[ka7niq]

I was reading one of many Internet threads yesterday.
The original poster was looking for the "magik" amp/cable combo to tone down his speakers.
I used to own the very speakers he was "suffering with".
I too suffered with them, until I finally realized that the tweeter was running 3 to 4 db hotter then the rest of the speaker.
There is no "magik" amp/cable combo that is going to "fix" these.
And so the poor audiophile will spend many dollars to find this out.

If only he had VMPS speakers, he could simply reduce his levels to match his room/amp combo.

I almost think Congress should make it Illegal to sell speakers w/o level controls.
I think it is cruel and unusual punishment
Thank God we own VMPS !

[mcrespo71]

So don't keep us in suspense.....what is the other speaker here?

[ka7niq]

So don't keep us in suspense.....what is the other speaker here?

well ..... since you asked, it is a B&W CDM 1NT, a  2 way stand mount with a Kevlar 6.5 inch driver, and a Nautilus metal dome tweeter running hot as heck.
I used to own one.
It has no adjustments.
Even running my subwoofers hard couldnt provide enough upward masking to make up for the sheer brightness of this speaker.
 My old B&W 801's had both midrange and tweeter controls, and one could actually tune them for best sound, in your room, with your own equipment.
Of course, so do my VMPS RM 40's!
My Von Schweikerts also have an adjustable tweeter at least.

I dont believe any speaker designer can possibly predict how his speaker will sound in a wide variety of rooms/equipment, etc.
Thats why I think it prudent to make a speaker adjustable.
Your speakers are adjustable, arent they ?

[warnerwh]

That's a great point about being able to adjust your speakers. I've read people claim that it's something else in the signal path. Well the room is something else in the signal path to if you ask me.  The room also has a very audible effect on the sound.

Level controls and their advantages far outweigh their disadvantages.  I'm surprised any speaker designer would build speakers without them too.  

And people do spend a ton of money trying to get their speakers to sound right by changing electronics or wire when the culprit is the speaker/room. I find it kind of amusing sometimes.  It's obvious that most of us, including me, need to learn the hard(and expensive) way.

[John Casler]

I almost think Congress should make it Illegal to sell speakers w/o level controls.
...

While we at VMPS are not politcal or even politically correct (as if everyone didn't already know).

We have succeeded in getting a "Cheney" in the White House, and if it hadn't've been for his little hunting accident,   we'd probably have had that very legislation passed already.

We do have some VMPS at the NSA, CIA and the FBI, but I am not at liberty to divulge.  (You know the old "if I tell you, I'll have to off you" routine )

I can say that the persons who ordered said speakers, insisted that they be able to "disappear" when in use.

So with VMPS at the CIA, NSA, and FBI in DC, we have CDWG and PRs on RM30's 'n, RM/x's, and all have SR71 in their MLS, with FSTs.

If you understand "initial" here,

"JAC"

[woodsyi]

That's a great point about being able to adjust your speakers. I've read people claim that it's something else in the signal path. Well the room is something else in the signal path to if you ask me.  The room also has a very audible effect on the sound.

Level controls and their advantages far outweigh their disadvantages.  I'm surprised any speaker designer would build speakers without them too.  

And people do spend a ton of money trying to get their speakers to sound right by changing electronics o ...

I was fooling around with my amps on the ribbons:  RA extreme Hurricanes, ARC VT100 and Sophia EL 34.  Everyone of these amps required adjustment of the treble pot to balance.  I keep the mid all the way open since adding CDWG.  I like the fact that we have the pots for adjustment.  On the other hand, I like the sound of the mid panels so much better with the pot all the way open.  This leads me to believe that the pots while benficial does take some air out of the presentation when current is restricted.  I am thinking about taking the mid pot all the way out of the loop and possibly upgrading the treble pot with an after market unit that can handle the current requirement, which I hope is very little for the treble pot.

[John Casler]

Woodsyi brings out some good points and there are other methods and ordering options for some of the speakers that allow you to remove the L-pads.

Ordering "DIRECT DRIVE" means you can get the speakers without L-pads.

Also if you order the RM40 with the "PBS" (Powered Bass System), you can elect to not have the L-Pad on the tweeter/MR, since you will control that "blend" by adjusting the bass amp.

[nathanm]

I don't think I've ever seen a picture of the adjustments on the back of a VMPS speaker.  Does such a thing exist?

[Tweaker]

Ordering the VMPS direct drive as John Casler mentioned and using a digital equalizer like the Behringer DEQ2496 would be the way to go. I will probably be removing the adjustment pots from my RM2s in the near future as I feel they are no longer necessary with the Behringer.

I almost think Congress should make it Illegal to sell speakers w/o level controls.

 I think Congress should make it illegal to sell speakers without a digital equalizer!

[warnerwh]

"I think Congress should make it illegal to sell speakers without a digital equalizer!"

Ditto, learn how to use it properly and you will never go back to listening to so much of your room.

[mcrespo71]

Your speakers are adjustable, arent they ?

No, I own Neat acoustics, which are not adjustable.  It doesn't bother me at all, but I can appreciate speakers that are adjustable.

[Dr. Krull]

My old B&W 801's had both midrange and tweeter controls, and one could actually tune them for best sound, in your room, with your own equipment.

I know you're familiar with Floyd Toole's work because you often have quoted it.  As such, you should be aware that correcting for on-axis high frequency balance (with an adjustable pot) is a band-aid fix at best.

The proper way to assure that a speaker works in a variety of acoustic environments is to design it properly.  According to Toole, uniform power response is very important.  Unfortunately, this aspect of speaker design is seldom discussed or addressed adequately in most commercial designs.

http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/Loudspeakers&RoomsPt2.pdf

-Krull

[nathanm]

You guys are letting me down.  You don't sound like proper audiophile crackpots with this talk!  Adjustments?!  Blasphemy!  Next thing you know you will be saying that tone controls are not a mortal sin!  Adjustments are supposed to be in the form of reading reviews, buying and selling tens of thousands of dollars in equipment, employing bizarre objects without any apparent audio connection and never being quite happy with any of it.  How can you replace that kind of joy with a stinking potentiometer?

[John Casler]

I know you're familiar with Floyd Toole's work because you often have quoted it.  As such, you should be aware that correcting for on-axis high frequency balance (with an adjustable pot) is a band-aid fix at best.

The proper way to assure that a speaker works in a variety of acoustic environments is to design it properly.  According to Toole, uniform power response is very important.  Unfortunately, this aspect of speaker design is seldom discussed or addressed adequately in most commercial designs.

http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/Loudspeakers&RoomsPt2.pdf

-Krull

Hi Krull,

Floyd was playing "perfect world", but there is no such thing.  Anyone who thinks a single speaker design can do it all if it is designed well enough, hasn't a clue.  It simply cannot be done.

In fact even "uniform" power response is only good within a certain decibel range due to the limitations of the human ear/brain.

Read some Fletcher/Munson to see that even if the power response is "uniform" it will not be correct or adequate at certain power levels.

Additionally the human hearing mechanism changes during the lifespan so that no matter what you might "deem" correct, for one, may not be for another.

No doubt, any and all "manipulation" of signal and response are "band aids", (excuse the "pun" but literally) but on occasion we might find they are the lesser of evils in specific situations.

There is absolutley NO argument, that a pot will degrade the signal, but when the option is hearing an imbalance, or hearing the balance you want to hear, the options are limited.

If you are not a speaker designer, and can't build your own speaker to fit your own hearing (as well as system and room) then the next best thing is the ability to make small corrections.

VMPS addresses that in a rather unobtusive manner.

Additionally with the advent of the CDWG, the need for adjustment is now far less than in the past, but still, until ther is some way to account for decibel specific power response, versus personal hearing ability, it seems we can count on our L-pads to helps us get closer to what we want to hear.

JMHO.

[ka7niq]

I know you're familiar with Floyd Toole's work because you often have quoted it.  As such, you should be aware that correcting for on-axis high frequency balance (with an adjustable pot) is a band-aid fix at best.



-Krull

Floyd Toole also advocates tone controls, if necessary.
Isn't a midrange level pot just a form of less harmful tone control ?
I spoke to Floyd once.
I was thinking about buying some Infinity Entra ones for my sister.
Floyd was almost apologetic about them, saying they were entry level speakers, and had a rise in the presence region.'
He quickly added that I could simply correct them with my treble control!
Yeah right ... Like I actually HAVE a treble control, LOL

[ka7niq]

Ordering the VMPS direct drive as John Casler mentioned and using a digital equalizer like the Behringer DEQ2496 would be the way to go. I will probably be removing the adjustment pots from my RM2s in the near future as I feel they are no longer necessary with the Behringer.

I almost think Congress should make it Illegal to sell speakers w/o level controls.

 I think Congress should make it illegal to sell speakers without a digital equalizer!

Albert Von Schweikert told me about the Behringer EQ.
He said that EQ done in the digital domain is not subject to the same sonic degradations of EQ done analog.
Basically, he told me that with digital EQ, one can pretty much make a speaker sound how they want ?
How does the Behringer work with VMPS RM 40's ?

[warnerwh]

I can assure the the DEQ 2496 works wonderfully with the RM 40's. I output mine to a Bel Canto dac but the internal dac isn't near as bad as one may expect.

It's not as easy to use properly and takes some knowledge just to use it at all. The reward is so good there's no way I'd go without one or something similar.  The ability to adjust for amplitude variations is a wonderful tweak.

The price of about 300 bucks with the ECM 8000 microphone(necessary) is a killer bargain.  As you already know my room is pretty well treated being LEDE with bass traps in all corners. The amplitude variations are still plus or minus 10db.  Ten decibels is alot!  Then if you throw into the mix that a peak may be exactly in an area that you especially don't like you really have a problem. What brand of speaker it is may or may not even matter.

If you decide to try one I'll be happy to help you out. It's also a good idea to download the manual before it gets there and read it at least twice.  Anybody who thinks they can do as well adjusting a speaker with just room treatment and speaker/listener position has never been able to use one of these properly.

[Tweaker]

A tip about the manual; concentrate on the eq part and how to save your settings. There are a number of functions you will not want or need to worry about. You should also know that the Behringer has balanced inputs/outputs so you will need to modify your cables or buy adapters. It's the one drawback to buying gear built for pro use.

[Skynyrd]

Tweaker and Warner,

I took a close look at the Behringer DEQ2496 manual and it appears that its XLR input for the CD digital in will work with just an RCA to XLR adapter if your digital out from your DAC is an RCA of course.  That means the Behringer compensates for the specification difference between AES/BSU and S/PDIF.  Correct me if I'm wrong on that, but I think I'm right and that's a tremendous benefit--saves at least forty bucks and some whacko transformer-coupled connector piece from god-knows-who.
Sorry if I got the acronyms wrong!
The Behringer 2496 is really only good with CD's.  What do you do when you watch DVD's or listen to vinyl?
Anyway, this AESBSU/SPDIF interface is one more reason to buy one of these Behringer units.  Still on my "someday" list.  I've gotta pay off HomeDepot for the cabinets, bathtub, custom shower doors, slate and cedar for the bathroom rebuild....

Keep up the Behringer preaching!  Affordable and functional gear.  Hurrah!
And then on to the Behringer studio amplifiers.  Could be a viable replacement for my buttugly Hafler 220 now an AVA Omega3 which is 20 years old (modded about ten years ago) and farting out. Much tougher to see the PSE Studio 4 start to die at 17 years.  Much cleaner layout, nicer sound than the Omega 3, and less fix-it bills over the years.  But it's farting out every once in a while, too...

No High-end in this audiophile's future.  I'd rather have Bryston!  Still have a .5b around here somewhere..


Skynyrd "Behringer saves the poor people"

[warnerwh]

Skynard: I run the optical out from my cd player to the optical in on the Behringer. The Xlr would be better but if I'm losing anything I can't tell.

The optical output of my Behringer is then sent to a Bel Canto dac so all correction has been done in the digital domain.

Tweaker has a good point above. Also read and re read the auto eq function. You will need to get your house as quiet as a dead mouse then turn the pink noise up more than you would think.

Another point I feel is important don't try to correct the entire peak or dip. You can cut back on the peaks several db but I wouldn't raise the dips more than 2 db. You will end up overdriver your speakers and/or amp if you put too much boost in.  All you're trying to do is get it closer to where it should be. This has a very positive effect.

Then you have to remember that you have a ten band parametric equalizer. This you can use to fine tune the sound. It takes practice and you have to learn what for example 700hz sounds like. You can also use the spectrum analyzer to help guide you.

I'm confident that I could challenge the designer of any speaker to go  into a room and make his speakers sound as good as he can to the owner and best this effort with little effort.  The owner could be the judge.

Room treatment if at all possible needs to be the first thing to address, not amps, digital sources or wire.