Digital amp comparison event.

goskers · « **Reply #20 on:** 12 Feb 2006, 12:59 am »

Care to explain Jimmy?

How would pulling out of this event be a good decision for an event so many will be awaiting the results of?

It seems to be garnering some head scratching from more than just myself.

jimmyp58 · « **Reply #21 on:** 12 Feb 2006, 01:02 am »

I'll spare the masses my editorial.

JoshK · « **Reply #22 on:** 12 Feb 2006, 01:09 am »

Quote from: jimmyp58

I'll spare the masses my editorial.

If you aren't going to explain, why did you post at all?

_scotty_ · « **Reply #23 on:** 12 Feb 2006, 05:18 am »

This may be stating the obvious for some people but any company with favorable reviews and a positive buzz in the mind of the buying public has nothing to gain from a shoot out like this and everything to loose.
The possibility always exists that your amp may be beat by a better sounding
amp or that you may have a failure in the field, the worst would be that you are no better than something that costs substantially less than your product. With no possible gain that can equal or surpass the reputation garnered by positive reviews and the potential downside risk inherent in any shootout it is only prudent of companies with a lot to loose to decline to be involved in an event such as this. Comparisions of products with positive reviews and high public profiles will have to wait for interested owners of such products to become involved in public comparisions like this to find out the true potential of this new breed of amplifiers and how the field scopes out on a performance basis.
Scotty

goskers · « **Reply #24 on:** 12 Feb 2006, 07:14 am »

Scotty,

I agree and see your point concerning the nuforce withdrawl. Knowing what the intention was all along, why would nuforce even throw their product into the mix to begin with?

Now that the group is growing larger, a sudden withdrawl just looks bad.

mrmusic · « **Reply #25 on:** 12 Feb 2006, 08:20 am »

Quote from: goskers

Scotty,

I agree and see your point concerning the nuforce withdrawl. Knowing what the intention was all along, why would nuforce even throw their product into the mix to begin with?

Now that the group is growing larger, a sudden withdrawl just looks bad.

We at Superphon are coming from the other direction...we have nothing to lose. Our amp is not in production, we have no market position, and unless people like our proto at this meeting we may not even build it. That's why we wanted to be involved: To find out where in the market spectrum our offering would be. Goskers is right...the real mistake for Nuforce was being involved in the first place. Now, the only thing worse than bailing out is staying in. We have other designs to consider if our switcher falls flat, Nuforce and Channel Islands are deeply committed to the products now in production. We understand and respect their decision to stay out of the fray. We are, however, still interested in the comparisons. Do any worthy individuals out there have units they could make available for the shootout? I hope Danny would be willing to consider using units other than from the manufacturer. It could be a little disappointing if only we, Edge, ART, and Exodus showed up. Perhaps another high end conventional amp or two could be included.
Chuck Jones
SUPERPHON

marvda1 · « **Reply #26 on:** 12 Feb 2006, 01:03 pm »

what if an owner(rival on the qt) of the nuforce amp wants to submit his personal amp for comparison?

_scotty_ · « **Reply #27 on:** 12 Feb 2006, 03:45 pm »

marvda1 said

Quote

what if an owner(rival on the qt) of the nuforce amp wants to submit his personal amp for comparison?

The way I look at it once you have paid for a product it is yours. What you do with it is your business. I don't see the need for submittal on the[ qt ],
if someone wanted to participate in the shootout they could just contact Danny with an offer of their amp and go from there.
Scotty

art · « **Reply #28 on:** 12 Feb 2006, 05:01 pm »

Gee, if you want more amps to compare.......I can send a UcD-based amp. If Dusty can not send one, then I can fill that void.

I am commited to both. I build both because some guys want one.......some want the other. I make a living by making good sounding equipment (that doesn't break the bank). I am not a zealot for one brand of amp module over the other. Some guys are.

Some guys are then stuck with its limitations and/or problems.

As for qualifying the system.............

I know from having built these amps for 3 years or so, that they sound very different from one system to the next. I have no control over who wants to purchase one of our products, so the more varied the range of evaluation systems, I think the better.

I know that it won't sound right on some systems, but if some fellow Texans want to hear one, then that is good enough for me.

As for including a tube amp...............

Having built amps using 2 types of Class D modules, I think that they sound closer to each other than they will to any conventional SS amp or tube amp. I think they spread within the Class D genre is much closer than the spread within SS or tube amps. I can make any of those go all over the map without trouble. A lot less wiggle room in Class D amps. Mind you, I am not saying that there is none, just less than with other topologies.

I bet there are a lot more guys who want to know how these amps stack up against other types of amps more than they do each other.

Am I right??????

If I am, one day may not be long enough.

Pat

TNT · « **Reply #29 on:** 12 Feb 2006, 05:12 pm »

Quote from: art

Having built amps using 2 types of Class D modules, I think that they sound closer to each other than they will to any conventional SS amp or tube amp. I think they spread within the Class D genre is much closer than the spread within SS or tube amps. I can make any of those go all over the map without trouble. A lot less wiggle room in Class D amps. Mind you, I am not saying that there is none, just less than with other topologies. ...

Is that a surprise when they use either Hypex or IcePower modules?

Danny Richie · « **Reply #30 on:** 12 Feb 2006, 11:42 pm »

Just a quick update:

Mark Lyon of Lyngdorf Audio is sending a SDA2175 (semi-digital amplifier). These use the same technology that was used in the Tact Audio amps.

Art, I received your amp yesterday. It is in a beautiful chassis. I like the Cardas inputs and binding posts too.

On the NuForce news: I am sorry to see them pull out. I wasn't sure that they would want their amps compared head to head against all the others to begin with, but I didn't want to not invite them. After making a commitment and sending four amps and a pre-amp to me only to announce pulling out certainly doesn't look real well, but I can understand them wanting to do so.

I did not ask Jason about it but he did comment privately to me this message regarding things said here after he posted his announcement that they were withdrawing. Jason said, "We have to listen for ourselves to make sure it brings out the best in Nuforce. I have no problem with other nuforce customer sending their amps to the event for comparison. It is a free country

. But we don't want to endorse until we have heard it."

Dusty at Channel Island Audio recommended asking if a customer in this area would like to bring any of his amps to the event and approved of me asking in his forum if there were any in this area that would like to do so. The reason that he could not send any is that he just didn't have any extra amps to send.

I still have no commitment from Brent as to whether he can send or bring one of the Halcro or PS Audio units either. He does not want to be without demo units for any period of time.

So let me just say that if anyone has a Halcro, PS Audio, Channel Island Audio, NuForce, or any other amp of this type and would like to send or bring them then please let me know.

HAL · « **Reply #31 on:** 13 Feb 2006, 01:46 am »

Oh, Man. If I lived near Danny's GTG, I would bring my balanced input D-200's.

This should be an interesting comparison!

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #32 on:** 13 Feb 2006, 04:06 am »

Quote from: TNT

Quote from: art
Having built amps using 2 types of Class D modules, I think that they sound closer to each other than they will to any conventional SS amp or tube amp. I think they spread within the Class D genre is much closer than the spread within SS or tube amps. I can make any of those go all over the map without trouble. A lot less wiggle room in Class D amps. Mind you, I am not saying that there is none, just less than with other topologies. ...

Is that a surprise when they use either Hypex or IcePower modules?

Not at all... I'd think that they are all pretty much the same. With the IcePower units there is almost no variability because they won't allow you to modify the units and they come with a SMPS on board. With the Hypex units you have the power supply as a variable and some people are playing with the modules. There isn't a whole lot that can be done though. Besides playing with caps, bypassing the DC blocking, power supply mods etc... there just isn't much to change. Even with changes they sound more alike than different and with blind testing I'll bet there won't be a statistical difference between them.

I'd like to be there to take part though. I'm as curious as the rest as to how big of an audible difference there is among the crowd. I've done some A/B comparisons but I'm as biased as the next guy with an interest in the outcome.

brj · « **Reply #33 on:** 13 Feb 2006, 03:05 pm »

Quote from: nuforce-jason

We need to have final approval of the setup and sound before we will agree to go ahead.

Do you "approve" the system of every reviewer that you send your amps to?

arthurs · « **Reply #34 on:** 13 Feb 2006, 03:11 pm »

NoForce....

ctviggen · « **Reply #35 on:** 13 Feb 2006, 03:15 pm »

Honestly, I think are too many amps and too many people for any real opinions to be drawn. Unless you really, really take care to prevent bias, you're going to end up with a mishmash of results no one can really decipher. I find it hard to compare two devices, let alone five or six. Then put a bazillion digital amps in the room together, all warming up, and you're asking for strange things to happen. When I went to one of Zybar's raves, there were several instances of feedback and other anomalies because of the number of wires running hodge podge everywhere and the number of devices in one room. Couple that with people saying "Oh yeah, that's a lot different" even when you can't really understand why, and you end up with something that's meaningless. Furthermore, how much time will each amp be given? Not enough time in my mind.

trekker · « **Reply #36 on:** 13 Feb 2006, 03:23 pm »

I didn't realize that Edge amps are digital/switching

I checked the website and didn't see anything mentioned about this. Is it included because it appears to have a switching power supply(PWM)

In any event, I'm really curious how 'ALL' the amps perform against one another.

art · « **Reply #37 on:** 13 Feb 2006, 04:13 pm »

There is variablity with ICEpower, as the output LPF interacts with the load. Look at their website: they show FR graphs at 3 different load Zs.

The UcD modules do not exhibit that problem.

Pat

kenk · « **Reply #38 on:** 13 Feb 2006, 04:14 pm »

Quote from: arthurs

NoForce....

cab · « **Reply #39 on:** 13 Feb 2006, 05:12 pm »

NuFarce ??? ':lol:'