[Sa-dono]

I should point out that Mark Shifter made a lot of money elsewhere and does audio now because that's what he likes to do.  He has to live in China in order to keep an eye on his suppliers.  He'd like to avoid the fate of the Dunlavy folk who bought into the "Chinese cabinet" mystique, got six figures worth of unsalable junk, and went under because of it.

I, on the other hand, live right here, taking up valuable land and airspace. I support numerous wives and swarms of native-grown children, whereas Mark has only a houseful of indentured servants to oversee. It's clear where your speaker-buying dollars should go, isn't it?

Wow..great reasoning Big B. Maybe some of that money should go towards a stairmaster so you can take away that "Big" and take up less "valuable land and airspace."       I am joking..and hope you are as well....

[rosconey]

quote sando
You can think what you want...but if you put $750 into it...you're going to end up with $750 worth of sound (in comparison)  If you really think that others could pull the same sound for a lesser value, don't you think these guys would have already done it and been making a killing?  



jiminy krickits its a 60$ tweeter not a god like one,you honestly dont think danny,rick or dave couldnt make a equil speaker with those parts,all i'm saying is that its nothing special as far as parts go, i dont pretend to know a dam thing about crossovers but i do know that the above guys know speakers and would feel confident that they could easily match the sound at a reduced cost if that was the speaker for me,thats all.

[Ravi]

rosconey, a speaker is hardly a sum of the parts.  But I know what you're trying to say.  I think in this tread, your comments are a little off-topic.  The discussion is about Ref1 and VMPS 626r.   I feel your genuine enthusiasm, as I've owned Dave Ellis's excellent 1801s, but I didn't mention them as an alternative since that is irrelevent to the thread.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the subpar pictures of the Ref1s. Jackman, who owns a walnut pair of 1801s, says the Ref1s are the best looking speakers he's ever seen.  Mirror glossy finish I think he said.

Brian, I love your sense of humor man     I just get irked at some of the dealers (not John) when they over promote VMPS.  I say let the customers do more of the praising.  This will make a bigger impression on the potential customers.  You have some fantastic parts in the VMPS, and by all accounts, they should be great.

[TheeeChosenOne]

You can think what you want...but if you put $750 into it...you're going to end up with $750 worth of sound (in comparison) If you really think that others could pull the same sound for a lesser value, don't you think these guys would have already done it and been making a killing?

And I disagree about the cabinets, but then that's personal tastes. I think the cabinets by Darren Thomas are the only ones that are anywhere close to the quality.

I think I smell a dog  

I humbly agree with Sa-Dono.  Yes, good parts are important, but KNOWING how to implement them is a skill all its own that takes years to develop thru refined tweaking.

Rosconey, if you think you can pull as great a sounding/looking speaker as the Onix Ref 1 for $750 , then you should start a speaker business my friend.  I'll be the first to line up--guaranteed!  


..........Also, custom parts are all fine and dandy but not necessarily better than off-the-shelf stuff.  You can debate this point with extremely knowledgeable/highly regarded speaker designers until you're blue in the face on this one.

[John Casler]

Brian, I love your sense of humor man   I just get irked at some of the dealers (not John) when they over promote VMPS

Hey Ravi,

Remind me about this quote when you call to order your new VMPS

Quotes like this give you the "special"  discount    

[Ravi]

The plan to get a VMPS discount is working like a charm...

Like Mr. Burns would say, "EEEEExcellent Smithersss!"

[rosconey]

lets all take a chill pill,and calm down.
also some of you should take classes on how to read what is written not the way you think it is(ravi not included he can read fine).i thought i was pretty clear about my comments being from a diy angle, not starting a speaker company or other things, now go play with your stereo's

[Brad]

Ravi,

Watch out for John's 20% ON sale.....he's kinda sneaky    

[shokunin]

when will the ref1 clones start showing up-120$ for the tweeters,dont know the 5.25 driver but a substitue cant be hard to find ,say 200$ for the pair,100$ for crossover parts,130$ for parts express cabinets and 200$ to the guru of your choice for the crossover design-selahaudio-gr research-or one of the other compitent guys.750$ or less

this is not a rocket flame------the vmps have custom drivers not off the shelf ones,vmps are also made in the usa not a china(nothing bigitory just a labor ...

Parts is parts, many people have said the same thing when the dynaudio kits were out that it's the SAME drivers in kit form vs. a $3000 speaker from Dyn or some other mfg that's OEMing drivers.  Were they identical?  Listening a friend who built the kit vs. the real thing at the store revealed that the only similar thing was they way the drivers looked, sounded completely different.  It's tells you that the implementation, crossover, design, cabinet design, all that r&d that gets put into it will make/break  a speaker.  Actually, the ref 1 shares the same tweeter with the rocket 750, they sound very different in the treble even though they use the same tweeter.

By the way, I love the DIY scene, if there was a Ref 1 kit, I'd build it immediately.  I'd also considering the Ellis.  I'd do the VMPS 626R kit, but the cabinet would be too big for the room they are going in.

Just like software, all the millions in R&D, the hundreds of thousands of dollars companies pay for enterprise software licenses, and what do customers receive? A CD or two and bunch of serial numbers.

[shokunin]

I think the VMPS cabinets look good, not the best, nor the prettiest, but alright.  Ref 1's have a completely different type of finish, birds eye maple in a high gloss lacquer.  Brian's finishes seem to be a light oil/varnish mix with just a few coats rubbed on then off.  Not a thick film, and thank god, not a high-gloss thick polyurethane finish.   If you want your VMPS in high-gloss, you could always take it down to a cabinet maker and have they scratch coat the surface and spray on a compaitble top coat for high gloss.  I'm too chicken to drag my 40's to my shop and pad on some shellac on them.  Oh well.

It'll all be down to personal preference, lacquer is used a lot overseas because it's fast and easy to lay down, dries quick and can be recoated in minutes.  

The Ellis' 1801's look good, but I've seen a number where the front baffle is glued up using 2 pieces of wood that don't quite have the same grain/pattern and looks only so-so no matter how nice the figure is on one side of the speaker.  If it had bookmatched the front baffle it'd look better or used a single wide piece instead of a glued panel.

[DFaulds]

I would like to find the Onix website, but no luck.  Do you have a URL?

I can run a complete series of tests in a few minutes.  I can think of a few ways to make a 5 1/4" woofer provide some low bass, but no way of getting a lot out of it.  

So who wants to have their Onix tested?

Brian, it's nice of you to offer to test someone elses speaker, but are you willing to let someone test the woofers used in your speakers?  I'm certainly not trying to imply that there is anything wrong with any of the speakers mentioned in this thread, but I do recall several exchanges in the past on other boards where people have asked for T/S parms for your woofers, and you would not provide them.  I do follow very closely the DIY speakers available and have built many speakers in the past.  I'm sure that none of them, save the sub-woofers could compare to your better efforts, but I also know that the better quality DIY woofers available are built very well with extremely low distortion high cost motors.

Just out of curiosity, do any of your woofers use distrortion lowering shorting rings in the motor, like the Scan Speaks, Lambdas and some of the better Peerless drivers?

[shokunin]

I am trying to figure out just how much difference the Shunyata/Snake made and then how much difference was due to the Bottlehead/Sony.

Did we first hear the Shunyata/Snake and "then" add in the Bottlehead/Sony or were ...

John,

I know we added the Shunyata Hydra & Python first, but I don't remember if we had the XA777ES connected with the Hydra from the get go.  I do know for sure that the final thing we added was the Bottlehead Foreplay preamp with Telefunken ecc802s + Bolder Bybee Silver Bullet Cryod nitro cable by themselves.  

Mad Dog/Sa-dono, anyone remember if there was step #2 or if 1 and 2 were combined?  

1 - Hydra/Python - Rotel / P-Tech gear
2 - Hydra/Python - XA777ES + P-Tech gear
3 - Hydra/Python - XA777ES + Bottlehead Preamp + Bolder cables

I'm currently not using the bottlehead (yet) in my system, as all my cables are currently balanced XLRs and HT processor only has balanced outputs.

[John Casler]

I know we added the Shunyata Hydra & Python first, but I don't remember if we had the XA777ES connected with the Hydra from the get go. I do know for sure that the final thing we added was the Bottlehead Foreplay preamp with Telefunken ecc802s + Bolder Bybee Silver Bullet Cryod nitro cable by themselves.

Thanks,

I know the Shunyata Hydra & Python was in the first round but the key thing is what else was that could have been responsible for the bass difference, since it was quite noticable.

If it was the Shunyata Hydra & Python then I'll be a dealer tomorrow.  If the Sony was responsible then I would need to A/B my CDP with Mad Dogs set up.

Anyone else reading this have any "positive or negative" feedback on the Shunyata Gear??

It was pretty startling.  Mad Dog spun up the CD and immediatly everyone noticed the bass difference.  There was no A/B nessessary.

Then without much listening I think the rest was added and the "hardness" came on in the Mids/Hi's.

I should also mention that these 626Rs have not been touched.  No tuning, nothing.  This is how Brian shiped them to me.  I haven't even looked at the pots.

And as an added fun thing.  I know all of you have heard of Bi-Amping but have you ever heard of Bi-Speakering?    

Well I am Bi-Amping and Bi-Speakering.  See below:

Amp= Bryston 2B-LP
Speaker = 626R/FSTs

Amp = CineNova GRANDE
Speaker = Woofer section of RM40/TRT

Sounds pretty awsome    

[F-100]

I think the VMPS cabinets look good, not the best, nor the prettiest, but alright.

I have to concur with you on this one. I own both VMPS Super Tower/R and QSO 626 center and I've to say that the craftmanship is far below the professional level. If I'm Brian Cheney, I would fire the current cabinet maker and subcontract them out to people that can build a professional cabinet  like  Darren Thomas and Brian Bunge. If anyone who think the look of cabinet is not important,  let me tell you it is one of the major "WAF" if  you have a picky wife like mine  .

Sorry, this is not a flame toward VMPS but just stating the fact from my point of view.  Don't take it personally now

[Mad DOg]

1) plugged the Shunyata into the wall and plugged my amps and PT gear into the Shunyata...resulted in more bass

2) removed my pre and rotel and inserted the bottlehead and 777ES still using the PT gear...resulted in more edginess & brightness as well as more detail & larger, deeper soundstage

3) played SACDs using the analog outs of the 777ES in SACD mode...resulted in more airiness

pretty sure this is what i did...

[Sa-dono]

1) plugged the Shunyata into the wall and plugged my amps and PT gear into the Shunyata...resulted in more bass

2) removed my pre and rotel and inserted the bottlehead and 777ES still using the PT gear...resulted in more edginess & brightness as well as more detail & larger, deeper soundstage

3) played SACDs using the analog outs of the 777ES in SACD mode...resulted in more airiness

pretty sure this is what i did...

For some reason I thought we put the 777ES in at the same time as the Shunyata. Then we plugged the PT gear into the Shunyata. Then we switched in the bottlehead and switched to analog. Unless we plugged the PT gear into the Shunyata at the same time we hooked up the 777ES. Oh well..I'm tired...can't remember at the current time.  

[Mad DOg]

For some reason I thought we put the 777ES in at the same time as the Shunyata...

nope...the 777ES went in at the same time as the bottlehead...

[Sa-dono]

nope...the 777ES went in at the same time as the bottlehead...

So did we plug in the PT gear into the Shunyata at that same time, and then finally go analog? If so, then that sounds right.

Hurry up and become a Shunyata dealer John

[Mad DOg]

nope...the 777ES went in at the same time as the bottlehead...

So did we plug in the PT gear into the Shunyata at that same time, and then finally go analog? If so, then that sounds right.

Hurry up and become a Shunyata dealer John

i think so, but i'm not sure now...i have an idea...Shokunin, please bring your gear back so we can run another test...this time we'll record the changes we make and their associated effects...John, please bring your 626Rs back...we'll devote the entire afternoon to playing around w/ the 626s, Ref 1s and Shokunin's gear!

[John Casler]

Hurry up and become a Shunyata dealer John

Shunyata has E-Mail

And I already talked to their rep yesterday.

I should have the pricing soon.  

i think so, but i'm not sure now...i have an idea...Shokunin, please bring your gear back so we can run another test...this time we'll record the changes we make and their associated effects...John, please bring your 626Rs back...we'll devote the entire afternoon to playing around w/ the 626s, Ref 1s and Shokunin's gear!

That is a given.  Maybe we should fly Mark and Brian in for this one.

I wonder how many "views" and responses we would get with the results of that get together?

And we could end with an "arm wrestling" match  

Brian, I better get you on a strength program.  15 curls and presses with the 626.  

Then we're going to work up to the RM40s so Mark doesn't have a chance.