[Carlman]

I believe you, Ava!  That's electronics even I can understand!
All the stuff AudioEngineer posted was the type of thing I was looking for in my original reply to this thread... It's just too bad I'm not an EE.  I'm a shadetree audiophile with very basic electronics skills.  I'm at the point where I need to take a class to really 'get it'.  

Eventually, I'll figure out how to measure, test, and display results that match a sonic difference.

-Carl

[Val]

I can only speak anectdotely (sp?) and that is to say my experiences have not mirrored yours.

Common doesn't make it right

To both of you, sorry for getting caught in the interesting discussion and not following my own advice. I (reluctantly) believe there are no "better" ways in audio, only "preferred" ways, because it is mostly subjective. Marbles' objection to what I thought was evident is proof of that.

There has been a similar discussion in philosophy ever since the British empiricists said that the proposition "this ice cream is good" is equivalent to "I like this ice cream" and not to "this rock is hard," the confusion due to the grammatical forms being the same. In other words, "this ice cream is good" is a subjective value judgment and not an objective factual judgment. When you add the psychical and physical differences of our internal ears and our perception apparatus, very few opinions in audio can still stand as factual.

I remember a discussion with a friend, both listening to the same B&W N805, he saying it sounded bright and I saying no way. I have listened to all the Nautilus line and none has sounded bright to me, but that is a constant rant on Audio Asylum, for example.

By the way and sadly, that British school triggered the value relativism that is rampant today in developed societies, where there are no objective moral truths.

Val

[Psychicanimal]

nobody is measuring.

Actually, at least one company that I know of IS measuring.  Kimber Kable relies heavily on measurements, and uses a very scientific methodology of data correlation to engineer cables.  

A great example of this is the Palladian power cord.  It virtually eliminates the harmful, audible effects of standing waves from your power source.  With that said, I don't own one, and I don't use any Kimber in my system currently.  If I could afford it, I certainly would.

The Kimber library is exhaustive with thousands of volumes, and I can attest to the fact that the measuring facilities are second to none at Kimber.  From quarter-million dollar network analyzers to a vast array of Tektronix scopes, and TDR's, etc. . .  They are out there doing the measurements.  They are one of the only high-end cable companies that I know of who are out there to engineer, and design the best cables using real science, and R&D.

Yeah, sure...

My friend José tried my 65 cents a foot military grade silver plated copper wire and ended up selling his $14/ft Kimber 8TC.      

[Hantra]

My Friend José tried my 65 cents a foot military grade silver plated copper wire and ended up selling his $14/ft Kimber 8TC.

That's why I am no longer going to post reviews on cables, and I am hesitant to make recommendations.  I have used everything from 4TC, KKSV, 47 Labs, Neutral Reference, MIT 750, PBJ, Silver Streak, Silver Lace, PAD and too many others to count.  

I have found that in every iteration of my system, different cables that were way better in the last system are not necessarily better in my system as it sits now.  This is a tough thing to get used to, and one can never really definitively say that one cable is "better" than another b/c it is way too system dependant. . .

Cables that got beat up on badly, actually kick other cables to the curb in different systems. . .

B

[nathanm]

Regarding speaker cables and interconnects, much of the differences heard here are easily determined with a capacitor meter.  The higher the capacitance of the cable, the brighter and "more detailed" it will sound to the listener.  This is because...etc.  Frank Van Alstine

Finally a simple explanation!  That makes sense to this layman.  To be able to correlate a measurment to a certain sonic signature is useful.  With this type of information the marketing depts. could say 'here's our brighter, high capacitance cable and here's our duller low capacitance cable'  just different 'flavors'.  Pick the one you want.  Instead they juice it up with all sorts of flowery subjective phrases that make your head spin.  They would also have you believe there is a LINEAR performance scale that increases with price, whereas if what Mr. Van Alstine says is true there wouldn't be such a thing, simply a matter of picking the tonality you desire with all the cables costing the same.

I don't expect this to happen of course, cause it makes too much sense.

[MaxCast]

Oh well, everybody is talking and nobody is measuring.

Regarding speaker cables and interconnects, much of the differences heard here are easily determined with a capacitor meter.  The higher the capacitance of the cable, the brighter and "more detailed" it will sound to the listener.  This is because the capacitive load slows down the output circuit and makes the feedback arrive later, which turns negative feedback into positive feedback, peaking the amplifier or preamp response.  Poor shielding also adds hum and noise to the system.  One can take a "high end" cable with a large capacitive load and add that same load to the output of the preamp or power amp with a 25 cent capacitor of the same value with standard two conductor zip cord used and get the same sonic results.  Of course the brightness and detail is wrong, it was not part of the source material, just a non-linearity generated in the equipment trying to drive a capacitve load.

Of course nobody will believe this or actually measure things and try it.

Frank Van Alstine

I missed this post from using the little yellow "new post" page.  Anyway, I agree, this the first simple explaination I've heard for the word brightness.  Thank you AVA!  Now if we can get simple explainations for all the other words nathanm is referring too we'd all be EE's

[Psychicanimal]

My Friend José tried my 65 cents a foot military grade silver plated copper wire and ended up selling his $14/ft Kimber 8TC.

That's why I am no longer going to post reviews on cables, and I am hesitant to make recommendations.  I have used everything from 4TC, KKSV, 47 Labs, Neutral Reference, MIT 750, PBJ, Silver Streak, Silver Lace, PAD and too many others to count.  

I have found that in every iteration of my system, different cables that were way better in the last system are not necessarily better in my system as it sits now.  This is a tough thing to get used to, and one can never really definitively say that one cable is "better" than another b/c it is way too system dependant. . .

Cables that got beat up on badly, actually kick other cables to the curb in different systems. . .

B

Speaker wire interacts very closely with the amplifier and speakers and as such, system dependent.

This surplus military grade signal transfer wire has been used in four or five good systems and it came out very good, especially for the money.   I hold the viewpoint that until power delivery/noise control and room acoustics are properly addressed, any comparison done can be shady.  This is especially true of power cords.  This military wire has bested an $800 XLO, the Kimber 8TC and when cryo'ed, was uncomfortably close to Pure Note Epsilon.

I love to get by with cheap alternatives...

[Psychicanimal]

Regarding speaker cables and interconnects, much of the differences heard here are easily determined with a capacitor meter.  The higher the capacitance of the cable, the brighter and "more detailed" it will sound to the listener.  This is because...etc.  Frank Van Alstine

Finally a simple explanation!  That makes sense to this layman.  To be able to correlate a measurment to a certain sonic signature is useful.  With this type of information the marketing depts. could say 'here's our brighter, high capacitance cable and here's our duller low capacitance cable'  just different 'flavors'.  Pick the one you want.  Instead they juice it up with all sorts of flowery subjective phrases that make your head spin.  They would also have you believe there is a LINEAR performance scale that increases with price, whereas if what Mr. Van Alstine says is true there wouldn't be such a thing, simply a matter of picking the tonality you desire with all the cables costing the same.

I don't expect this to happen of course, cause it makes too much sense.

I would like to use this space  to show this link:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/76032.html

It seems that in all cables, especially ICs and speaker's, that vibration control is extrtemely important.  I think the rigidity of my military wire has a lot to do with its good sound characteristics.  From what I understand, the Japanese have been aware of this for quite some time...

[nathanm]

Now if we can get simple explainations for all the other words nathanm is referring too we'd all be EE's

Well if we knew THAT there wouldn't be umpteen different cable vendors out there each with two dozen different offerings priced from here to the moon; each claiming some different kind of sound (or lack thereof) to be derived from their wires if there were logical, simple, repeatable characteristics that could be assumed from a given cable type\geometry\electrical measurement.  No, instead they've got us thinking cables are like the myriad spices of the world and while millions of our dollars are greasing the gears of commerce all that's really being pumped out is a couple different grades of salt.  Of course, this comes from someone who derives little pleasure from cable swapping, so you can take that with a grain of salt too!

How many variables are there in a wire?

What is the scale of audible, meaningful changes derived from these variables?

What does it really cost to affect these variables?

Is it possible to correlate an electrical measurement with a consistent subjective description of the sonic effect?

If between the EEs, the subjective listeners who can't tell much difference and the subjective listeners who can tell much difference there was some form of generalized consensus reached as to what different wire types actually do to the sound I don't think we'd have the crazy ass products we have today.  Maybe it's "no fun" then, but I can't fathom that there are SO many variables as to explain the sheer number of folks offering cables for stereos. Perhaps we need just the Windows\Apple\Unix flavors of cables; just three flavors... try 'em and get on with it.

[jcoat007]

Perhaps we need just the Windows\Apple\Unix flavors of cables; just three flavors... try 'em and get on with it.

Maybe that statement could also be applied to ice cream, cars, women, shoes, food and music.  It sure would make life easier.  You could say things like I eat ice cream #2, I drive car #1, my wife/girlfriend is a #3, my shoes are #3 and I only listen to #2 music.  

C'mon man, this is America.  Choices and more choices is the mantra of the day.  Don't deny me my choices, even if they're bad for me.  I mean I would never drive a #2 car or a #1 girlfriend, but I sure like having the option.

[Psychicanimal]

Then, Nathan, what kind of woman my Avatar represent?  

[hoxuanduc]

Psychicanimal,

Where do you get this cheapo wire that beats the KimberKable stuff?  Inquiring mind wants to know...

Thanks,

Duc

[DVV]

Oh well, everybody is talking and nobody is measuring.

Regarding speaker cables and interconnects, much of the differences heard here are easily determined with a capacitor meter.  The higher the capacitance of the cable, the brighter and "more detailed" it will sound to the listener.  This is because the capacitive load slows down the output circuit and makes the feedback arrive later, which turns negative feedback into positive feedback, peaking the amplifier or preamp response.  Poor shielding also adds hum and noise to the system.  One can take a "high end" cable with a large capacitive load and add that same load to the output of the preamp or power amp with a 25 cent capacitor of the same value with standard two conductor zip cord used and get the same sonic results.  Of course the brightness and detail is wrong, it was not part of the source material, just a non-linearity generated in the equipment trying to drive a capacitve load.

Of course nobody will believe this or actually measure things and try it.

Frank Van Alstine

Nonsense Frank, some have tried and believe you.

The problems you are running up against are, in my view, twofold:

1. The hype people have been unscrupulously fed over the last three decades, with a geometric progression over the last say 15 or so years. Seems it's every day a "revolutionary" idea crops up in one ad or another, in one mag or another, and it's plugged to the point where you start wondering what the hell have you been listening to so far, when this and only this will produce real sound. Look closer, and all too often you find this is a repackaged very old idea, or a fairly simple elaboration of well known principles - but you know this at least as well as I, probably better, and

2. It's a fact of life that same measuring components will produce different sound. This is again hyped up to biblical proportions whereas it's usually a fairly small difference. Here, you and I will probably say we may not be able to measure the difference either because we're not looking at what we should be, or because we still don't have the proper apparatus to reliably measure it (or measuring technique), whereas most will find this fascinating and soon enough, it's elevated to the level of science.

As an example, try replacing a say multilayer ceramic or mylar 3.3 pF capacitor, the one going from the emmitter of the simulated zener diode in a power amp to the feedback voltage divider with a silver mica one. They will all measure the same, but will produce different sounds. Granted, the differences are subtle, but they are there in normal, everyday use, not only under extreme conditions. Yet, on a 'scope, they all come out the same or all but same.

Tweakers are a particualer group, which I love dearly for their sometimes stunning inventiveness and common sense, but who also go very much astray on occasion. Bear in mind we are not talking about electronics, even auditioning here, we are talking about psychology - when you do something expecting positive results, because you have been told, have read so, even have been demonstrated so, you are geared up for positive change. Then, even a small improvement may appear to be subjectively large.

The only odd thing I find about the subjective school is how quickly they forget that they too can and be are subjective, especially when some really hard cases (fortunately absent from this site - so far) elevate their personal subjetiveness to the level of religion.

Cheers,
DVV

[Psychicanimal]

OUCH!

This is about to become really interesting.  The Serbian hope is here!


I don't fall for the *measurement* cult VA and Audioengr go for because I'm the Psychic Animal.  My grandmother was a Psychic, my mother's a Psychic and so I am (not as powerful, but gifted in different ways than them).  Classical acupuncture was used for almost 5 thousand years before the advent of the Meridian Resonance system, where voltages were measured and a patient's profile developed and tracked.  Did this make it not valid until then, when Chinese doctors were using their own Chi instead of electrodes?  Right.  What if I tell you guys I can redirect my energy w/ meditation and quartz crystals and other *devices* and that they get hot from the energy?  Measure that.

[nathanm]

Maybe that statement could also be applied to ice cream, cars, women, shoes, food and music.

No, it couldn't because those things have many more variables than a piece of wire.  Of course choices are good for most things, but really, how much variety can there be for something that carries an electrical signal from two components?  You'd think there'd be a lot considering they can cost anywhere from $2.50 to $25,000. I am not actually suggesting there be only 3 cable vendors, just that it seems to me that there are 300 different products that do maybe four different things.  Speaking abstractly here...

The only odd thing I find about the subjective school is how quickly they forget that they too can and be are subjective

Come again Dejan?  Crikey, I think there's something wrong with the wires between Yugoslavia and the AudioCircle server!

Ahh, it must've fixed itself cause this makes whole heaps 'o sense:

Bear in mind we are not talking about electronics, even auditioning here, we are talking about psychology - when you do something expecting positive results, because you have been told, have read so, even have been demonstrated so, you are geared up for positive change. Then, even a small improvement may appear to be subjectively large.

 And getting psychologically "geared up" to drop hundreds 'o bucks on a freaking power cord which is marketed to make objective, not psychological performance gains is something I personally think we could all do without.

Psychicanimal: Yes yes, we know - your avatar. Yadda yadda yadda...  How about upping the ante and using a fully nude woman?  That chick's legs are kinda manly anyway, and the motion blurs detract from the groinial garden action!  As far as nudity goes, it's kinda half-ass. I am not sure if there's a no-nude-avatars clause in the FAQ or not though...

[Psychicanimal]

Psychicanimal: Yes yes, we know - your avatar. Yadda yadda yadda...  How about upping the ante and using a fully nude woman?  That chick's legs are kinda manly anyway, and the motion blurs detract from the groinial garden action!  As far as nudity goes, it's kinda half-ass. I am not sure if there's a no-nude-avatars clause in the FAQ or not though...

Using a fully naked woman leaves virtually nothing to the imagination.  She's got strong legs, man.  Are ewe afraid of strong women?  

That photo was taken during a Miss Venezuela contest.  Her bikini "accidentally" came loose and a photographer took a Kodak moment...

I should scan and send you a picture of me and Yaxeni Oriquén, Central American & Caribbean female bodybuilding champion!  She's  extremely built--and from Venezuela, too!

[Psychicanimal]

You guys got to read this!!!

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1052881899&openflup&12&4#12

 

[DVV]

OUCH!

This is about to become really interesting.  The Serbian hope is here!


I don't fall for the *measurement* cult VA and Audioengr go for because I'm the Psychic Animal.  My grandmother was a Psychic, my mother's a Psychic and so I am (not as powerful, but gifted in different ways than them).  Classical acupuncture was used for almost 5 thousand years before the advent of the Meridian Resonance system, where voltages were measured and a patient's profile developed and tracked.  Did this make it not valid until then, when Chinese doctors were using their own Chi instead of electrodes?  Right.  What if I tell you guys I can redirect my energy w/ meditation and quartz crystals and other *devices* and that they get hot from the energy?  Measure that.

Nobody is asking you to fall for anything, Francisco. Read my post again and see for yourself, I was quite clear about it - there are things which when measured show up the same, but when used, sound different. I recognize that fact, as I have been recognizing it for decades, respectfully, while you were still in your bermudas licking a lollypop.

Let me make it as plain as I can - just because we cannot measure something at this time does not mean it doesn't exist. I completely agree with your Chinese medicine/accupuncture example, I have used it myself often enough.

On the other hand, Frank is at least partly right as well. It's also not infrequent that attributes are defined as beyond measurement, when in fact they can be measured and quantified.  Take your cryogenic bit as an example - what happens when you cryo something is generally well known in terms of metals, though far less known in terms of biological materials. Molecules align, reduce internal impedances and improve conductivity - but all of this generally CAN be measured, even if only with very sensitive equipment most of us don't have.

Which is why I never put myself in either camp without reservation; the truth has an odd knack of being in the middle most of the time, hardly ever left or right.

Cheers,
DVV

[Psychicanimal]

Yo!

I didn't say I was being asked to fall for anything either...

Measurements are important, but not everything.  The final proof is listening.

I'll tell you--last night I replaced the original outlet in my Elgar regenerator for a silver plate, cryo'ed ACME and the sound is unbearably bright!  Wonder if that can be measured...

[Jay S]

FWIW, my silver Acme's were very bright at the start but with break in they became natural sounding.  Oh my, see what I just did, I associated audio properties with electricity.