006, 07:30 pm »

What it does is trick your brain into thinking you hear a difference. While all along instruments more sensitive then the ear show no change. Oh yeah it also tricks your brain into thinking you spent your money wisely..

tvad4 · « **Reply #11 on:** 16 May 2006, 07:42 pm »

Quote from: sts9fan

What it does is trick your brain into thinking you hear a difference. While all along instruments more sensitive then the ear show no change. Oh yeah it also tricks your brain into thinking you spent your money wisely..

Spoken by someone who has either never tried isolation devices, or whose system is not yet resolving enough to pass along the benefits of isolated components.

Following is a link to a technical discussion of the benefits of Aurios Isolation bearings, including links to two technical white papers contained therein.

http://www.aurios.net/techtalk.htm

Tweaker · « **Reply #12 on:** 16 May 2006, 07:46 pm »

sts9fan,
Welcome to the discussion! I was wondering how long it would take for a "if it can't be measured it can't exist you're all engaging in self delusion" type would jump in and bring us all back to reality and save us all from the evil purveyors of snake oil! Thank god. michaelv you have been saved in the nick of time!

sts9fan · « **Reply #13 on:** 16 May 2006, 07:48 pm »

Please refer me to an article in a peer reviewd scientific journal.

Tweaker · « **Reply #14 on:** 16 May 2006, 07:48 pm »

Somehow I think I know where the rest of this discussion is going to be headed.

sts9fan · « **Reply #15 on:** 16 May 2006, 07:58 pm »

I'll drop it so you can continue your discussion. Although I will say that that paper you refered me to is useless. Sure these things can isolate stuff. I would never dispute that. What I would dispute is the effect on the output of the cd/dvd player. Why wouldn't the company put a hooked up cd player on the shaker and measure the output?

Tweaker · « **Reply #16 on:** 16 May 2006, 08:13 pm »

Quote

Why wouldn't the company put a hooked up cd player on the shaker and measure the output?

I'm not the one who referred you to the paper but perhaps that is a question you could pose to Aurios.

michaelv · « **Reply #17 on:** 16 May 2006, 08:29 pm »

Thanks...

I know that Vibrapod works pretty well under my DVD player , so i keep it.

Another side question which i think i will post it here:

Has anyone ever used XLR to RCA adapter? my cdp has a true balanced output (per Ayre ), but my integrated amp does not have XLR. So i was wondering if the adapter like the Cardas here would do the trick? I will call Ayre anyway.

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=oem&content_id=8&pagestring=Adapters

Tweaker · « **Reply #18 on:** 16 May 2006, 09:00 pm »

Quote

So i was wondering if the adapter like the Cardas here would do the trick?

There is one way to find out. musicdirect sells them and they also have a generous return policy. Carefull, though. Once you get on their website you are going to feel like a kid in a candy shop.
http://www.amusicdirect.com/products/search.asp?cat_id=ALL&man_id=ALL&advSearch=stdSearch&search_desc=no&keyword=cardas+xlr

tvad4 · « **Reply #19 on:** 16 May 2006, 09:41 pm »

Quote from: sts9fan

Although I will say that that paper you refered me to is useless. Sure these things can isolate stuff. I would never dispute that. What I would dispute is the effect on the output of the cd/dvd player. Why wouldn't the company put a hooked up cd player on the shaker and measure the output?

Sir, did you download and read the 32 page pdf format white paper entitled "Aurios bearings Improve CD Player Performance"?

The answers to your questions are contained therein.

Here's a link again to the webpage for those who missed it:
http://www.aurios.net/techtalk.htm

The white paper download link is at the bottom of the page.

If a peer review study found that an item was effective, but you could not personally hear a difference when using the item in your system, would you continue to use it solely because a peer review said it worked? I wouldn't. Conversely, I don't require a peer review study to confirm what my ears tells me is effective.

Can you point me to a peer review study that concludes the Aurios bearings are ineffective?

As an alternative, which takes much less effort and study, how about buying a used set, intalling them, and listening for yourself? If you don't hear any benefits, then simply re-sell them for minimal or zero loss and move on.