[Jmill]

Is $1295 for a completed pair?  How much for a kit?

Thanks

[bhobba]

It is absolutely beautiful. Can the speaker be wall mounted? If someone wanted it for a HT, do you think it would be best to get all the same?

I am sure Rick could do a closed box version for you which considering HT usually has subwoffers might be the go.  I remember looking at that woffer a while back and noted it had pretty good extension even in a closed box.

Thanks
Bill

[EProvenzano]

Hi Rick,

Does Scan Speak make an 8" version of that driver?
If so, do you think it would mate well with the Neo3 in a MTM?

Thanks

No 8" version is available. Why not do a MTM with the 7" and Neo3?

I was thinking the 8" drivers would have better bass extension.
I know the SS bass quite well.  I think it's wonderful.  
If the 8" driver existed, I was hoping that this combination might provide 'full range' sound from a 2 way.   With the lower xo point possible from the Neo3 it seemed like a good marriage.

Just a thought.

Thanks.

[EProvenzano]

Along those same lines...
What extension is possible from the 7" drivers, MTM?
I don't have any issue with a large box, so let me know what the maximum bass extension would be, in a big ported box.   Perhaps a floor standing MTM, with lots of depth and hight, while maintaining a minimalist baffle width.

Thanks Rick.

[aggielaw]

EP, I imagine Rick will tell you the extension is somewhat room-dependent, but the Revelator woofers are known for going ridiculously low for their size.  The porting on these will help, too.

My speakers have the 5" version of that woofer and the manufacturer claims a -10 @45Hz.  It doesn't get that in my room (and I have the rear ports plugged for use with a sub anyway) but still impressive for what it is.

Take care,
Howard

[Rick Craig]

rick, have you looked into the usher drivers?

Yes, I've used a few of the Usher drivers.

[Rick Craig]

Is $1295 for a completed pair?  How much for a kit?

Thanks

$1295 for an assembled pair or $700 for a kit (no cabinets).

[Rick Craig]

Along those same lines...
What extension is possible from the 7" drivers, MTM?
I don't have any issue with a large box, so let me know what the maximum bass extension would be, in a big ported box.   Perhaps a floor standing MTM, with lots of depth and hight, while maintaining a minimalist baffle width.

Thanks Rick.

The woofer is -3db @45hz and -10db @34hz in this design.

[Fenomeno]

I am the guy who ordered the Scanspeaks you see posted and linked by Rick to start this thread.  I look forward to receiving them, to say the least.  I also thought it appropriate to be honest and tell everyone I have every intention of posting my impressions of the speaker after I have given them a good listen...a few weeks minimum.  More importantly, I should convey my impressions of dealing with Rick at Selah Audio.

Professional, courteous, helpful, knowledgeable...you name it and Rick delivered.  The process of ordering a speaker from Rick is exceptional.  Information such as system amplification, room size, listening preferences, budget, value,  etc.. are considered when preparing a strategy for designing a speaker.  At least it was in my case because I believe system matching important.  Unfortunately it also means a change without system considerations can precipitate many others; creating a domino effect if one isn't careful.  That is what I wished to avoid with this purchase and I think Rick was consciencous of this fact.

Rick measured my woofer in the box to get an ACCURATE rolloff and begin to determine woofer behavior prior to any design to determine if the woofer and enclosure relationship would better suite my needs closed or ported.  Because the SS driver works well in both, the decision was one of preference and use on my part.  Rick then followed up at all points during the design of the speaker and crossover: driver locations on baffle, assembling a crossover with test components, then final ones, then listening, then tweaking...while conveying impressions along the way.   I think this briefly describes the care and effort Rick places in his product.

That said, I have not heard the speakers yet.   I selected the drivers based on my listening experience with other speakers using Scanspeak units, both old and new.  I considered others, then thought about budget (Skaaning, Accuton, etc.) and figured the 8531 was the best bang for the buck.  Besides, FS of 28hz, that's just crazy for a 6-1/2" driver...

I am new to this forum and I am a member of other audio forums.  I post infrequently, however.  I figure without having something to say, what is the point.  For those seeking advice, I find they can lead to confusion but for those seeking knowledge, they can be very helpful.

I have been involved in this hobby for over 20 years.  I have tried numerous pieces of equipment and speakers.  I have a certain fondness for some products and I will reveal these when I review the speakers so that those reading my post will be better able to evaluate my judgements or put them in perspective.

Sorry to be long winded, I tend to be when I do write, but I guess the anxious waiting has me on edge....

[audiojerry]

Welcome, Fenomeno, and thanks for sharing your views.

I'm with you regarding the SS midbass drivers. I've owned a few speakers myself (   ) - ok, maybe more than a few - and most of my favorites always featured the SS. like ProAc and Merlin. You're right, they have incredible bass, and just sound so natural. Lots of drivers measure great, but they do not sound natural.

[drmike]

hello rick,
can you get this in a sealed cabinet? any price difference? can they be built in the parts express cabinets?
thanks,
drmike

[Rick Craig]

hello rick,
can you get this in a sealed cabinet? any price difference? can they be built in the parts express cabinets?
thanks,
drmike

Yes, a smalled sealed cabinet by PE is possible for $50 less.

[Fenomeno]

Thanks for the welcome.  The idea of a "natural" sounding speaker is one of the most elusive qualities to find and describe.  For example, I have owned Magnepan 1.5 qr's.  They had an uncanny ability to reproduce images of realistic proportions.  An acoustic guitar sounded very "natural" due to the reproduced image size being similar in proportion to the real thing.  It helped that an acoustic guitar sat in the music room for fun and comparison.  With the maggies space was recreated to an astonishing degree, though sometimes it appeared artificial or forced.  Amplifier requirements were ridiculous and that combined with the WAF forced a sale.  But my biggest problem with the maggies in my home and with my equipment was the perception that harmonics were thin and tonal colors were pale.  I.E. not natural.  So, for an instrument that did not require alot of harmonics to be reproduced to sound great, such as acoustic guitar, electronic effects, echo, etc.. the sound or effect was wonderful.  But for human voice, piano, violin and saxophone, the reproduction could sound a little strident (depending on recording), thin or really the best way I can describe it is....bare.  I heard 3.6's with Classe amplification and thought the same.  They were truly "natural" at recreating the space and size of instruments, but the tonal color and harmonic structure was lacking.  This may have been a result of ancillary equipment, which I changed through those few years in an effort to reach that last bit of "naturalness" (new word, I guess).  But: 1) seeing as I wanted to listen to music instead of experiment with my rig and 2) seeing as I wasn't going to throw megabucks at the problem after I built a pair of 2 ways with VIFA drivers that did the depth and tonal/harmonic thing and 3) seeing as my wife, not an animal lover by any means, considered a cat adoption to tear up those maggies and force their eviction, I parted with them while they still looked decent for a sale.

Again, long winded...I apologize.

[bhobba]

Again, long winded...I apologize

No need to appologise - your posts are very enjoyable.  Keep them comming.

Thanks
Bill

[Fenomeno]

The speakers just arrived via UPS.  Kudos to Rick for double boxing as one speaker arrived with a hole and damage to the outer box.  The sanctity of the inner box appears unbreached.  Set up, unfortunately, will not occur until later this evening.

[audiojerry]

The speakers just arrived via UPS.  Kudos to Rick for double boxing as one speaker arrived with a hole and damage to the outer box.  The sanctity of the inner box appears unbreached.  Set up, unfortunately, will not occur until later this evening.

hope you can post photos and keep us posted on you impressions after burn-in.

[Fenomeno]

The fun has began.  Set up, however, is not complete.  They are endearing to say the least.....but the first hour means little as the top end doesn't open up (tubes...) and then the next hour I listened to a whooshing left channel as a preamp tube went microphonic...


Overall I listened for about 4 hours mixing it up a little  (Jean Luc Ponty, Future Sounds of London, Beethoven, Prokofiev, Pink Floyd, Cowboy Junkies, Neil Finn, Tosca, Jeff Beck, Sarah Vaughn, Art of Noise...no jazz yet...I need more time...) and pulled myself away to get some shut eye....I should have stayed up tweaking...tube rolling.....

The speakers came double boxed, the interior being the original shipping box for the cabinets.  Take a look at the links.....

I tried the speakers way out in the room....(extremely very well balanced)

When the evening was nearing an end, I placed them in the wall units (where they are to sit when not in service to avoid accidental damage and divorce) and was impressed by their ablility to still image and provide depth with reinforced bottom end that puts my former three ways to shame. (and those 3 ways weren't shabby by any means....Vince Christian Axis 10.5's...with a mod to the crossover).


So first impressions were hampered a little by ancillary setup issues.  I replaced pre-amp tubes after powering down with NOS Mullard (the ones I usually use for my CJ) and look forward to continuing tonight.

I'll post more later, after a good warm up, break-in, louder listening volumes (there are some limits, even in dedicated rooms) and final placement tweaking.

Just a little hook, after my preliminary listening I think Rick's title of this thread very appropriate if a little self-indulging and premature.

I apologize for the poor quality photos....I will re-post better, including cabinet rears and close-ups

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=720

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=720

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=720

[Fenomeno]

It only gets better…..

Approximately 20 hours into listening  and the speaker is still “maturing.”  Noticeable differences have occurred, however, and ultimately it manifests itself in a less reticent but more refined presentation on the top end.  Speaker positions have, of course, been changing as I get a handle on the dispersion/power response characteristics of the ribbons while maximizing focus and imaging.  I am a lover of focus and depth at heart and therefore favor a slightly toed-in approach.  The Scan-speak Reference (SSR) respond nicely to this slight toe in with an ever-so small lift to the upper midrange without a coloration or forwardness.  Welcome news to say the least.  The speakers have been alternately located in two places…approximately 30” from the front baffle to the rear wall and almost exactly 9’ apart centerline driver to centerline of driver OR approximately 44” from front baffle to rear wall and 8’-4” apart centerline of driver to centerline of driver (no I didn’t measure setup yet, but I know the width measurement of the wall unit behind the speakers supporting my equipment and can therefore give a good estimate to speaker spacing.

The most noticeable characteristic about the speaker is its ability to deliver large amounts of information in a musical way.  Voices are just wonderful to experience with the SSR.  Little details occur without the speaker calling attention to itself. Instead, they are presented in a not SO subtle but demurring and even intimate way. They have become my mistress in my music room. I believe this is a result of this speaker’s evenhanded resolution of detail across the entire audio spectrum.  Bass, treble, mids….all share the same level of resolution with this speaker.  This is significant as the voices and instruments appear to occur together in the same space, no hot spots, highlights (with the exception of the slight upper mid lift, easily changed by a 1-2 degree outer rotation of the speaker) or selected forwardness.  This is not an analytical presentation folks.  It’s the ability to unveil the ‘crack’ in Sade’s voice in TATOO on LOVE DELUXE so naturally (at least to the degree that my CJ and Quicksilver combination can achieve) that you realize SADE is tired, its late at night and an emotional chink in her armor has been revealed.  It’s as if you can imagine SADE in front of you near the end of a long studio session mustering up what she can deliver for one of the most emotionally involving songs to be included on the album (sorry, carry over vinyl lingo).  What is more, she surprises a verse later while singing through mouth and nose at the same time (the technical term for which escapes me).  For me, the ability to reproduce this level of control and finesse contributes immensely to listening enjoyment.  The voice sounds like an instrument with all of its technique, tone, texture, etc....that caresses your ears.  Hyperbole aside, I have never been able to clearly define what is happening at this moment in the recording. Was it just an artifact of the recording? Distortion? The mouth moving closer to the microphone?  Nope, it was releasing a tone through the nose while singing those two words. Whether imagined or not, this was what convinced me that these speakers are special.

PINK FLOYD THE WALL can sound disjointed on many a system hell bent on detail.  Conversely, it can sound lifeless, muffled or dull on those speakers erring to the side of warmth.  Try it. For one system it can be a chore and for another it can be un-involving (a little exaggeration here to make a point).  Not so with the SSR.  Before the THIN LINE lyrics begin, there is a faint voice in the right of the soundstage actually speaking, clear as a bell, in which the voice says, before the transition and swell of the music: “hup two three..” It’s supposed to be a soldier leading march and it’s delivered as it should be.  Very distant but aggressively pronounced so that when you realize it is  ROGER WATER’s dead father’s drill sergeant in the service, (my take anyway) that quiet moment of poignancy hits you in the face…I can’t resist…like a brick….with the music to hit you similarly a second later.  Special stuff, because this small moment I have listened to for a long time, with many different speakers/amplifiers/etc., but never appreciated it till now.  Maybe it is age.  Maybe being jaded.  Maybe hearing loss.  Maybe the SSR.

On TOSCA  (DELHI9 for example), a “make no bones about it” digitally synthesized and sampled recording, the splices or start/stops of the splices are laid bare.  Intimacy (that word again).  This detail is not a deconstruction of the music.  It is not overbearing, but rather delivered matter of factly as part of the recording.  The producer and artist are fully aware of the necessary evils in this medium.  Or is it an evil?  I believe TOSCA makes them intentional, thereby infusing the music with a human quality and additional ambience.  Without these noticeable transitions, the music can sound like a generic wall of music or sound, but with them, the songs sound like a composition and the little transitions, sampling noises, recording artifacts… add a human layer of texture and realism. In other words, it sounds MORE like music with these revealed, not less.  This sound can be glossed over on speakers less revealing.  Less involving.  Frankly, less interesting.  But do the SSR’s pick it apart?  Nope.  They lay the detail at your feet.  You can choose to analysis consciously as I am now, or listen with a broad smile and bask in that neutral, true to the source, sound.  

How about a quick sampling of that CD every audiophile and hifi junky used for demo in the 90’s?  COWBOY JUNKIES TRINITY SESSION.  Where to begin.  What I look for most in this CD, besides instrument placement, is the recreation of the drums and cymbals in the acoustic space.  Is the kit localized at the right speaker or truly being played in the church with its associated reverberations?  These speakers play this acoustic music BEAUTIFULLY.  The drums sound realistic in tone.  Each decay of each cymbal/highhat is slightly different in length and volume.  It becomes obvious how naturally portrayed this recording becomes on these speakers.  The first track on this disc, played at least one hundred times on my system(s) is a wealth of ambient information, all effortlessly portrayed by the SSR.  How clearly does your system sound when Margo Timmins sings “two years in the silicosis takes hold….?”  I mean, how clear?  Be honest….because this lyric was clear as day with the SSR.  I’ve heard expensive systems butcher this line, not reproducing the separation of the words “the silicosis” after the microsecond silence following the word “in.”  I thought my previous speakers were detailed.  They were elevated in upper midrange and treble, but not detailed.  A frequency thing, not resolution thing.  I know I am dissecting, but it is these small pleasures that give an immense feeling of rightness (?) and satisfaction with a sound system.  (For example the Magnepan 1.5qr I owned had detail but lacked a refinement and even response, a function of the dipole/room reaction and amplification limitations in my system. They were slightly hard and thin. The SSR’s are an easy load, almost acting like an upgrade to existing amplification) Siblance on this disc changes from track to track.  Even microphone placement/type is different, the last track brings this to your attention in particular.  I can hear the day has changed from song to song…(just kidding)

These are first impressions of this speaker.  They may change.  More information will be forthcoming.  But here is a synopsis to date:

The speakers will lean towards a slight warmth if positioned as such, otherwise VERY neutral.
Detail delivered evenly across the audio spectrum.
System limits apparent, but not disturbingly so.   ( presented as omission rather than flaw)
Legibility of words/verse, even deep in the recorded mix.
Size of venue portrayed realistically in width and depth.  Slightly constrained in width compared to some other speakers…..depth appears excellent.
All instruments participating in same acoustic on live recordings.  
Decay of reverberation tones realistic, meaning the sound reverberates “down the middle” as well as to the edges. (edge only reverberation is a sign of lifted tweeter response in my opinion)
Speaker is listener friendly with little fatigue.
Bass (more of this later) well defined, dynamic and with extension to boot. (initial impressions with Robby Robertson, John McLaughlin Trio, orchestra stuff…..)

Next up for some critical listening:
Terry Bozzio/David Torn (talk about the best recorded drums ever)
Bill Bruford
Mile Davis
Bill Evans
Sarah Vaughn
Prokofiev
Beethoven

The one thing to watch is speaker cabling.  I have found this to be the case with ANY ribbon speaker.  That said, the single wiring option forced me to try an unconventional approach, but one I have used previously.  I have two types of even length cable run from amp to speaker. One solid core cable (audioquest) and a 14-4 standed copper cable.  This may change with time.  

James…..aka Fenomeno

[audiojerry]

Very nice narrative of your experiences. Your listening room seems to be a nice environment for enjoying music.

It just ocurred to me that your driver combination of ScanSpeak with ribbon tweeter was also used in the ProAc Future series, which ultimately proved unsuccessful. My own personal experience after auditioning a pair was that the seamless integration between midbass and tweeter just wasn't there. I hope your results are more favorable.

Keep us entertained with your saga.  

PS: What are you using for your front end?

[smithsonga]

This looks like an incredible speaker.  I was browsing the ACI site and saw their Sapphire XL...using scan speak drivers but smaller mid-bass...but more $$ than this speaker.  Let alone a kit!

Rick, my thoughts on HT...what would you recommend for a 7.1 setup with these?  

I could probably make front cabinets towers with just the upper cabinet volume fixed?

But what about surrounds or center?  I need wall mounted surrounds....

I keep circling on HT options...you have many good speakers/kits and it is very difficult to decide!

thx
Jim