[Brian Cheney]

Ka7niq, please edit your post to remove the offensive political reference.

Then Davey can remove his.

[jackman]

I have looked at Linkwits speakers with some curiosity, given his excellent academic credentials.
I have heard the Audio Artistry Dvorak, and found it to be a pleasant enough speaker.
The "problem" I have with all of them is their radiation pattern.
The midrange is dipolar, but the tweeter is!
That means the midrange will have more of a room sound then the tweeter will.
In my opinion, this is like dipping a Vanilla Ice Cream cone only halfway in Chocolate.
It just bugs me.
In my opinion, if you are g ...

Quite possibly the most idiotic post I have ever read...and I have read quite a few.  Congratulations!  

[jackman]

I am not about to criticize the work of my friend Siegfried Linkwitz.  He has a different approach to speaker design than I do, for which I am grateful.

Why not listen for yourself, and decide for yourself?

Excellent suggestion.  I'm not saying one is better than the other.  Both are excellent designs.  It's great to have choices and Brian's advice is very well stated.

[JoshK]

Brian,

I am greatly sorry for provoking this derailment of this topic in your forum.  I just saw something that I thought was misinformed, and in the gesture of fairness tried to say something.  Didn't mean to cause a orion vs vmps debacle.

You are very correct about dipole having a serious drawback in the deep bass region.  You have done an excellent job of bass in your speakers (RM40s) and one thing I love about them.  I would disagree with you about some of the putty tuning vs. EQ (properly used) in terms of distortion, but that is a whole 'nother topic.  

ka7n__,

I do not care to take this topic further in Brian's forum, but if you have an open mind and want to discuss the topic of dipole vs. monopole further, we can in another thread in a public circle.  There are a few things that I think you are neglecting to see, which need to be examined IMO from a relative perspective and their impact on reverb.

[BrassEar]

Comparing the Linkwitz Orion to any VMPS design?  

[Brian Cheney]

The Linkwitz approach is very different from my design philosophy, and both achieve IMHO good results.  

I have not heard the Orion, but have read many positive comments online about it.  I would think it sounds very much the way people describe it.

The last time I met up with Siegfried was at CES a few years back, in the room of a famous designer who really embarrassed himself with his latest speaker.  So we trash-talked it right there in front of the sales rep, while the music was playing!  The poor guy just nodded.  He could hardly do otherwise, since we were speaking in German and he didn't understand a word of it.  

It was a fun, memorable day.

[BrassEar]

So we trash-talked it right there in front of the sales rep, while the music was playing!

That sounds like you Brian. At least you admit you trash talk your competitors.

[Brian Cheney]

You apparently missed the part where Sig and I were speaking in German and no one in the booth understood what we were saying.

I have taken a vow not to criticize any one else's speakers for the forseeable future, if that's any comfort to you.

[woodsyi]

I have taken a vow not to criticize any one else's speakers for the forseeable future, if that's any comfort to you.

Brian,

I am thinking of ditching the CDWG RM40 with all the latestes updates plus Bybees in for a BOSE radio.  What are your thoughts on the Bose speakers? I have room treatments.    

[Brian Cheney]

Bose 901 were the first pair of speakers I bought, in 1970.  I kept them almost 6 years.  

The truth hurts, doesn't it?

[John Casler]

Bose 901 were the first pair of speakers I bought, in 1970.  I kept them almost 6 years.  

The truth hurts, doesn't it?

If I remember correctly the "science" of the times, strongly supported Amar's assertions.

I had some too, run off a Phase Linear 400.  

Some of the Orchestral Works were mind blowing.

The police even showed up a couple times (no not the one's with Sting) during The Great Gate of Kiev.

[Tweaker]

I think Bose gets a lot of dissing that is undeserved. They produce pretty good sounding if not overpriced speakers that satisfy a need for the vast majority of people who are not audiophiles and adverse to large corporate brand name products.    
The little cube thingies are actually pretty amazing sounding for their size.

[ka7niq]

There's a rule on political forums that the first person to use Adolph Hitler as a metaphor automatically loses the debate.

ka7niq, I too was enjoying the arguement since my (very) short list of desired speakers includes both the Orions and RM30s. But WTF are you doing???

WTF am I doing ??
Well, I was trying to have a good natured debate with Krull, and give my opinions of a speaker design.
I did not glorify you know who, what is the big deal ?
Now, If I came out here in praise of the monster, I would gladly put on a Flame Suit.
I tried, as Brian suggested, to edit my post, but someone did it for me.
No big deal.
I wasn't aware that the mere mention, even in a negative way, of the monster would cause such an uproar.
Excuuuus Mee!

[ka7niq]

There's a rule on political forums that the first person to use Adolph Hitler as a metaphor automatically loses the debate.

I think the debate was lost well before that.

My goodness.  

Davey.

Well Davey, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
That's why there are a zillion speaker manufacturers, so people can take their own path.
I wasn't aware that the discussion was being "judged' as to a "winner or loser".
So, since I had no expectations of "winning" I can't be disappointed.
I still remain unconvinced that a speaker with dis similar radiation patterns is something I want to own.
I think, for me, that I shall hold on to my RM 40's
YMMV

[ka7niq]

Quite possibly the most idiotic post I have ever read...and I have read quite a few.  Congratulations!  

What is so "idiotic" about my opinion of a speaker with dis similar radiation patterns ?
Wanna try and defend your "position" ?
Ever hear what a Leslie does to sound ?
How can it be good for the sound to deliberately involve the room for only part of a speakers range ?

[ka7niq]

ka7n__,

I do not care to take this topic further in Brian's forum, but if you have an open mind and want to discuss the topic of dipole vs. monopole further, we can in another thread in a public circle. There are a few things that I think you are neglecting to see, which need to be examined IMO from a relative perspective and their impact on reverb.


I...

With all due respect Josh, there is nothing that I am "failing" to see.
I see the design in question quite clearly.
Any design that involves the rear walls of the room in part of it's range, and not in another, is not the speaker for me.
This is nothing new, having been done by Dahlquist, ESS in the Transtatic, and yes, in the direct/reflecting Bose 901.
My sonic direction is to take as much of the room as possible out of the equation.
I am sure Dr. Linkwitz design will suit some just fine, just not me.

I find it odd that audiophiles will dis a well known direct/reflecting design, yet embrace a design that is similar in it's radiation pattern.
The speaker in question is a direct/reflecting design, no matter how you Jazz it up.
I am sure that Amar Bose could justify his design academically.
That dont mean I have to embrace it.

I know there are many happy owners of the speaker in question, just as there are some who have Bose 901's and think they are at sonic nirvana.
They seek a different version of "heaven" then I.

"Heaven" for me, sonically, is a speaker with controlled, uniform directivity, in both the vertical/horizontal planes of the forward hemisphere only.
I do not want my rear walls involved.
I will not buy anything else.
You will not alter my opinion, nor shall I alter yours.
Chris

[JohninCR]

ka7niq,

It is precisely in the areas that you profess to be your version of heaven where OB speakers enjoy a significant advantage over boxes.  The OB  radiation pattern leads to inherent controlled directivity and less interaction with your room.

If what you say about your taste is true then you are a perfect candidate for converting to boxless.

[warnerwh]

After a couple of mentions of room correction and mass damping of the passive radiator I need to say something.

In my system alot of you know I'm using the Behringer DEQ 2496 for room correction.  

No matter what setting the Behringer is at, assuming the same electronics, the mass damping must be adjusted properly. This can't or doesn't seem to be able to be done with the digital equalization.  In my experience the mass damping must be properly adjusted as there seems to be no way to get the sound right with just the equalization.  If the mass damping is off I don't know how to correct for it with the DEQ.

If someone can explain why this is wrong and what I am doing wrong I'm all ears.  Thanks

[JoshK]

With all due respect Josh, there is nothing that I am "failing" to see...

...I still remain unconvinced that a speaker with dis similar radiation patterns is something I want to own...

Well then explain how a monopole's radiation patterns is constant above and below the baffle step.

[ka7niq]

With all due respect Josh, there is nothing that I am "failing" to see...

...I still remain unconvinced that a speaker with dis similar radiation patterns is something I want to own...

Well then explain how a monopole radiation patterns is constant above and below the baffle step.

Read all about it here Josh.
http://www.geocities.com/kreskovs/PowerResp.html

The directional characteristics of a driver are determined by baffle size and driver diameter.
No getting around it Josh, as the frequency goes up, the tweeter gets more directional.