[Martyn]

As a potential AKSA builder, this is my first post to this forum.

I'm faced with what seems to be a common problem: how to move to 5.1 HT without compromising two-channel sound quality. I currently run a Linn Intek integrated amp. I would need to replace both this and my DVD player for 5.1.

The options I'm considering are:

1. A Linn Classik Movie (the limit of my budget - US$4,000 max.)
2. An Arcam DV79 and AVR300 (similar cost)
3. Five channels of AKSA plus a DVD player and pre/pro yet to be determined.

I realise that you are probably all dyed-in-the-wool AKSA fans, but I'm also sure that many of you will have done similar comparisons in the past. So here's my question:

How would an AKSA-based system compare with my Linn or Arcom alternatives?

From a budgetary perspective, what would you suggest for a DVD player and pre/pro? Thanks in advance,

Martyn

[Dr. Krull]

Since you are considering DIY a look at the Hypex UcD modules might be in order.

http://www.hypex.nl/UcD180.htm

-Krull

[AKSA]

Hi Martyn,

Thank you for your post.  You raise interesting points.

First, my biases and prejudices will be obvious from my website.  However, I have a close friend with the Arcam AVR300 you mention with Mission Speakers, and I myself own a two channel UcD180.  I have multiple speakers, all DIY, and all two ways with a variety of drivers and impedance corrected 3rd order crossovers, including the AKSonics, which are my preferred speakers.

The Arcam is a competent HT amp, MUCH better than most and quite powerful.  It is, however, archetype SS design, with good specs, very low distortion, and a flat, at times thin, sound.  If I were buying HT amps, this would be one to pick, because it has some pretensions to audiophile quality.

The UcD is immediately impressive.  It has huge impulse response, powerful bass, and outstanding imaging.  These are generally common qualities in switching amps, and what all the fuss is about.  However, without identifying the other, peripheral issues with switching amps, the audiophile, whether he realizes it or not, actually wants more.  He wants to sit in his chair with a grin on his face, foot tapping, engaging with the music.  This is really difficult for electronic music reproduction, and none of the switching amps, including the Bel Canto evo II I listened to a year ago, seem able to achieve this - yet.  Doubtless when switching speeds are higher, perhaps 1MHz, and rise times are lower still, this will be achieved, but not yet, IN MY OPINION.

So, as an audiophile, you need to answer this question.  Do I grin, weep, and foot tap?  These are dreadfully complex questions in modern times, but since music tickles the soul, they are probably the only questions you need to ask.  I believe that a stereo system should be regarded as a musical instrument rather than a scientific apparatus.  After all, a single ended triode amp has up to 5% harmonic distortion, but lots of people weep when they hear them, so there must be something more to this than 0.00005% distortion!!

Once you are confirmed that this is the question you should ask, you might further question AKSAphiles here in this forum.  Don't ask me.  I'm hopelessly afflicted with terminal prejudice, and I will only ever answer in the affirmative, possibly with a big drool and a wink besides........

Cheers,

Hugh

[rabbitz]

Easy.... keep the HT and music separate. I use the GK-1 and AKSA 55N+ (which are cheaper than a quality HT amp) with DIY stereo speakers for music and HT has it's own amp and the 6.1 DIY speakers.

It comes down to priorities and mine go with music, so the funds and quality go there with HT being secondary. I bought the cheapest Yamaha receiver (RXV440... great on movies BTW) and designed speakers for HT use as you only need to produce dialogue, some atmosphere, bangs and thumps and does not have the demands of music. These only need to go down to 80Hz with the sub doing the rest. Many have said it's the best HT system they've ever heard and it's all in the implementation, setup and design. Only shows you don't have to spend heaps on HT to enjoy it.

Using a HT pre would compromise music IMO hence the split of the 2 systems but they do reside in the same room / cabinet.

Rabbitz has spoken  

[audioferret]

Easy.... keep the HT and music separate. I use the GK-1 and AKSA 55N+ (which are cheaper than a quality HT amp) with DIY stereo speakers for music and HT has it's own amp and the 6.1 DIY speakers.

It comes down to priorities and mine go with music, so the funds and quality go there with HT being secondary. I bought the cheapest Yamaha receiver (RXV440... great on movies BTW) and designed speakers for HT use as you only need to produce dialogue, some atmosphere, bangs and thumps and does not have the dema ...

I agree that HT is secondary on my priorities, but I find the music in a soundtrack to be a very engaging part of the eprformance - more than just bangs and thumps.  Examples would be the "Glory", "Lord of the Rings", and "Hero" soundtracks, all of which have a significant impact on how good the movie is at stirring emotion.  In agreeance with rabbitz, you don't need the greatest Receiver, but you need an excellent DVD player and amp combo.  Save money by not using the receiver to process your sound or video.  Just pass it through.  

However, this is what I would do with your $4,000 Budget


$1499 - DVD Player (Denon 3910)
$1898 - Outlaw Audio 990/7125 Combo
$3397 for the setup.

But really, why spend so much? You are better off putting money into speakers for HT - better payoff.


730 - DVD Player (Denon 2910)
1298 - Outlaw Audio 970/7075 Combo (All you really need)
1500 - Onix Rocket HT #5 (Add a pair of floorstanders later for 7.1)
400 - Rocket UFW-10 (Sale or packaged)
$3938 - Not Bad (50% ish on Spekers is best)
 
If you are looking for a new display to go with your setup:

$536 - Screen (Carada 72")
$1100 - Projector (Optoma H31)

-$5500 ish Total, but I digress....

What speakers are you working with?

[soitstarts]

I have an old onkyo processor that I use as a pre amp while building my GK1M. I have tested the GK1 and the onkyo does fall behind a fair bit. You can use the HT bypass for a direct comparison (set both volume levels first).

As I have limited funds, This is the best for me as the 1 set of speakers can be used for HT and stereo. The music in movies has an impact, on me, anyway.. I also have a few Music DVDs so I prefer a musical set of speakers on my HT system.

I am a rank amateur here, but I would have 3 front speakers of highest quality I could afford and surrounds that are adequate. I would run a 3 channel AKSA 100 for the 3 fronts and let a mid priced processor handle the surrounds. Then use a 2 channel GK1M to handle the stereo duties. A Sub, for me, would be the last of my priorites.
 
The processor may take a bit of research with video switching options and a DVD player will also need a bit of research with the 2 new HD formats on our doorstep..

But if I could afford it, i would have 1 room for music with the bare essentials and a HT room.. But that 'aint gonna happen..

There are plenty of savings, and fun, in doing all you can DIY... And there's plenty better advice and knowledge in here than I can offer.

[rabbitz]

audioferret.... yep, music does play a large part in the soundtrack of a movie but both DD and DTS are lossy systems and never reach the levels of a good CD or vinyl and is one reason I have gone the route I have. I used to use the mains with both HT and music but the banana plug shuffle wore thin after a while.

I'm fortunate enough to be able to design speakers that are sonically suitable for the HT application and these give the HT a lift with moderate partnering equipment that can out do a lot of more expensive equipment... an advantage of DIY that you can design to suit your needs, tastes and equipment..... very hard to do with off the shelf speakers.

If I'm reading your post right, you are saying to use a DVD player with on board processing instead of one in the HT receiver / amp and feed to separate power amps. I did that for quite a while using a stereo amp and a 3 channel amp for the centre and surrounds and works extremely well. As you said, a good DVD player is needed for this approach.

[Martyn]

Well, thank you all for such considered replies. Let me start by saying that I agree with Hugh's philosophy - it's about the music and the emotion it stimulates. The technology that produces it is really of very little interest to me (I'm a mechanical engineer and therefore don't understand any of this electrickery anyway), although I do require that the hardware is visually attractive (or hidden from view). I don't know the difference between a switching amp and any other kind, and certainly couldn't bluff my way through a spec sheet, thus I tend to rely, to some extent at least, on the wisdom of others for arriving at the basis for a decision.

I thought about separating the music from the HT as Rabbitz suggests, but it seems likely that the hardware would become quite messy very quickly and would not meet with wifely approval. On the other hand, I must admit that it's not all that clear to me when you need a receiver or processor and when you don't. It would seem that DVD players and processors/receivers both contain (and therefore duplicate) the necessary decoding tools. Thus you need either a good DVD player with a good amplifier (preamp and power amp, I assume), or a basic player and an amplifier and a good processor. Please correct me if I'm getting this wrong. Also, Rabbitz is suggesting two speaker systems: a pair of quality stereo, and a 5.1 set. I'm already in enough trouble with my newly-built speakers (see photo on left), and I'm working on smoothing the way for discretely designed centre, surrounds, and woofer. I'd never get away with another pair of mains!

The "banana plug shuffle" would drive me nuts, but do you have to do that? If the DVD line-out for the mains went to the stereo amp and the line-outs for the other speakers went to the HT amp, wouldn't that work? I guess it gets a little complicated controlling the amps...hence Audioferret's suggestion (you guys really like your small, furry animals) of using a multi-channel amp in the first place. By the same token, I suppose that five channels of AKSA amps would still benefit from some kind of processor to "manage" the whole set up (and would need five channels of pre-amp too). Does this make any sense? It should be fairly obvious that all this HT stuff is quite new to me (we're still watching a 21" CRT).

To answer Audioferret's question, my speakers are from a kit using Eton drivers - I love 'em. I'd probably add a centre and surrounds from a Dennis Murphy design and then build a sub into a custom cabinet - this stuff has to look like furniture to maintain the WAF. We're going to add a 50" plasma TV.

Soitstarts, that faceplate on your amp is spectacular - just gorgeous. I assume it's a custom machining job?

So I don't know where this all leaves me...I'm definitely staying with one set of speakers for both stereo and 5.1. I think my Etons have an F3 of around 27 Hz, so a sub would be for non-musical bangs and thumps only. I'm not convinced that a Denon or equivalent DVD is good enough, although I lack the technical knowledge to say that out loud, and I'd be wary of buying an amplifier that I can't touch and feel (never mind hear) like Outlaw - too much of an unknown quantity.

Please feel free to comment further...I really appreciate your contributions to my education!. Thanks,

Martyn

[soitstarts]

Thanks about the faceplate.. cost 2 Bucks and a lot of time..

OK... Hope I don't stuff this up..

I strongly suggest a processor to do the multi channel duties as switching Video will become less tiresome. Your DVD will not enable you to watch foxtel with surround, for instance. Or whatever else may be on its way.. Media centres, Console, ext... A decent processor will allow you to "pre out" the signal to your "power amp" ie. AKSA's. It will be one hellava system if you ran all channels with an AKSA. The 3 front channels are the most important for matching and thats why I only run a 3 channel power amp and let the processor power the rears.

The GK1M allows you to switch the processor in and out of your music chain with the HT bypass switch.
You wanna watch a Loud, effects laden movie? Turn off the GK1 and switch the Bypass switch off and this allows th processor to "pre" a signal to your 3, 5 or whatever amount power amps.
Wanna listen to a bit of Dire Straits or Paul Kelly? Turn on Your GK1, flick the HT bypass switch on and the GK1 will "pre" to your left and right channel power for that sweet stereo music... All using the same Left/right main speakers..

Hope I got that right.. Oh yeah, don't forget there is a bit of a HD format war happening with the industry at the moment so thats another thing to think about when purchasing a DVD player. A processor will allow you to have both to switch between, although I believe dual players will be available..

Martin. (the correct spelling)

[rabbitz]

I'll shut up as I don't want to upset the balance of marital bliss.  

The banana plug shuffle was necessary as my GK-1 pre is single source only with no switching.

Small furry animals rule and there are a lot of us so look out.  

Looks like you are on to the path of a HT receiver where you can add a AKSA to the main output to drive the main speakers, such as the Rotel RSX1056 http://europe.rotel.com/products/specs/rsx1056.htm or a pre/processor where you can add power amps to the outputs such as the Rotel RSP1068 http://europe.rotel.com/products/specs/rsp1068.htm. Rotel was only used as an example and is not a recommendation.

I too am a mechanical engineer and this electronics stuff is hard going but getting easier. I've given the engineering the flick to persue more interesting past times.

[Martyn]

Ok, so this switch is the key. I don't know whether this is a sophisticated piece of mainstream audio equipment or a simple switch, but I'll assume it's  relatively simple although it obviously has to switch at least two audio channels. Presumably it could be built into the GK1 preamp.

I've had to draw myself a little diagram to figure out what's going on here (I'm a visual learner)...On the input end of things we have a good quality DVD player, and on the output end we have five speakers (including the music mains) and a sub. In between is a processor that drives the surrounds (and outputs to the sub) either directly (as a receiver) or through some other amplifier(s) and provides pre-outs to the music amps for the three front channels. In parallel with the processor is a music pre-amp that is switched and provides pre-outs to two of the music amps (which therefore need two sets of input terminals)...

   I think I may just have figured out the the "switch" already exists as the HT bypass facility in the processor - is that right?

So far, so good. So the processor would need to be able to handle 5.1. So would a receiver although this would have several amplification channels unused. This brings us back to my original question of whether it is just as effective (and a lot simpler) to spend the money from those music amps on a better receiver in the first place.

The Rotel receiver (to continue with the exampe) looks like being around US$1,200 and I'd guess that three channels of AKSA 55n+ will cost about the same. Thus the cost for both already equals or exceeds the cost of an Arcam AVR300 receiver (7.1) and we haven't included a GK1 yet. Running all five channels as AKSA amps would cost even more in this example because the Rotel pre/pro is similar in price to the Rotel receiver.

Of course, the question of new formats further increases the complexity. Many years ago an ex-employer of mine told me that "Better is the enemy of Good". For the most part he was right. There comes a point where the next increment in sound quality is a waste of time (and money) unless you are prepared to sit in a fixed spot in a dedicated listening room, etc. etc. My problem is figuring out where that point is for my "living room" environment.

BTW, I too am a "lapsed" engineer. Cheers,

Martyn (the imaginative spelling)  

[soitstarts]

I took the leap of faith and bought 3 Channels of 100 Nirvana unheard. I was gobsmaked by the difference between my processor powering and only pre-ing to my AKSA.
My processor cost $2000 5 years ago and is an Onkyo. It's "old" and lacks a lot of switching options available on mainstream processors now.

Spend the big dollars on your amplification... Great Amplification now will still be great in 20 years. A processor ages like a computer, next year there will be something new... You can upgrade the AKSA in 3 stages if you want to taste it first. I am just in the process of "boxing" my GK1 as the AKSA has made me Hughs bitch.. I will also eventually upgrade my AKSA to a plus.

I enjoy doing it in stages as it prolongs the orgasm, so to speak

Don't make the same mistake I did. Spend The big bucks on amplification and be prepared accept the processor will age quickly.

The HT bypass is part of the GK1M that lets you run your sources' through your stereo preamp (GK1M) to the processor. In HT bypass the source gets preamped by the GK1 and goes to your power amp, then to your speakers. When the HT bypass is turned off, the source goes straight past the GK1 electronics and lets your processor take over.

You could also let a PC run your home theatre.. Much easier and cheaper to upgrade...
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[Martyn]

So what brand of amplifier were you using prior to your AKSAs? I agree that you have to spend big bucks on the amplification, but unfortunately you also have to spend it on the source and on the speakers! Processors are an unknown quantity to me, so I don't know whether a low-budget one will suffice.

I guess the overall message is: make a long-term buying decision for the pre- and power amps and speakers, and change the source and controller as compelling new technologies emerge. Oh, since the GK1 looks to me like a two-channel pre-amp, the processor still needs to be a receiver to do service as a pre-amp for the other channels.

So it's looking like US$1k for a GK1, $1.2k for AKSA power amps, and ~$1.5k each for a DVD player and receiver. Too much.

Using a computer is an interesting idea -presumably anything reasonably modern with a 5.1 sound card would do. On the other hand, it's not all that convenient - the computer would need to live fairly near to the HT system, there's no remote, and my computers are always noisy.

This is making my head hurt...

Martyn

[AKSA]

Martyn,

Do you really have to spend it all at once?  You can cobble up a reasonable source until you are ready to buy the one you want, and in any case you can also do without the preamp for a time.  The real big numbers are the power amps and the speakers;  these are the pivotal parts of the system which will not go out of date quickly.

Cheers,

Hugh

[Martyn]

Hi, Hugh.

I'm not really concerned about the speakers - I have the mains and I even have enough old speakers kicking around to improvise the rest, although that's not really necessary because I can build some very good ones for perhaps $150 a piece plus boxes (more for a sub).

I could get by with my existing Denon DVD player, although I haven't used it on anything bigger that a 21" CRT! Its stereo performance with my Linn amp is quite acceptable, although I'm sure there's plenty of room for improvement, but it will definitely be a weak link in a better system and it won't play burnt CDs or DVDs. This has become more of an issue now that my video camera is digital and I'm thinking about moving my vinyl onto CD, but you're right - I could probably sit out the format wars with my Denon in necessary.

Maybe I could use my Linn to drive the surrounds and use three AKSA power amps for the mains and centre, but I would still need a pre/pro as a pre-amp for the AKSAs and as a controller and video switcher. This would cost, say, US$1.2k for the hypothetical Rotel and maybe the same for three AKSA power amps. The Arcam AVR 300 receiver is about US$2k (and would free up my Linn amp for use elsewhere), so the AKSAs would need to sound significantly better than the Arcam in order to be attractive. Even so, I would expect the Rotel to be weaker than the Arcam's pre/pro sections.

Ultimately what it comes down to is something like this:

1. Five channels of AKSA power amps (maybe three 55N+ and two 55) with a good DVD player and pre/pro (offers max. up-grade flexibility).

2. Arcam DV 79 and AVR 300 (offer moderate up-grade flexibility)

3. Linn Classik Movie (integrates the whole lot into one superbly engineered package, but lacks up-grade flexibility).

For me the greatest unknown is still the comparative sound quality.

Hugh, do you have any AKSA users in Victoria, BC or elsewhere on Vancouver Island or in Vancouver? Cheers,

Martyn

[AKSA]

Hi Martyn,

Yes, I believe so, I will ask around, get back to you.

Cheers,

Hugh

[soitstarts]

1200 bucks US on a processor!!!!  If you are gonna pre out to a decent power amp, I would half that, at least.

You don't need to spend that much on the processor IMHO.

You dont have to go the GK1, either.

Hows this sound, will fill your needs and leave the door open..

A MID priced reciever, good DVD player and 2/3 channels of ASKA.

Use the Amps in the processor to drive the surround and maybe centre speaker, pre out L/R and maybe centre to the AKSA.
Live with it for a while, Listen to the processor by itself, without the AKSA. When you pre out to an AKSA you may be surprised to hear your music in a totally different light.
You seem to have your speakers sorted out, you know what you like, you know what you want.. You're further ahead than a lot of others.
One thing I can suggest with fullest confidence to you is that you should get a processor, if you want HT. Get a good processor, if you pre out your amplification, that'll do. Trust me. Once you hear what the AKSA does to the sound, more than likely you will start thinking about the GK1.

I can't stress to you how much your position now sounds like me a couple of years back, except I already had the processor.

I now have 3 AKSA100N's, a GK1M and will be looking at CD players at the end of the year. When I can't hear an obvious sound difference, I will stop...

[Felipe]

Hi all,

I guess i can give my opinion here, because i have been in the same situation for some years now. I started with a stereo system, and went through buying the DVD player, the PRE receiver , the extra speakers, the subwoofer, etc etc....

Its been a riot, and mess, some surprises, postive and negative. I can now say that some parts are just totally negligeble and some are NOT.

What you need to have GOOD quality :

- Speakers  ( match the 3 front speakers. Same tone and brand preferrable)
- Power amps ( Aksa's are great, if smallish/medium room go with 3 X 55N+)
- Decoder ( this is the DAC : it can be on the DVD or on the PRE  )

If you plan to use the pair of speakers that you currently own, find a center speaker that match its tone and sensibility. This is crucial.
I had 3 different center speakers and ended building my own using the same drivers that my stereo Proac pair uses !!

Power amps are a true value. They will last years and years and still be very good. Nice investment.

Decoder : Men...this is shit. You can buy a  good decoder now, and next year it will come out a new one with better performance for half the price. Thats life. Prepare to face it !
My suggestion is Keep you Denon DVD. I am sure its a good machine.
By a moderate value Pre-amp Receiver. Say 700$ to 800$. There are lots of great value receivers. Going to a higher price Receiver would only change the power ratings ( wich you dont care). They usually all have the same DACs.
THE DAC IS VERY IMPORTANT . DONT UNDERESTIMATE IT !!!
I did and regreted it later.....

Most of audiophiles will tell you that the most important element in a stereo chain is the CD. I agree. This is were the DAC is. CD's have had an enourmous progress since its appearence. It still is evolving !!

Finally DO buy a Sub. Its not thats expensive it is well worth it. For movies its essencial !

So,

- $800 for a medium priced Receiver ( good Dacs)
- $1K for 3X AKSAs
- $400 for a SUB

Add some for a center speaker and the Rear speakers. Dont know how much you want to spend here, but DONT OVERSPEND ! MATCH THE 3 FRONT SPEAKER !! VERY IMPORTANT !! The rears have litle importance.

Good luck.
Filipe

[rabbitz]

If you watch movies on axis, you can get dispense with the centre and run on phantom mode.

I would do the upgrade in stages so the dollars are spread over a long period and that way the other half won't notice as much.

As you add a component you can say "That's been here for ages... don't you remember...."  

[soitstarts]

I would do the upgrade in stages so the dollars are spread over a long period and that way the other half won't notice as much.

As you add a component you can say "That's been here for ages... don't you remember...."  

And NEVER say "This is the last piece, hon.." God help me if she holds me to it..