[CornellAlum]

Absolutely it's unfair, but the other designers were more than welcome to do the same exact thing and chose not to, so it's far from unfair on an ethical level.  That addition probably contributed quite a bit I would imagine.  I do wonder why the exodus faired worse than the other designs using the same modules so drastically.  If I understood Danny's comments correctly, the Dodd amp had completely stock modules.

[gstraley]

Thanks to Danny for being such a gracious host and the fun time that we had. After everyone left on Saturday, Danny and I had a chance to do more listening. We went back and compared cables and did plug the Superphon amp into the balanced power supply. Wow! what an improvement. It took that digital sounding edge right out of the amp. It brought the Superphon amp to another level. Once we found the right cables and plugged everything into the Dobb balanced power supply Danny cranked up the system and I starting seeing plaster coming loose from the walls. I think it was the Rob Zombie cd that did it.
   As far as the t-amp, it is great for the price and will make your computer speakers sing. It can not get up and rock unless your speakers are over 100 db efficent. The one we listened to had a couple of mods done to it. The binding posts were changed and I noticed that there were some bypass cap in it.
    I have attended a number of shoot outs and a lot of what one hears depends upon where they are sitting. 3 of us were sitting on the couch and Gary Dodd was right up behind the couch in the center. 1/2 of the other guys were up against the back wall where usually the bass tends to bloat. Anything with drive and it may tend to over power you. Brian, Art and myself were seated on the couch. Brian was in the hot seat. To all 3 of us it was obvious that the Superphon amp was the more refined high end amp. (Maybe I should not speak for the other 2 guys but in conversation with them that is the impression that I got from them.) The sound was not stuck in the speakers like the other amps were to me. It actually, from my left of center sitting position was the only amp that opened up and let the music and energy flow and relax. I personally felt that Gary's was slightly behind the Superphon but all Gary did was through a filtered power supply at a stock board. Nice job for just slapping it together.

Thanks again Danny for the fun time.

[Danny Richie]

I would have liked to see the Panny XR55 in the mix.

Actually I don't think it will be as good as you'd think it to be. The amps on those things are pretty clean and past whatever they are feed. The problem is the pre-amp section.

I had one of the Sharp CD players over here one day. You know that ones that were so popular... They had about a 15 watt digital amp built in.

If I played the CD player that was built into the unit, it sounded horrible. But when I turned the volume all the way up and use the output from my tube pre-amp and signal from a CEC transport to an Ack dAck, plugged into the "Axillary In", then it sound surprisingly very good.

Keep in mind that the little T-amp had about $7,500. worth of front end gear on it, and it sounded like it. When I stick it on my computer then it sounds like it's worth about $20.

If I'm reading Danny's article right the sonic-T-amp drove those very large speakers used in the shootout with enough oomph to make everybody sit up and listen.

It played them loud enough that no one had any idea that it was a single digit amp.

If I turn on the powered 12" side loaded sub that runs off the speaker level inputs then you would not even get the feeling that the bottom end on the little amp lacked anything either.

The little T-amp has great low mids and bass is fine too, its the low bass that can be a little bit of a challenge if asked to play very loud.

I wish we had had enough time to go back and test some of the amps when plugged into a power conditioner.

Greg Straley and I did that when you guys left. You'd really be amazed at how much better the Superphon amp sounded when we plugged it into the Dodd Audio balanced power supply. It made quite a difference.

It makes quite a difference with the Exodus amp too. It drops the noise floor right out of it and makes it sound much cleaner. They all sound better on the balanced power supply, but some more than others. Some of the amps have some noise filtering in their power supplies. The only way we could know fairly which amps were better was to plug them into the wall socket. They were hospital grade sockets and I was using a pretty high end (even cryo treated) power cord to each amp.

hello, from my understanding gary's amp has a built in balanced power conditioner/supply.

It had dual mono power supplies, filtering chokes, and a balanced power transformer. It weighed about 45 pounds, nearly twice as much as the others.

since the others were not hooked up to a balanced power conditioner(supply) was/is this an unfair advantage for the dodd amp?

Advantage, yes. Unfair, I don't think so. Good engineering, definitely.

If I understood Danny's comments correctly, the Dodd amp had completely stock modules.

Yes it did. Just goes to show how much difference a really good power supply can make.

[Danny Richie]

Oh hi Greg, Funny I was just mentioning you. You must have been typing when I was typing.

After everyone left on Saturday, Danny and I had a chance to do more listening. We went back and compared cables and did plug the Superphon amp into the balanced power supply. Wow! what an improvement. It took that digital sounding edge right out of the amp. It brought the Superphon amp to another level. Once we found the right cables and plugged everything into the Dobb balanced power supply Danny cranked up the system and I starting seeing plaster coming loose from the walls. I think it was the Rob Zombie cd that did it.

Yea that was pretty damn good. I liked Greg's IC's better from the pre-amp to the Superphon. It was a good match with that amp. I really liked his speaker cables too. I have to get me a couple of pairs of those speaker cables.

That was a fun to listen to combo. It had my pulling out the harder music and letting a few rip at levels that I don't normally listen.    Big fun...

[brj]

hello, from my understanding gary's amp has a built in balanced power conditioner/supply. since the others were not hooked up to a balanced power conditioner(supply) was/is this an unfair advantage for the dodd amp?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think so.

Every designer is going to choose their own personal path toward achieving a target performance level at a target price point.  For the price point Gary targeted, he put all of his design effort into the power supply and left the amplifier modules in their stock state.  Other designers choose a different balance, with perhaps less focus on the power supply and more on input and output modules (for example).  None of those paths are wrong, they are just different.

As a result, however, I find it especially important to know just what the designer focused on at his selected price point so that I can best choose how to spend my (limited) funds in an effort to achieve the best overall system.

If I've already spent the money on a great power conditioner, then maybe I can choose an amp that has less of the purchase price wrapped up in the power supply.

If I choose super efficient speakers, then I can buy lower power (and thus typcially less expensive) amplifiers.

If I've already spent the money on a fantastic rack to vibrationally isolate all of my gear, then maybe I don't need to buy a transport that has an appreciable portion of its cost tied up in damping and isolation footers.

Of course, these are just examples, and there are limits in the real world... most commerical designers don't have the options to let you assemble a component a la carte.  This is where DIY becomes valuable - you can put money exactly where you need to for your system.

[JDUBS]

This is awesome stuff!!  Thanks to everyone involved...and especially you, Danny!

-Jim

[kfr01]

I look forward to hearing more from the folks at the event ...

[fredgarvin]

Really nice job guys, interesting and surprising as well. I was thinking it would be nice to use an analog amp in the comparison that is highly regarded, such as Marsh or Odyssey for example, as a control. Just the knowledge that the reviewers have of the amps being "digital" could skew the perceptions. Just an idea. I will be eagerly watching the developments of these amps.

[lonewolfny42]

Imagine that....the Sonic Impact had such a nice showing. So I'm thinking....too bad no Red Wine amps were on hand.

Nice work on putting this all together Danny....thanks !! [/list:u]
Chris[/list:u]

[JLM]

My 6 wpc Clari-T was barely adequate to drive my 89 dB/w/m, 30 -20,000 Hz single driver speakers in a 13 ft x 21 ft room.  But in the end I (and a couple of others that had tried the same setup) knew this pairing was missing full bass dynamics/headroom.  YMMV, but the math says that nearfield peaks would be only 97 dB.  

The key to basic/proper synergy is in both speaker efficiency (as mentioned above) and a simple (or better yet missing) crossover so that the amp has a less complex load presented to it.  This gets into the whole SET/single driver magic that fans obsess about.

I have no doubt that the Clari-T, especially with the highly recommended Auricap/Black Gate upgrades would stomp the Sonic Impact.

I replaced the Clari-T with 40 watt Channel Island Audio VMB-1 chip based monoblocks.  Not only did I gain bass dynamics and overall headroom, but the "small sounds" in the records became clearer (and smaller BTW) with imaging greatly improved.

[gary]

I have no doubt that the Clari-T, especially with the highly recommended Auricap/Black Gate upgrades would stomp the Sonic Impact.

I certainly agree with that, although the Clari-T really needs to be paired with uber efficient speakers at or above 100dB/W to really shine. Of course, with all of those upgrades it's not the same kind of bargain that the $30 SI amp is.

Gary

[Sones27]

Danny,

      Thanks for inviting me to send the Lyngdorf amp to the comparison.    I thought it would be interesting to see how it would sound in comparison to whatever showed up.

      All in all, it sounds like it did very well.   Danny's recap states that on Saturday,  the Lyngdorf was picked as best (over the Superphon prototype for $1K more) since you could listen to the Lyngdorf longer, with more pleasure.   As Danny puts it,   “The top two were: The Lyngdorf and the Superphon with an edge being given to the Lyngdorf for being a smoother sounding amp. The smoothly balanced sound of the Lyngdorf made it easy to listen to for extended periods.”  

      I am OK with something you can listen to longer, even if it has a lower “wow” factor over shorter periods.   I'm sure each of us has heard something that initially grabs our attention-- and then later, we notice that the “wow” part is getting tiring, and in fact, is part of the reproduction chain, and not part of the music.

      I own a Sonic Impact amp (who could resist the price?) and have no doubt that the various modified units give a better sound.   Perfect for DIY work.  Still, one cannot escape the lack of power.   Yes, there are workarounds-- higher efficiency speakers, powered woofers for the low end-- but obviously, this is not for everyone.   In contrast,   the $1490 Lyngdorf amp puts out 220 watts into 8 ohms, and 375 into 4 ohms (test results from HiFi World review in the UK, May 2005 ... the magazine later named the SDA2175 as “Amp of the year” for 2005).  

     The Lyngdorf SDA2175 is not a prototype, or produced in very limited quantities.   The reason that Danny found that the fit and finish of the Lyngdorf was so good, is that it is produced in quantity, and to a very high standard.   Support for the Lyngdorf Audio equipment will be longterm.  

     Again, thanks for asking me to send an amplifier.   Lyngdorf Audio has a full range of innovative products-- already being sold in quantity in Europe, and just now starting in the US.    If anyone has any further questions or comments, please let me know.

      Mark Lyon, Audio Systems
       www.usrcs.com

[Adamay]

My experience with the SI is spot-on with what JLM observed a few posts back:  with a real-world speaker load (mine are 91.5, with a simple first-order crossover), the SI lacks bass power and richness from the mids on down, and misses some information in the mids and upper registers too.  Also, unless I misunderstand the following quote from an earlier post (from somebody who was at the event), I have to question the following selection of music for the comparison.  In my system, the Nuforces were head- and shoulders- above the SI.  

To those commenting on the T-amp, keep in mind that one reason that it worked as well as it did was that Danny's speakers are 91 dB efficient with a nominal 8 Ohm load. When auditioning it, we also didn't play tracks that were especially bass heavy or otherwise demanded a great deal of current. In addition, the subwoofer modules on the speakers were turned off once the comparisons started.

(Toward the end of the afternoon, we played the Burmeister Chinese drum track on the other two generally preferred amps, but Danny declined when I asked him to play it on the T-amp.... I didn't realize why until after he identified the amps for us.

[Zero]

Cool - Thanks for taking your time to do this cool comparison Danny.

[JDUBS]

This makes me really glad I own a Clari-T.

Its driving 109db. Oris horns....to perfection!  I honestly can't imagine anything better for them.

[Rob Babcock]

Is there a "Cliff Notes" version of the results?

[Vinnie R.]

This makes me really glad I own a Clari-T.

Its driving 109db. Oris horns....to perfection!  I honestly can't imagine anything better for them.

Thank you, JDUBS!  

[KT]

I think one of the key factors is, indeed, amp/speaker synergy.

I played around with the the Sonic Impact for over a year, using it both stock and modded, powered by a 12Ah SLA,  into a pair of 86db efficient modded Optimus LX-4 pros. The SI was surprisingly good for the money, but ultimately it had a upper-midrange/treble thinness or glare that made it unsatisfactory for long-term listening.

When I brought a modded unit to my brother over the Christams vacation and hooked it up the a modded pair of Klipsch Heresies (horn mids and tweeters, dynamic bass driver) at 94db efficiency, however,  I couldn't believe my ears. The synergy was amazing and I could finally understand what the reviewers were talking about. My brother was more excited about the sound of the SI/Klipsch combo than when he was using an Audio Note Kit One 300B amp with the Klipsch speakers. It was that engaging and musical.

So in the right system, a modded SI can be one hell of an amp.

Best,
KT

[audiojerry]

Thank you, Danny.
You performed a valuable public service to AC members without any self promotion. That's worth being recoginized for.

Thank you, Mr. Lyon, for your contribution also. Perhaps you would consider making a Lyngdorf available for one of our AC audition tours?

[gilbodavid]

Nice review. I've been using an SI amp I modded with auricaps, quality resisters, Panasonic cap on the chip, good case with quality copper wiring,  good conectors, a quality stepped attenuator and, after trying battery power, a quality SMPS power supply supplied by nuuk (see his reviews on TNT). I've been playing cd's from a $3,000 cd player through it into OB'd Visaton B200's run-in for 300 hours. My listening room is 12'x12'x12' (small!). I've been runnning this setup for a few weeks.  Total cost of the SI with mods is $350. (the stepped attenuator took up $200 of this). I've also played the SI through my Quad ESL57's with new trable pannels and high end turntable in the same room.

Ok, so the SI sound for me is clear and dry, with good imaging and nice dynamics. Definately up there with new $1000-$2,000 amps of a certain variety. However, its failings in my system were also clear. It lacks majorly in organic depth, specially in the midrange, making it, as some have said, thin. This thinness, while less so than cheap and nasty amps we've all heard so often, is still very fatiguing in long term listening, because one is made aware one is listening to sounds, not organic instruments. ( I include synthesisers as organic instruments here, as anyone with a wonderful system will know). As a result, the feeling of having musicians in the room, with all their attendant emotion and PRAT, is not found at all by this little amp.

To give an idea of amps that do what the SI can't, I have 3 inexpensive amps that I plugged in. They were:
Quad 306 ($300 used) and Tube Technology valve pre ($400 used),
Sony 3200F and 2000F pre (1970's high end - $400 used)
SET monoblocks (homemade - $400 used) and Tube technology pre.

The best of these was the Sonys, followed by the SET, then the Quad. The defining characteristic for me was how real, close and emotional the musicians and their instruments were to me, and the drive and PRAT conveyed of their perfomances. In all respects these 3 amps had it, and the Quad was somewhat behind the SET and Sonys, which were rather close to each other.

I own a Taylor 314CE guitar ($1500 retail) and am just about to spend 2 weeks playing a Steinway concert grand piano. ($70,000 retail). The SI in my system couldn't tell the Steinway from a $1000 piano, or the Taylor from a cheap guitar. Both the SET's and the Sonys can do that, specially through the Quad Esl's, and with my turntable. In fact the fatigue I get from the SI amp with cd and Visatons is not far off that I get from playing my girlfreinds piano (worth $100) or a reallly cheap guitar.

Something that I have to admit bugs me about much of the audiophile community is the theory that there are different ways that music sounds, depending on the hifi system. Rubbish! Musically, a Steinway concert grand sounds different from a 6' Steinway grand, sounds different from a Steinway 5' grand, sounds different from a Kawai 5' concert grand, sounds different from my girlfreinds piano. Thats what musicians pay for, and all know! And then there's the swing, emotion,vibe and PRAT that the better musicians create - not the hifi!!! Thats what makes MUSIC! I spent 3 hours in a shop recently choosing a Fender Strat for a freind, and the assistant (a wonderful guitarist) and I both knew the best of 30 strats as soon as we heard it, as any musician would. It conveyed emotion and PRAT like none of the others. It was like it was alive in my hands, and wanted to rock! YES.

This is an honest review based on the actual sound and feel of beautiful instruments (as used on most recordings) played beautifully by real people.

I shall keep my SI til I've built a gainclone, which Nuuk says can do some of what the class t amps can't for not much dinero. Meanwhile I love the fact that this little box (42x32x62) produces the music it does, within its very clear limitations, though it is NOT cheap, compared to my other amps and what they can do in finding real music!