[audiophile39]

I'm looking at amps from Blue Circle, who claim that their point to point wiring provides superior sound to circuit boards, and I wonder if there is validity to these claims.  Thanks

[Dusty Chalk]

I like it better, but I have no justification.  Unfortunately, I've never been able to compare the exact same system with P2P vs. PCB.  But individual components I have that are P2P sound better than PCB components I've heard.

It just seems cleaner.  (And I don't mean visually -- quite the opposite case, there.)

[dado5]

Assuming a good layout for both, the conductive paths on a PCB are going to be more capacitive than wire alone. What sonic impact this has is debatable.

For the most part PCBs are more cost saving and quality control aids  than  performance enhancers. Really small manufacturers may not see them as a savings as the design and manufacture process of the boards themselves is costly, but most makers who intend to produce many units of the same model will pay the price.

Of course PCBs are virtually required for solid state circuits because the components are designed to be used with them (there are exceptions). This is not the case with tubes however. If you build your own amps with tubes, PCBs would just be a lot of unneeded cost and work. Point to Point is the only way to go in this regard.

In the end ad copy is ad copy.  Just listen and buy what you like....anything else is irrelevant.

[TomS]

My Joule Electra gear has circuit boards with large "landing pads" to facilitate the point to point wiring Jud Barber uses.  There aren't really  circuit board traces per se, so it still has a little of the rat's nest feel when you look at it, but the implementation is totally repeatable this way.  Whatever he does, it sure does sound good.  Of course there's no practical way to compare them to normal PCB's with traces, so who knows if it has anything to do with the boards or whether it's just a great design and carefully chosen parts.

[PhilNYC]

Of course PCBs are virtually required for solid state circuits because the components are designed to be used with them (there are exceptions)....

Blue Circle's solid state components all still employ point-to-point wiring...

[Parnelli777]

Interesting article regarding this, from Randall Smith of Mesa/Boogie:

http://www.mesaboogie.com/US/Smith/point-to-point.html

[elcaptain88]

I doubt there is any sound difference. Point to point wiring is has to be much more labor intensive, however, resulting in a more expensive product - all other things being equal.

[skrivis]

I doubt there is any sound difference. Point to point wiring is has to be much more labor intensive, however, resulting in a more expensive product - all other things being equal.

As someone else pointed out, for very small scale production, the cost of having circuit boards produced may make p2p more economical. Or, if you produce your own boards, that could be pretty labor intensive too.

It's a bit more likely that you'll get repeatable results with PC boards. Point to point could make each individual piece different from the rest. (Very careful wiring reduces this problem.)

I don't think that one apporach will necessarily sound better than the other either.

[JLM]

Shipping hazards force me to prefer printed circuit boards from simply a very practical basis.

[Kevin Haskins]

In general... PCBs are a big improvement over point to point.   They provide repeatable, proven mounting and routing methods that are the same unit to unit.   They are the industry standard method of mounting parts.   Many components are only available in SMD packaging.  

Overall, if you design right they are a huge improvement over trying to do things point to point.   Not only in cost savings but in terms of reliability and quality.

[toobluvr]

I had a converstion with Mark Deneen of Juicy Music on this very topic.
I asked him why he used PCB and not PTP in his preamps.

He responded that he has dabbled with both in his circuits, and he feels that repeatable and consistent results are better achieved with PCB.  He said that in his experience, sonics with PTP can vary too widely from one unit to the next.  He prefers to offer a consistent and uniform product, so he uses PCB.

[miklorsmith]

My recollection is that Dan Wright uses PCB's in his 9.0 SE preamp for the very same reasons.

[Steve]

Absolutely, better consistency, but maybe a clavit. It also depends on how the layout is done etc. PCing can very easily be flawed.

Wires bundled together can allow for signal transfer of all types, bleeding from whatever to whatever, depending on the Z. If the wires aren't bundled, then consistency from unit to unit could easily suffer as the capacitance to other points, including the chassis, is not consistent.

PCs, if done right, can mean less foils are used. And it is the same unit after unit. And less capacitance between foils is possible. The capacitance from parts to chassis is also reduced if the board is stood off from the chassis.

Another fault I find, say with CDP, is that each part has its own solder connection.

Using a pc board is not easy, but a job well done yields nice results.

[audiojerry]

Wouldn't the main downside for pcb be applicable only if using the printed wire traces? I've seen many applications where the pcb is used as a mounting board, and individual wires are soldered between parts. Wouldn't this method be superior over using the circuit traces?

[chadh]

There may be another reason to use PCBs.  Customers are easily scared of point-to-point wiring.

A few years ago, there was a huge controversy on head-fi when someone opened up his Singlepower headphone amp and took pictures of the point-to-point wiring scheme.  Many of the people who had been raving about the sound quality produced by these amps looked at the rat's nest and were immediately outraged to think that their units may have been unsafe.   Singlepower had advertised the fact that they used all point-to-point wiring as a sonic advantage, but it seems that people didn't appreciate how ugly it could be.  

These days, Singlepower uses beautiful, neat-looking PCBs in their amps.

Chad

[JoshK]

Wouldn't the main downside for pcb be applicable only if using the printed wire traces? I've seen many applications where the pcb is used as a mounting board, and individual wires are soldered between parts. Wouldn't this method be superior over using the circuit traces?

Not always, in short.  Again, there is more solder connections and less mechanical connection with perfboard type work, but I like to use perfboard a lot for my projects.  In any case, layout is key to good results.  I really like how Steve summed it up.

[TheChairGuy]

I have no innate opinion of this, I will merely weigh in with Steve Nugent/Empirical Audio on the subject from his white paper (on his website):

Circuit boards are generally poor for analog signal propagation, except for short paths, due to their high dielectric constant. They are acceptable for most digital applications, but not optimal for this either. They are convenient for attaching integrated circuits and transistors, so called "active" elements, and interconnecting these over short paths using "traces" or "nets". Ground planes or large copper fill areas are typically used for completing the circuits between active elements. Point-to-point wiring harnesses are generally superior

As this comes from the man partly responsible for bringing to us the Pentium 2 while at Intel, it's worthy of strong consideration  

[Kevin Haskins]

I have no innate opinion of this, I will merely weigh in with Steve Nugent/Empirical Audio on the subject from his white paper (on his website):

As this comes from the man partly responsible for bringing to us the Pentium 2 while at Intel, it's worthy of strong consideration  

Yes... you can choose to wire it point to point and live with more noise issues and less consistency unit to unit.   If you can hear the dielectric effects over all that extra noise then I'll lick your boots.

There are always Arlon & specialty Teflon circuit boards if you are willing to spare the expense and you are anal enough to worry about something that is totally immeasurable on the actual signal.

[Dan Banquer]

Actually a mix of both wire and PCB. Shielded coax is very useful from the front or rear panel down to the board, and the reason for this is that audio uses high impedance inputs so they tend to make wonderful receiving antennas for any noise pick up. A PC board etch has little or no shielding.
             d.b.

[TheChairGuy]

If you can hear the dielectric effects over all that extra noise then I'll lick your boots.

Size 9.5 / Medium width, Kevin.....and I've always been partial to the real Cowboy ones with spurs. Ouch - not a pleasant tongue-tingling experience