Crazy Maestro Thread at AVS Interesting!

Harry P · « **on:** 1 Feb 2006, 12:58 pm »

I emailed Mike to ask if I could post this. There is a thread at AVS on a shootout between the Maestro and a Paradigm 15 servo. It is very interesting reading! Note the crazy politics and how some people are so insanely hung up on output numbers. I think it a great reading for anyone intested in ACI products.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=637750

Make sure you read all the way through. The topic takes several major turns!

Tayler · « **Reply #1 on:** 2 Feb 2006, 03:15 am »

Interesting doesn't begin to describe it. Crazy gets a little closer. It's almost like a conspiracy sort of thing. I'm going to read it all again tomorrow. Mike, care to comment on the whole thing?

aggielaw · « **Reply #2 on:** 2 Feb 2006, 03:23 am »

Well, although I only skimmed the initial post, I think a word is in order here about APPLICATION. IMHO, a home theatre used primarily for movies does NOT need a fast, airy sub. It needs a boom box. In this application, output is much more important than speed.

For audio applications - which could include HT's where the owner watches/listens to a considerable amount of concert DVD's - speed is much more important than output, unless of course the sub cannot fill the room. In this case, of course, you make the argument for 2 subs much easier than it would be otherwise, and you get performance for your buck that can be measured in geometric proportions over buying a single high-end sub.

I'll go through the heretical posts later tonight, but given all the stuff I've read on a'gon over the last several years it doesn't surprise me to see the heretics exist in the HT realm as well. Can't wait until the "video cable wars" start. You know, "does my 100% silver, $4k HDMI cable make blacks blacker and colors sharper on my display" kind of war.

For the record, I have a Titan, and I don't care what people say about the "airyness" of REL subs or the "speed and accuracy" of servo subs a la Velodynes; I find my Titan to be a beautiful component in terms of both sound and style, and plan to add a second one later this year and be done with subs for several years!

Mike Dzurko · « **Reply #3 on:** 2 Feb 2006, 02:47 pm »

Harry:

Thanks for posting. For those who do head over . . . and I highly recommend it . . .be sure to get to the REAL conclusions. I can see where people are going to get the WAY wrong info if they only read part . . . a tip . . . . the OP ends up keeping the Maestro . . .

budyog · « **Reply #4 on:** 2 Feb 2006, 08:51 pm »

That is a great read. Very interesting. Thanks for the link Harry. It got a little to spec picky for me but nice to read the end result. I couldn't agree more. He made the right decision.
I have only had a couple Velodynes prior to the Maestro. The Velodyne HGS-15X seem to have a sound geared more for home theater. If that is possible. More of a boomy bass that sounded lound but not correct. The Maestro has a more tight and real sounding sound.
I wanted a sub more for music than movies. It seems to me that most sub manufactures are making them to perform more for home theater than the reproduction of music. And with a high majority of the public that gets so easily impressed with a loud, obnoxious, boomy bass, it would be easy to satisfy them.
Hats off to the ACI team. They have set a bar pretty high with quality sound, quality build, looks and customer service. I have been dealing with ACI for many years and they continue to impress me. If all american companies would be like ACI, maybe America would be back on track as a leader!

Mike Dzurko for president!

THE Guest · « **Reply #5 on:** 2 Feb 2006, 09:22 pm »

It took me a couple of hours, but I read just about ever word. People sure like to trip out on how loud a sub plays. One guy was in a great rush to post a graph showing the Paradigm played louder than the Maestro. Same guy in a big hurry to recommend the Paradigm over the Maestro. Then, when it turned out the data was wrong and the Maestro could play as loud as the Paradigm while sounding and lookng better, this guy gets all huffy and thinks something is wrong.

The biggest thing was the simple disregard for sound quality. It's like all these guys care about is loud bass! I must say I was impressed by the technical abilities and level heads of some of the forum vets.

I agree with Budy - - - hat's off to ACI!

Mike Dzurko · « **Reply #6 on:** 3 Feb 2006, 12:31 pm »

Thank you for all of us . . . . "My fellow Americans . . .I propose a high-end audio system in everyone's home by the end of the decade"

budyog · « **Reply #7 on:** 3 Feb 2006, 02:11 pm »

Right On! President Dzurko

ohenry · « **Reply #8 on:** 3 Feb 2006, 02:41 pm »

Quote from: THE Guest

It took me a couple of hours, but I read just about ever word. People sure like to trip out on how loud a sub plays. One guy was in a great rush to post a graph showing the Paradigm played louder than the Maestro. Same guy in a big hurry to recommend the Paradigm over the Maestro. Then, when it turned out the data was wrong and the Maestro could play as loud as the Paradigm while sounding and lookng better, this guy gets all huffy and thinks something is wrong. ...

Yes, it was a little surprising that some had tunnel vision regarding bass thumping dBs.

Is home theater becoming home-boy theater?

Harry P · « **Reply #9 on:** 10 Feb 2006, 03:50 am »

Quote from: ohenry

Yes, it was a little surprising that some had tunnel vision regarding bass thumping dBs.

Is home theater becoming home-boy theater?

Just read it again. I tell you what, seems like music is the last thing in mind over there sometime.

Mike Dzurko · « **Reply #10 on:** 10 Feb 2006, 09:23 pm »

I find AVS and HT to be interesting places. VERY alive and always changing. A lot of good information, and a lot of wrong information. Yes, it seems that how loud it plays still rules, but sound quality is gradually becoming more important. As little as a year ago, anyone who talked about a subwoofer’s “sound” on AVS or HT was pretty much blasted as a complete heretic . . . it was ALL about how many db at 20Hz at 10% dist. A lot of minds have opened over the last year or so . . . it takes time. Everyone wants to see sound quality as a number or chart . . . .listening takes TIME and you have to take RISKS.

I believe a lot of the folks on those two forums are relatively new to quality audio. They are at that point of the curve where they are learning a LOT in a fairly short period of time. The internet has accelerated that curve as far as technical info, but it doesn't substitute for time spent listening to real, live music, and then taking that back and comparing to the reproduction. I bet a lot of those folks have very limited experience with great two-channel. It’s a natural progression with audiophiles to go from how loud, to how much does it sound like real music.

DanaA · « **Reply #11 on:** 13 Feb 2006, 04:20 am »

Right on Mike. Like you, I'm a teacher. Tons of my students own those mega-sub systems in their cars. All they know...all they seem to be interested in...is how loud they can go. Some of them seem to only play one note - a thump.

I'm from the days when two-channel systems was it, unless you consider the short-lived quadraphonic sound. To this day, I prefer sound that seduces the listener, rather than slaps them in the face. For that reason, I have longed for one of your subs. They receive exemplary reviews consistently for the reasons you mentioned.

Unfortunately, I can't afford to buy now as I'm deep into my newest pastime -cycling (already bought a hybrid, a road bike, and an indoor spincycle in the last year). But, one day, after I get my dream bike, I will.

On a side note, finally got around to calibrating my daughter's boyfriends speaker system from you guys. Sounds amazing...especially for the money. I was most interested in your inwall speakers used as surrounds and they certainly seemed to do the trick. Not like my Sapphire, Essence, and Emerald on-walls, but, again, for the money, way beyond most. Funny thing is that three or four of my friends have bought speakers from you in the last year, but I never got around to their places to give a listen.

Craig Chase · « **Reply #12 on:** 14 Feb 2006, 04:44 am »

There is a thread going on comparing ported to sealed subwoofers. A VERY knowledgible gent posted that the movie "Open Range" would be an excellent test. As a die hard audiophile, I first mentioned this movie in a review exactly 2 years ago tonight. The gun fight scene at the end is a KILLER subwoofer test.

The 20 something, when told to listen to this scene, actually asked "Do you have them graphed? "

WHATever happened to listening ?

Mike Dzurko · « **Reply #13 on:** 14 Feb 2006, 06:03 pm »

Quote from: Craig Chase

There is a thread going on comparing ported to sealed subwoofers. A VERY knowledgible gent posted that the movie "Open Range" would be an excellent test. As a die hard audiophile, I first mentioned this movie in a review exactly 2 years ago tonight. The gun fight scene at the end is a KILLER subwoofer test.

The 20 something, when told to listen to this scene, actually asked "Do you have them graphed? "

WHATever happened to listening ?

Craig:

Just classic . . . a lot of relative beginners would rather see a graph or numbers than take the time to listen. Listening involves risks . . . me, I'd rather listen than look at a graph

Anonymous · « **Reply #14 on:** 14 Feb 2006, 06:30 pm »

When I was "new" to audio, I also started on AVS. Thus, my SVS sub. Now, I've gravitated to here, although I've also been gravitating lately to DIYaudio.com. I think you'll find people still like curves -- on DIYaudio, there was a long thread about how poorly the new Wilsons measure. While I like graphs (you can't not like graphs if you were ever an engineer), there's certainly something to be said for listening. I find that I have to recalibrate myself with regard to what sounds good. When I first got my SVS sub, I thought it was the best thing ever. Now that I have it in a much larger room with many more room treatments, it's a bit overwhelmed. Part of that is because the one-note boom has been lessened by the room treatments. The "impact" for movies is still there -- it's just subdued. I have to retrain myself to think that accuracy and not boominess is what I should be looking for.

ctviggen · « **Reply #15 on:** 14 Feb 2006, 06:30 pm »

woops. That was me.

Mike Dzurko · « **Reply #16 on:** 15 Feb 2006, 12:13 am »

Quote from: DanaA

Right on Mike. Like you, I'm a teacher. Tons of my students own those mega-sub systems in their cars. All they know...all they seem to be interested in...is how loud they can go. Some of them seem to only play one note - a thump.

I'm from the days when two-channel systems was it, unless you consider the short-lived quadraphonic sound. To this day, I prefer sound that seduces the listener, rather than slaps them in the face. For that reason, I have longed for one of your subs. They receive exemplary revie ...

I remember when I first started hanging out at a stereo shop, I think I was around 13 or 14. My friend, who had already built a couple of Dynakits caught me with the loudness button in and bass turned up on my Dad's Fisher . . . . he semi-politely explained how all beginners started off infatuated with bass, and then they gradually got a clue and started going for the overall musical presentation.

I can relate tlo the bikes. Since my Olympic wanna be road racing days in the 70s, I've loved riding bike. My own machines are getting pretty long in the teeth, but they still work pretty well.

budyog · « **Reply #17 on:** 16 Feb 2006, 02:52 am »

Boy, it's funny how that thread on AVS just all of a sudden stopped. I guess that is what happens when they are put in their place. You buy a "Maestro" and their is no need to search any further. You have found the best. It don't get any better than when you have a Maestro. It is a killer subwoofer.
I have been tweeking with my (slightly defective and waiting for the replacement) R-DES and my Rat Shak SPM and boy do I have it dialed in and sounding smooth, tight and powerful. I love this sub. Now I want another one. I see ACI has my matching "Maestro" in there b-stock at a very good price.