[Eric5676]

Hollywood support is irrelevant. The audio (and now video as well) industry is a lot bigger than the Hollywood studios. Once this thing is out they will have to support it. Otherwise they will be just hacked. They never planned to support videos in iPods but now they do.

Content is what matters most.

"One this thing is out."...well, you can't put it out with content and support to begin with, obviously, so your statement of irrelevance couldn't be more wrong, at least the way you've stated it thusly. Where else do we get our movies from, besides Hollywood?

I'm drooling over the hardware and potential here, but until there's woefully little concrete information or facts right now.

I think it would be amazing to see this "format war" get rocked on its side suddenly if this potential format here suddenly came out of nowhere and took off.

Sorry. This is the link where it says when it will be released:

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2005/11/24/maxell_holo_storage/

Dare I ask about cost? This is going to cost an arm and leg. The hardware you would need to use these disc wil be absurd.

I truly believe this thing is still vaporware, or at least a step removed from it, and probably years away from being a major force...if it ever really shows up and takes off.


http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=824

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=1626

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=897

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=948

Some interesting points from another forum where this subject came up recently.

[levesque]

Q.

Remember the Pioneer Elite 79AVi on AVS? I got one 2 months BEFORE it was out on the market officially. There was only 3 demo units for all North America, and I got one.  

Same thing with the Pio Elite Blu-Ray demo player... But I'm under a NDA, so I can't say more then I just did.  

If you have a display or scaler which properly apply 3-2 pulldown, then there is no difference at all between 1080i and 1080p. Both formats are encoded in 1080p, so it's really easy to reconstruct 1080p from the Toshiba HD-DVD players. Nothing "mysterious". SD-DVD players are all doing that btw with 480i since a long time, so we are just starting doing it with 1080i also.

The problem is to find displays and scalers doing it properly today, and not simple "Bob" resulting in a loss of resolution (like the DVDO VP30 is doing for example, and losing resolution with vertical interpolations). There is a handful only of displays able to do it today the way it should w/o loosing resolution.

But all the manufacturers will come out soon with 1080p displays and do their own proprietary solutions (like the new DRC in the Sony Ruby that is dealing properly with a 1080i signal), or simply use one of the 3 chips on the market doing it: Gennum VXP, Realta HQv, National Semi Conductor AVC2510. The later is selling for 49$ a piece, so we should see it in alot of displays soon.

So with the good video processing in your display or scaler, then there is no difference between HD-DVD disks encoded in 1080p, coming out at 1080i, and then properly put back to 1080p, and a Blu-Ray disk outputting 1080p directly.

I've seen both, directly to my Sony Ruby, and passing through a Gennum VXP scaler. No differences between both formats.

I will buy both formats, and don't care who will won or loose "the war". All I want is HD disks and picture quality. But those are plain facts. I have one of the best 1080p projector on the market right now, and don't care about using a Gennum scaler in my system if that is what I need to get the best picture quality today. I have 1080p today with HD-DVD disks.

BTW Q. Those arguments about both formats are so futile. 98% of the people out there that will buy a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD player don't have the display to really appreciate the difference today between 480i and 1080i, and even less between 1080i and 1080p. That's why people are "not impressed". It's because of the displays they use, and their poor internal video processing. It's not because of the HD players...

34" CRTs tv or 720p projectors are not able to properly treat/downscale 1080i or 1080p to 720p w/o losing vertical resolution. So people with those kind of displays won't see a difference at all between both formats, be it BD or HD-DVD. Because their displays are not able to deal properly with BOTH 1080i or 1080p!

For example, I was able to compare a Panny AE900 (720p), Optoma H79 (720p) and the Sony Ruby (1080p) with HD-DVD disks (always sending 1080i), and the difference was major, because the two  720p projectors are not able to deal properly with the 1080i/p signal. And I'm not talking about my 34" Toshiba CRT TV. Then it was not even funny.

[Eric5676]

Q.

Remember the Pioneer Elite 79AVi on AVS? I got one 2 months BEFORE it was out on the market officially. There was only 3 demo units for all North America, and I got one.

Just curious: Did you fall into the school of people that were kind of trashing the Pioneer 79 (I felt somewhat unfairly) via nitpicking or do you think it's a good player?

Do you think the 59 is still better, overall?

Same thing with the Pio Elite Blu-Ray demo player... But I'm under a NDA, so I can't say more then I just did.

Ah, I see.

If you have a display or scaler which properly apply 3-2 pulldown, then there is no difference at all between 1080i and 1080p. Both formats are encoded in 1080p, so it's really easy to reconstruct 1080p from the Toshiba HD-DVD players.

Implementation and how it's done always is the key on any of this, definitely.

 Nothing "mysterious". SD-DVD players are all doing that btw with 480i since a long time, so we are just starting doing it with 1080i also.

The problem is to find displays and scalers doing it properly today, and not simple "Bob" resulting in a loss of resolution (like the DVDO VP30 is doing for example, and losing resolution with vertical interpolations). There is a handful only of displays able to do it today the way it should w/o loosing resolution.

True. Although I think salute has to go out to DVDO's new ABT102 chip and what it does for SD material and especially video related material.

But all the manufacturers will come out soon with 1080p displays and do their own proprietary solutions (like the new DRC in the Sony Ruby that is dealing properly with a 1080i signal), or simply use one of the 3 chips on the market doing it: Gennum VXP, Realta HQv, National Semi Conductor AVC2510. The later is selling for 49$ a piece, so we should see it in alot of displays soon.

Lots of varying opinions on this, but I felt like the growing consensus out there was favoring the Realtas, with certainly no slighting or disrespect to any of the rest of those...

What say you?

So with the good video processing in your display or scaler, then there is no difference between HD-DVD disks encoded in 1080p, coming out at 1080i, and then properly put back to 1080p, and a Blu-Ray disk outputting 1080p directly.

Yup.

I've seen both, directly to my Sony Ruby, and passing through a Gennum VXP scaler. No differences between both formats.

I will buy both formats, and don't care who will won or loose "the war". All I want is HD disks and picture quality. But those are plain facts. I have one of the best 1080p projector on the market right now, and don't care about using a Gennum scaler in my system if that is what I need to get the best picture quality today. I have 1080p today with HD-DVD disks.

You're very fortunate to be in a position like that.

BTW Q. Those arguments about both formats are so futile. 98% of the people out there that will buy a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD player don't have the display to really appreciate the difference today between 480i and 1080i, and even less between 1080i and 1080p. That's why people are "not impressed". It's because of the displays they use, and their poor internal video processing. It's not because of the HD players...

How about 80 percent studio support out of the gate favoring Blu-Ray in addition to virtually every leading notable consumer electronics company?

Here's a simple fact: Had Microsoft not intervened and bailed out HD-DVD from the debacles known as IFA 2005 and CES 2006...HD-DVD would not be here right now.

It's nothing against the HD-DVD format in and of itself. But Hd-DVD needs better hardware than crappy Toshiba. They've been a mediocre and quality-inconsistent company for many years. RCA/Thompson making clones of that same crap isn't a choice, either.  Even Sanyo, hardly another name that inspires confidence when it comes to QUALITY...has backed out.

And that's all there is for HD-DVD for the forseeable future: Being carried by a handful of second rate and third rate CE companies in low end stores like a Wal-Mart where no one who cares about quality consumer electronics would ever be caught dead in.

Beyond that, HD-DVD has ONE exclusive studio (Universal) and adds up to about 40 percent overall studio support and NO leading consumer electronics companies to speak of vs. the BDA side.

How "futile" and "meaningless" are these facts, truly?  

And what does Microsoft know about home theater? Honestly?

No MS? No HD-DVD. No needless "format war." Those are the facts.

This is strictly an early adopter market for the forseeable future for BOTH formats.

34" CRTs tv or 720p projectors are not able to properly treat/downscale 1080i or 1080p to 720p w/o losing vertical resolution. So people with those kind of displays won't see a difference at all between both formats, be it BD or HD-DVD. Because their displays are not able to deal properly with BOTH 1080i or 1080p!

I can assure you that on my 34XBR960 I can easily see and discern the difference between a high quality, non bit rate starved HD signal vs. anything else.

The only times I can be fooled is if I'm using my Onkyo DVSP1000, upconverting to 1080i on STIRLING reference material like Fifth Element Superbit and some other odds and ends. Even at that rate, I can still perceive some differences.

OF COURSE any differences are going to be dramatically pronounced if you're on large front projector screens and the rest of it. No one would dare argue or contest otherwise.

But I know when the times comes and I get my BR player in here...I WILL see and appreciate the PQ right away.

For example, I was able to compare a Panny AE900 (720p), Optoma H79 (720p) and the Sony Ruby (1080p) with HD-DVD disks (always sending 1080i), and the difference was major, because the two 720p projectors are not able to deal properly with the 1080i/p signal. And I'm not talking about my 34" Toshiba CRT TV. Then it was not even funny.

No doubt.

[Ears]

Q....its 90% BD support , and around 42% hd dvd support.

There are only 25GB bd's being made with M-peg2 so far....so if they look identical....that is a great plus for BD....not hd dvd which is using VC1.

The second wave of Warner titles on BD this summer will be on VC1....which would be a  some what fairer comparison.

I am buying an Optoma H-81 true 1080p dlp pj that does not wobulate in July or August....and in the fall when there are more 50gb BD's available using both VC1 and M-peg2.....the real true comparrisons of the formats will be legit at that point.

[Eric5676]

Q....its 90% BD support , and around 42% hd dvd support.

I try to stay ultra conservative with my figures. Why hit people over the head with how absurdly lopsided this thing truly is?

There are only 25GB bd's being made with M-peg2 so far....so if they look identical....that is a great plus for BD....not hd dvd which is using VC1.

The second wave of Warner titles on BD this summer will be on VC1....which would be a  some what fairer comparison.


I am buying an Optoma H-81 true 1080p dlp pj that does not wobulate in July or August....

That's news to me!

Need details...

...and in the fall when there are more 50gb BD's available using both VC1 and M-peg2.....the real true comparrisons of the formats will be legit at that point.

Indeed. I will be eagerly looking out for your posts around that time.

[levesque]

Q.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just really happy I can now use true HD disks with my video chain, be it BD or HD-DVD, I don,t really care. We should ALL be happy that HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are coming out this year, instead of trying to prove one format better then the other.

We will have HD on disks by the end of summer on Blu-Ray, and HD-DVDs are already out! We should all be happy!

Can we all agree that we are living exciting times? My HT friends can't believe the PQ I have with those players each time they come to visit. Jaw-dropping.

Exciting times. And a meaningless debate IMHO.

[Eric5676]

Q.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just really happy I can now use true HD disks with my video chain, be it BD or HD-DVD, I don,t really care. We should ALL be happy that HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are coming out this year, instead of trying to prove one format better then the other.

I'm not trying to prove anything. I simply post and discuss the facts and I think they speak for themselves, really.

Yes, I'm happy that HD is here, but...not yet. There's a catch.


I find this so-called format war to be a needless delay for the industry. No one wanted it. The industry itself didn't want it and for good reason.

SACD vs. DVD-A ring a bell?



It's a waste of time. All thanks to Microsoft.

It's a needless delay and complication based on nothing.

Both FORMATS are good. BR is clearly better on paper from a technical point of view. That's a fact.



Even I would early adopt for the first time in my life if we had one HD format ready to go, no questions asked.  



I want HD badly, but I'm not willing to buy two players, especially when one format leaves me with no choice but to buy trash like Toshiba or RCA.

I can wait on Universal Studios to get a clue and go with BR and have 80 percent studio support right out of the gate. That's basically what it comes down to: You buy HD-DVD if you just can't wait for Universal Studios. That's all there is to it.

Either that, and/or you just have money to blow and it doesn't matter. That's the other possibility.



Personally, I could afford it if I wanted to, but I simply refuse to do it, for any prices. I just don't accept mediocrity or trash, and that's what those Toshiba players and RCA clones are. Mediocre hardware from second and third rate consumer electronics companies.

All facts.

We will have HD on disks by the end of summer on Blu-Ray, and HD-DVDs are already out! We should all be happy!

Again: Yes and no. This is an overly simplistic point of view from someone who clearly has almost no limits on how much money they can spend on their toys.

More power to you, but you certainly aren't speaking for a vast majority by any means. You're in a VERY fortunate position. (blessed/lucky whatever you want to call it.


I simply won't be completely happy until this nonsense is overwith and MS and Sony get their little ego war out of the way and we can all move forward without any guessing games or looking over our shoulders.

(Although the way it's so heavily stacked in BR's favor really makes this academics, at best.)


Some of us don't have unlimited money to just throw around whenever we feel like it on expensive toys at whim.

That's the bottom line. Some of us have to use some care and discernment before throwing money around.

Can we all agree that we are living exciting times? My HT friends can't believe the PQ I have with those players each time they come to visit. Jaw-dropping.

Exciting times. And a meaningless debate IMHO.

You're right. There is no debate, really, once you start looking at all the facts honestly and objectively.






My criteria is very simple and I suspect I'll be speaking for a lot of people shy of the high end, early adopter elitist that can throw money around with abandon:

I'll be excited and know HD has fully arrived when I can buy ONE player that does it all. From a leading consumer electronics company of my choice.

I don't care how that's done.

It can either be a universal player that does both formats or when this silly format war is done. (And BR should have already won, by ALL rights, sans the MS factor.)


I simply refuse to buy two players, especially when the second player (HD-DVD) comes from junky companies. Not even an option as far as I'm concerned. I don't pay any sum of money for garbage.