[JoshK]

Where in NNJ are you?  You should join our get togethers!

[Fenomeno]

The futures were 3 ways and used polypropylene and carbon fiber bass and midbass drivers....different animal.  Also, the tweeter may have been a Raven or Eton....the last time l heard a Raven (6-years ago) w/ cabasse drivers reminded me of a "hyperdetailed" speaker....

These ribbons are sweet and the speakers have some body or "meat on the bones" sound to them.  My previous 3 ways (carbon fiber mid and bass drivers) sounded "thin" but very open.

l need more time to do additional listening at all volumes to write more.

front end?
mmf 2.1 w/ self made acrylic platter upgrade and tweaks-grado mm/ nad pp2 phono pre w/ cap upgrade

acurus acd11 w/sound deadening and power supply cap upgrades and bypassing caps throughout

quicksilver GLA prototype using mullard 12au7 input and 12at7 drivers and svetlana(?) kt88 output (50w/ch)..output transformers same as v60 monoblocks I believe (rated to  60w)....w/ power cap upgrade from quicksilver

conrad johnson pv12 (oldest component) w/ mullard 12au7

as you can see I prefer low gain 12au7 triodes....less noise imho.

A component stays so long as it  continues to play music and boogie

Hey JoshK are you the AC member in Ramsey....if so....we are practically nelghbors.

[DSK]

Rick or Fenomeno,

What is the sensitivity and nominal/minimum impedance on the SS References?

[Fenomeno]

Nominal impedance 6.8 ohm
sensitivity 87.5-88 db/1w/1m

[Rick Craig]

Very nice narrative of your experiences. Your listening room seems to be a nice environment for enjoying music.

It just ocurred to me that your driver combination of ScanSpeak with ribbon tweeter was also used in the ProAc Future series, which ultimately proved unsuccessful. My own personal experience after auditioning a pair was that the seamless integration between midbass and tweeter just wasn't there. I hope your results are more favorable.

Keep us entertained with your saga.  

PS: What are you using for your front end?

The ProAc speakers used the ATD ribbon with a 5-6" midbass. Having used the ATD I can tell you those drivers wouldn't offer very good integration. The ATD needs a higher crossover point and works best with a  dome midrange.

[Fenomeno]

I'm on a PDA while listening so excuse the terse wording

2 corrections:

minimum impedance is 6.8 ohm!
I inadvertently refererred to The Thin Line from The Wall when I meant BITW part 1

I just listened to THE WALL side 1 again at almost clipping levels....these speakers can do macro and micro dynamlcs!

on FUTURE SOUNDS OF LONDON's ACCELERATOR re-issue w/ re-mixes the speaker PUMPS MASSIVE AIR!

WISH YOU WERE HERE becomes a new found experience w/o the narcotics

Beethoven Violin Concerto in D w/ I. Stern is reproduced in grandeur until Stern's sweet violin enters and you are swept away.  You hear him take breaths without distracting from the performance.

These tweeters DO NOT call attention to themselves.

YELLO -SOMETIMES I WISH I COULD CRY paces beautifully while preserving ALL ambient information.

ART OF NOISE  -IN NO SENSE, NONSENSE end of track 7 all movement, sounds and words are legible like you are in the space (alley) with the performers..... and another trick: at the end of track 4-iisten for what parts of conversation can be heard through the orchestra's warm up. In track 5 the sampled bass rhythm is round, full, and harmonically rich and CLEAN.
At the end of track 5-the ability to hear into the soundstage is without effort.

JOHN MCLAUGHLIN TRIO -LIVE AT ROYAL FESTIVAL HALL-listen to the drum skins excite the venue..bass is SOOOOO clean and rich.  I hear no port noise.  I hear the delicate finger work of JM and the reverberation of sounds off the venue's walls.

OK let me just say it.....this is an incredible medium (?) sized 2 way at a most ridiculous price.  I end up listening for hours at a time to the chagrin of my family.

Sweet when the music demands, they deliver just the right amount of information to play music engagingly...what they can not do is an error of omission rather than obvious flaw.  They go to 40-hz easy in my room well away from walls (4-ft to rear /7+sides) and audibly go to 31.5-hz on my Stereophile test cd though down from full output, but still noticeable.

Compared to: old JBL, Vienna Acoustics, Sonus Faber, Vandersteen, Magnepans, KEF, Meadowlark, BW, Cabasse and a slew of mid-level (nothing disparaging intended)..speakers I have owned or known well...these are just great.

I called Rick to express my pleasure and surprise....his answer....they will become a standard offering on his website.

[Rick Craig]

Rick or Fenomeno,

What is the sensitivity and nominal/minimum impedance on the SS References?

I'll post the specs on my site at a later time.

[JoshK]

Fenomeno,

I am in Jersey City Heights....I think Julien might be the one in Ramsey.

[DSK]

Thanks Fenomeno & Rick.

I read the writings of an experienced DIY speaker designer/builder in Europe who has used this midwoofer in a variety of 2-ways and 3-ways. He LOVED the warmth, weightand resolution in the bass and lower midrange from this driver (best he has heard), but heard a slight 'paper-iness' sound in the mids that he couldn't get around and eventually concluded that this driver is great for a 3-way but not so good for a 2-way. He felt it should not be used above 2khz, preferably 1.5k.

Do you hear any of this?

[Rick Craig]

Thanks Fenomeno & Rick.

I read the writings of an experienced DIY speaker designer/builder in Europe who has used this midwoofer in a variety of 2-ways and 3-ways. He LOVED the warmth, weightand resolution in the bass and lower midrange from this driver (best he has heard), but heard a slight 'paper-iness' sound in the mids that he couldn't get around and eventually concluded that this driver is great for a 3-way but not so good for a 2-way. He felt it should not be used above 2khz, preferably 1.5k.

Do you hear any of this?

I would strongly disagree; in fact, this driver has the best upper end behavior of any 7" woofer I've measured.

[Rick Craig]

This looks like an incredible speaker.  I was browsing the ACI site and saw their Sapphire XL...using scan speak drivers but smaller mid-bass...but more $$ than this speaker.  Let alone a kit!

Rick, my thoughts on HT...what would you recommend for a 7.1 setup with these?  

I could probably make front cabinets towers with just the upper cabinet volume fixed?

But what about surrounds or center?  I need wall mounted surrounds....

I keep circling on HT options...you have many good speakers/kits and it is very difficult to decide!

thx
Jim

If used in a HT system you could easily convert the mains to a floorstanding cabinet. There are a few options for the center channel depending on if you need shielded drivers or not. The surrounds could use the smaller 5.5" version for a more compact cabinet.

[Fenomeno]

Regarding paper driver sound...I do not hear it...aside from a certain forgiveness and warmth to the midrange. But as for obvious colorations?  Look to the front end first w/ these speakers....they are that neutral imho....and therefore ask (not demand) ancillary equipment to contribute their share ...make no mistake about it, all systems have some type of coloration. You would have to go a long way to find any speaker without any sonic signature (an infinite journey in fact)

If you want "electrostatic like" see through midrange, these get you a long way there without the ES drawbacks and with cone speaker characteristics. It is, ironically, the midbass driver that seems to present just the right amount of detail and finesse to compliment the tweeter.

As a dabbler in speaker design/mods and what not (w/ morel, focal, vifa and audax..) and in a world where many speakers are good and competent, I think these are special.....and just plain fun.

A long winded answer to paperiness..

[Fenomeno]

Regarding paper driver sound...I do not hear it...aside from a certain forgiveness and warmth to the midrange. But as for obvious colorations?  Look to the front end first w/ these speakers....they are that neutral imho....and therefore ask (not demand) ancillary equipment to contribute their share ...make no mistake about it, all systems have some type of coloration. You would have to go a long way to find any speaker without any sonic signature (an infinite journey in fact)

If you want "electrostatic like" see through midrange, these get you a long way there without the ES drawbacks and with cone speaker characteristics. It is, ironically, the midbass driver that seems to present just the right amount of detail and finesse to compliment the tweeter.

As a dabbler in speaker design/mods and what not (w/ morel, focal, vifa and audax..) and in a world where many speakers are good and competent, I think these are special.....and just plain fun.

A long winded answer to paperiness..

[DSK]

Fenomeno and Rick,
Thanks again. Very glad to hear that you both feel the 18W-8531G-00 is a great match with the Fountek Neo CD3 as I am very interested indeed in this speaker.

Like Smithsonga above, I had cast my eye over the ACI Sapphire XL's but felt that the Fountek may provide a more open, spacious and extended top end than the 2905/9500, and that the 6.5" Revelator would provide a bigger presentation (in my larger room) with more slam and extension than the XL's smaller 5.25" Revelator. My only concerns were that these benefits may be at the cost of the magical integration and balance that all the XL reviewers rave about, and that off-axis response would not be quite as good from the ribbon or from the larger midwoofer at its upper limits.

From your evaluation, it sounds like these concerns have not been evident in listening. Once Rick has had a chance to respond to some questions I e-mailed him about, the SS Ref may just get locked in as my next speaker  .   I then just have to get it past the she-devil ....er, I mean my wife.  

[DSK]

Forgot to mention ...the higher sensitivity and impedance of the SS Ref's (over the ACI Sapphire XL) is a bonus too.

[Rocket]

Hi Darren,

Just read your post and i'm wondering which speakers are you considering purchasing from selah audio?

My speaker boxes are completed and i'm waiting on the xovers to be completed and then it they are off to be painted.

Regards

Rod

[DSK]

Hi Darren,

Just read your post and i'm wondering which speakers are you considering purchasing from selah audio?

My speaker boxes are completed and i'm waiting on the xovers to be completed and then it they are off to be painted.

Regards
Rod

Hi Rod,
Glad to hear your new speakers are coming along.

I'm very interested in Rick's new ScanSpeak References, the subject of this thread. I'm just figuring out whether, for my situation, I am better off with the 'sealed' version or 'ported' version (I would prefer rear ported if ported) and whether to buy the speakers assembled or in kit form.

Cheers,
Darren.

[DSK]

Fenomeno,

What's the latest .... we are all drooling for more  

I have my finger poised on the trigger for the SS Ref kit from Rick, probably going 'sealed' and integrating them with my low-Q sealed sub. It has been a long journey and Rick has been a trooper indulging my endless questions (Thanks Rick   ).

On symphonic crescendos etc at volumes considered lifelike in a large-ish listening room, do you feel the SS Ref 2-ways give up a little to 3-way designs in terms of power handling and maintaining separation etc?

[Fenomeno]

These speakers were playing all weekend.  It has been quite some time since that has occured.  Fortunate scheduling allowed me to really make them sing...

Let me, however, be very clear about the question asked by DSK regarding volumes, realilstic orchestra levels, etc..

I have only heard one speaker play seriously loud levels without hint of strain or amp clipping.  These were the Vandersteen 5A playing Prokofiev's Symphony 1.  Unfortunately, the BASS module settings were not yet optimized for the room so there were some room nodes prominently lifting the bass in some parts from the nether region up to the 180hz range or so.....still impressive none the less.  

I have not heard a megabuck 20-40g speaker WITH kilowatt amps to make many claims about realistic playback levels for orchestra.  Only an orchestra itself, which is I have never heard realistically reproduced by a system...Harry Pearson is not my name.

My limitation is my amplifier.  50 watts/channel tubes or otherwise, ultimately  limits my ability to play dynamically.  However, I have been hesitant to play these REALLY loud since I believe my amp would introduce distortion on dynamic peaks before the speakers give.  I could be wrong....let me try explaining another way....

I know that they play loud with the electronic music I have pumped into them. (filling the room evenly 13'-6x23'-6x9'-0 with some cathedral ceiling in a corner)  I know that they do dynamics very well with the classical music I have played through them.  However, I do not feel I have enough juice to goose these speakers to the same electronic music loudness levels with the classical music and still retain the subtle dynamics involved in the performance.  

In Beethoven's violin concerto in D (I. Stern) the speakers play more dynamically and detailed than my previous three ways(actually 2.5 ways). Those speakers were Vince Christian Axis 10.5's with modifications made by Ric Shultz (EVS fame) and then myself.  These came to me lifted in response on the top end to reveal the detail...they were not flat therefore I brought the top end in a little.  Now, these speakers were VERY good sounding...and were more efficient than the SSR...but had loudness limitations as the midbass was only an Audax 4" carbon fiber driver running full range.  You would think, however, that their higher sensitivity and smaller dimension would yield better detail and mircodynamics.  Not so.  So, I can say the SSR eats my previous speakers for lunch when it comes to playing loudly, cleanly and dynamically on micro and macro scales.  

I also owned a pair of Magepans bi-amped with a total of 200 w/channel, separate amps for bass and treble.  A total of 1400 V/A in transformer ratings.  Not little by any means.   These played BIG and large scaled, but also broke up at some point before being realistic.  I.E. the size was big, but the loudness was limited.  Alice and Chains Unplugged sounded incredibly lifelike.  The SSR can not reproduce the instruments AS big, but they are more cohesive.

The SSR goes deep (soundstage), but NOT artificially by recessing mids.  It does the Big soundstage with less width than depth.  This, I caution, is a result of my system and preferences....I.E.  Mullard tubes and CJ Pre with Quicksilver amp, which goes for the depth and musical thing.

I do not have my system designed for high detail levels.  I do think, however a Class A amp of stature such as the Forte 4a (which I owned for a while) would be an excellent match if not the last word in harmonic/tonal richness and loudness.....however, ambient retrieval with such an amp would be outstanding I am sure.

The SSR, when compared to a 2 way I made with Focal Fiberglass 7" midbass and Morel Tweeter MDT33-(first order) (incidentally, all the speakers I have mentioned w/ exception to the Maggies, are still with Family and Friends so I am able to still regularly listen to them) have the same dynamics, less bass extension, much better bass definition and light years more refinement and retrieval of ambient low level detail.

The SSR, when compard to a home made pair of bookshelf all VIFA drivers (6.5" two way) with first order series crossover, has less coloration, less seductive warmth, but is more accurate and detailed through the entire spectrum.  The SSR plays much more loudly and has much better bass definition.  

The SSR compared to Meadowlark hot rods,  both Shearwater and Kestral models, has a more refined top end and better bass definition.  The scanspeak drivers in the Shearwater and other two ways from the late nineties/early 2000's always left me wanting for a cleaner less prominent  midrange with "musicality."  Subjective word,  but the subjective quality that leaves the stereo on nonetheless.

The SSR compared to a Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor (I am much more familiar with the Concerto which can not compare, in my opinion), seems a little more open and effortless on top.  This is by memory, however, which could be a trick thing....but I remember listening to the Auditor while the Axis 10.5 were in my listening room and listening to the first notes of BB King and thought (about the SF) there is a slight coloration in the midrange and less ambient info on top....SF will always err to the warm side of neutral rather than the sparkling side of cool. They were musical speakers, no doubt.  They did not call attention to themselves.  But they did seem to filter some information. The SF were playing through Solid State however, so all bets are off in a system comparision.  One I am not about to pay for......nor need to.  The Auditor was what I originally made my driver selection based on (increasing to the 6.5" for more extension and dynamics), hoping the ribbon would compensate for my predicted shortcomings of an Auditor playing in my room and system.

The ribbon integration with the midbass of the SSR is very good.  First rate.  I would lie if I said completely seamless.  However, I have found much worse integration in speakers designed with all types of tweeters (gold anodized, aluminum, soft dome, inverted titanium, regular titanium, origami titanium).  My skeptical belief is that a speaker that sounds very well integrated may be "filtering" information and must therefore be tested for such. These integrate very well (not perfect in my system) but do not obviously filter information. The trick is to deliver all frequencies seamlessly, effortlessly and integrated.  Stereophile's test cd will bring this out of any speaker.  Believe me when I say the SSR is not disjointed sounding and pass the even power response crossover point thing nicely.  Leaving little hint of integration problems.  The Maggie 1.5QR's were not seamless, panel and all.  These SSR beat them by a long shot in that department.  The speaker has a dark character if the recording is dark and lifted top end, if the recording is also hot.  But NEVER to a point of being fatiguing.

They do not have the last word in detail retrieval.  They are not the last word in bass extension.  They are not the last word in  2 way driver integration, though they are one of the finest in this regard for any speaker near to 3 times its price.  It all depends on how critical you listen.  For one, I  find it a struggle to pick these speakers apart since what they do, they do extremely well.  The only hitch is what they can not do.....which ain't much for a 2 way.

[DSK]

Fenomeno ......great post!!

I can see that you love these speakers, but what makes it a great post (and extremely useful to imminent buyers like me) is that you were able to remain objective and even-handed... even adding some perspective to the relevant weaknesses of this speaker. Thankyou! I have read it through several times, gleaning a little more information each time.

In my room (19'w x 24'd x 9' ceiling) my current speakers are setup 8.5' apart, 4.5' from baffles to wall behind & 5' to side walls, 13' from each speaker to listening position. I usually listen at average 70-80db (measured at listening position with RS meter set to "C weighting" and "Slow") though occasionally listen at an average 90db for short periods. It sounds like the SS Refs will handle this fine.

I listen to 60% jazz and blues, 20% rock and pop, 20% classical. My amp is an AKSA 100 Nirvana Plus (100w/ch solid state) that perhaps leans ever so slightly to the warm side of neutral (but not by as much as the Plinius SA100 mk3 that it outperformed and replaced). Eventually I may consider a tube/hybrid amp in search of even more tonal/harmonic richness.

I'm no bass freak but wouldn't be without my directservo, low-Q, sealed subwoofer after hearing it integrated with my current 2-way ribbon/hybrid speakers (xo from ribbon to 6.5" woofer at 420hz, 18db/oct.). I plugged the ports on the current speakers and setup the sub using ETF5, achieving a reasonably flat response (+/-2db 20hz-2khz, 3rd octave smoothed). You are never aware of the sub itself but dynamics, slam, weight and full bodied-ness of the music improved significantly, along with better ambient detail and a more balanced sound.

The EBP factor (Fs/Qes) of the SS Ref midwoofer suggests that it is just as suited to a sealed enclosure as a ported one. Rick has advised that the SS Refs are -3db at 55hz in a sealed box.

So, I intend buying the SS Ref kit (with Deluxe xo's) from Rick, building solid, sealed cabinets (thick, well braced and well damped) and integrating them with my sealed sub. I will experiment to see whether it is best to let the SS Refs run full range, or to use an HP filter (on the amp inputs) to reduce the lower bass load and thus allow the mids to remain cleaner at higher volumes, as well as possibly integrate better with the sub.

Fenomeno, thanks again for all your feedback and please feel free to comment if you forsee any problems with my intended direction.