Initial review of stock SB3 vs. Modified SB3 vs. Transport

davehg · « **on:** 30 Jan 2006, 04:15 am »

I had hoped to write a long detailed review of several things: the SB3 unmodified vs. a power supply upgrade, and a Bolder-modified SB3 vs. Stock, and the modified vs. my transport, etc. I was overly ambitious; with two young boys, I am lucky to get uninterrupted listening time twice a week. I had a few hours this weekend

, so this will be a quick overview.

I’ve written a number of reviews for gear I’ve owned, but this was probably the toughest. Usually, there is a clear “winner” if I am comparing products, but the Squeezebox has me alternatively smiling, tapping my toe, gritting my teeth, or puzzling over whether the sound I hear is better or the same.

My source: Mac Mini 1.44ghz 512gb RAM, with 2 LaCie 250gb drives (one for storage, one for backup). Connects to SB3 via wireless or Ethernet using a crossover cable. SB3 feeds a Music Fidelity Tri-Vista 21 DAC via Acoustic Zen MC2 digital cable. My CD transport is a rare Pioneer Elite PD-S95, a showpiece 40 lb stable platter transport that Pioneer made in tiny quantities, and last sold for $3k, and with a brand new laser and a Herbie Grundgebuster CD mat). Music burned via iTunes (WAV with error correction on). Stock SB3 (wifi) and Bolder modified SB3 (digital only mod, with Deluxe PS).

Stock SB3 vs. Transport/Tri-Vista.
No contest. The transport smoked a stock SB3. Bass through the SB3 was thinner, soundstage was flatter, highs lacked air and extension, voices and instruments did not have the definition and weight of the transport/DAC combo. I will say that a stock SB3 does acquit itself rather nicely for $300; however, high end CD manufacturers should not lose sleep fearing a stock SB3 will take sales away. But they shouldn’t rest easy…

Stock SB3 into Tri-Vista vs. Transport/Tri-Vista
Much closer, but the Transport/Tri-Vista held the lead. Biggest areas of difference were still bass definition, soundstage, and “airiness”. The Transport/Tri-Vista still had that “presence” and palpability unique to high end gear, while the SB3/Tri-Vista was a cut below. I would compare the stock SB3/Tri-Vista combo to my old transport: a Technics DVD A10, or a cheapie Toshiba. Good, but you only find out what you are missing when you add a really good dedicated transport and digital cable.

Stock SB3 with upgraded Bolder Deluxe PS/Tri-Vista vs. Transport/Tri-Vista
It is getting much closer now. Switching back and forth, they are both very musical. But the transport is still more believable, more realistic in rendering differences between vocals and instruments. By analogy, my VAC Avatar has two modes; triode and ultralinear. Triode is sweet and the presence is quite amazing (SET-like); Ultralinear rocks more but is less involving. Both are musical, but my preference is triode mode and its “reach out and touch the musicians” appeal. This is the same as I heard with the SB3 vs. transport. The SB3 was like the ultralinear mode, the transport like the triode mode.

Bolder Digital Upgrade/Deluxe PS/Tri-Vista vs. Transport/Tri-Vista
WOW!!!!

What happened? The roles are nearly reversed. Now, vocals through the SB3 are stunning and pure. Detail abounds; you can hear the layers of instruments in good classical and jazz recordings; steel pedal guitars resonate wonderfully with that instantly recognizable tone. Bass detail is far more distinct with the SB3. The transport, by comparison, now sounds “grundgier”, with less detail.

However, the transport seems to imbue the vocals and instruments with a bit more “weight” and body. The SB3 bests the transport in most areas except for this “body” thing. And while the SB3’s bass detail is much better, the transport actually seems to add more bass slam. It’s as if the SB3 is tad lightweight. Both are really really musical, and I have to hold my leg still when listening critically. But I think the SB3 gains the upper hand here. I brought my wife in for a listen (what a great sport, listening to 10 repeat loops of Three Dog Night, Al Green, Norah Jones, and Martin Sexton). She preferred the SB3 too, but also noticed the SB3 seemed just a tiny tad lighter sounding than the transport.

I tried a few things to see if something else was contributing to the lack of weight. First, I switched the Asylum cable (DIY AC cable) I was using with the Bolder PS to a Cardas Golden reference cable.

Much better. Now some of the weight seems to return. I’d like to get another Foundation Research LC-1 power cable/conditioner to add to the mix, this solved similar problems before and outperformed the Cardas AC cable. But an LC-1 costs $800 new, and I’ve already sunk enough into the SB3 and mods and Mac Mini system. Hmm, anyone want to trade a Foundation Research LC-1 for mint condition transport?

The convenience of the SB3/Mac Mini combo would probably be enough by itself for me to switch completely over. Now, the sound quality is pretty much better in almost all areas over my CD transport. It’s no contest.

The only thing nagging at me to keep my transport around is the general reliability of computer systems vs. audio gear. I’ve had a few hiccups with the SB3 connecting to the Mac Mini, all caused by standard networking or computer performance issues (that was the teeth gritting I referred to above). Also, if the labels have their way, future CD’s will be copy-protected and may not actually be able to be ripped to computer.

GHM · « **Reply #1 on:** 30 Jan 2006, 04:51 am »

Thanks for the well rounded review. Good Stuff!!

This is why I'm in no rush to drop my modded transport/ DAC. It does the job minus the grudge thing just fine.

Body is something I'm not willing to live without in my music.

Good listening

mgalusha · « **Reply #2 on:** 30 Jan 2006, 05:03 am »

Nice writeup and after living with a modded SB2 since August I've become quite fond of the little guy. You mention a somewhat light/thin sound, this is also present when using the analog outputs. I recently had a chance to hear one of the Bolder "ultimate" SB power supplies. It addressed that issue in spades. It delivered body to a tenor sax that was nearly physical and vocals had proper weight as did piano and wooden instruments. Very very nice but unfortunately very expensive. Not saying you should buy one (I can't afford that for a PS) but just to say that it gets better with a nicer PS.

yo2tup · « **Reply #3 on:** 30 Jan 2006, 05:51 am »

thanks for the review!

I've been thinking of getting the digital upgrade for my sb3, but says there's a 6-8 week lead time. i dont think i can be without my sb3 for that long!

jermmd · « **Reply #4 on:** 30 Jan 2006, 06:22 am »

Are you using the most recent firmware with your SB3's?

Charles Calkins · « **Reply #5 on:** 30 Jan 2006, 10:16 am »

I never had the opportunity to get together with someone who was able to do a comparison of systems like davehg has done. But for some reason I had a gut feeling that the results would be like what davehg experienced. I look at the SB3 as just a very clever toy. To get max. performance out of one it has to be heavily modified. Now that really opens a can of worms.!
Just because davehg got the results he did won't stop me from getting an SB3. I like pretty ladies, Martim
ni's and clever toys.
Thanks davehg!!! Very nice report.

Cheers
Charlie

mr_bill · « **Reply #6 on:** 30 Jan 2006, 04:01 pm »

Great work Dave,

I really like my SB3 into a Benchmark Dac1.
I just purchased an upgraded power supply off Ebay and will give a try.

I'm wondering how much a difference the upgraded power supply made to the equation when you are using them both as transports. It would be interesting to know how much the upgraded power supply contributes versus the upgraded digital output mod.

Thanks,
Bill

srayle · « **Reply #7 on:** 30 Jan 2006, 04:19 pm »

mr_bill,

What upgraded power supply did you buy on ebay, if I may ask? I need to get one, but don't know what to buy.

Thanks

srayle · « **Reply #8 on:** 30 Jan 2006, 04:20 pm »

mr_bill,

What upgraded power supply did you buy on ebay, if I may ask? I need to get one, but don't know what to buy.

Thanks

Wayne1 · « **Reply #9 on:** 30 Jan 2006, 05:29 pm »

Dave,

Thanks for the comments on the power supply and the modded SB3.

As Mike as stated, the Ultimate supply gives a great deal more "weight" to the sound. For those with the Deluxe power supply, I should be able to upgrade it to get it very close to the Ultimate in sound.

I have been experimenting with different power cables from the PS to the SB. I have found a diferent geometry that improves things. There is less "noise" and the music does have more body. using this cable will require a slight rewiring of the DC ouput jack on the Basic Rev 1 and Deluxe power supplies.

Using a balanced power conditioner does help the performance of the SB. You can DIY a Felecia, or try one of the commercial models. All variations that we have tried in CO have made a good improvement. These includ a Felecia, BPT, Monster and Equi=Tech.

The SB is very sensitive to AC power cables. Try different designs to see what works in your system. In three systems out here, shielded power cables(Belden 19364, aka the Asylum cable) do not sound as dynamic and open as unshielded. Our favorite so far is a Nitro Plus, cryo-treated, with a pair of Bybee purifiers built in and Oyaide connectors.

Paul_Bui · « **Reply #10 on:** 30 Jan 2006, 05:57 pm »

Thanks DaveHG for the review.

I wonder what amp are you and mgalusha using when assessing the modded SB2. IMHO, a synergy among source (xport/dac), amp, and speakers is needed if a modded SB2's potentials are fully realized and appreciated.

After realizing that my BB FTA2000s are power hungry especially with the BSC circuits installed, I decided to put the Audio Sector's 50w Patek into the equation, and the relatively lightweight character is replaced with a full body, warm, and dynamic representation of music. Since then the SB2 (RWA full battery modded), together with the rest of the "team" has become a no-brainer, great and lovely sounding component in my room. It makes me stop wondering about upgrading to better sound.

Caveat #1: I sold the TPC modded Shanling SCD200, so there's no transport for me to compare the SB2 with.

Caveat #2: Purely out of curiosity and the need to leave the Patek on 24/7, I am trying the Audio Sector's NOS DAC board just to be able to turn off and recharge the SB2 battery w/o switching off the amp. A comparison of the SB2's analog OUT and xport(SB2)/DAC OUT into the same Patek/FTA2000s would be a new topic.

mr_bill · « **Reply #11 on:** 30 Jan 2006, 05:57 pm »

See Pete's post in the SB3 power supply thread.
You'll see an Ebay link. That's the PS I bought, but haven't received. It was inexpensive, we'll see if it makes an improvement.
Thanks,
bill

JoshK · « **Reply #12 on:** 30 Jan 2006, 06:02 pm »

Wayne,

You guys built a Felicia? cool...

Wayne1 · « **Reply #13 on:** 30 Jan 2006, 07:10 pm »

Josh,

Sorry for the misspelling

Mike built one inside his SB2 power supply. here
We compared it to Jerry's ( which is now just about the same as Mike's without the Felicia transformers and caps. We used Mike's BPT and Pete's BPT and Jerry's modded Monster balanced conditioners for comparison. The balanced power conditioners ALL improved the sound of the power supplies.

Mike's system can be seen here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=systems;system=1

He is not using the pre-amp between the modded SB2 and the LNPA amps. He ha completely redone the Meadowlarks with mostly new, matched drivers, new wire and Sonicap Platinum caps in the crossover. His SB2 has been modded further with Sonicap Platinum Bypasses and Bybee Slipstream Purifiers in the analog output.

He has modded his SB2 power supply beyond what he has posted. Bybees have gone into it. Silver wire and some new PS caps. It is very close to the Ultimate PS that I built.

ctviggen · « **Reply #14 on:** 30 Jan 2006, 07:25 pm »

Quite impressive -- A Felicia and a power supply in one box.

JoshK · « **Reply #15 on:** 30 Jan 2006, 07:56 pm »

That's right, I remember seeing that.

Sorry if I am a little daft, but are you saying the BPT's further improved upon the Felicia'd power supply, or that the Felicia & all the BPTs improved the basic power supply?

Wayne1 · « **Reply #16 on:** 30 Jan 2006, 08:10 pm »

I beleive Mike feels his PS with the Felicia built in sounds better direct into the wall rather than through his BPT.

In general, any power supply feeding the SB2 sounds better through a balanced power conditioner. I was not really able to tell much difference between Mike's plugged into the wall and Jerry's plugged into a BPT.

This was when we were comparing them at Pete's here

Both Mike and Jerry have upgraded their PS since then to get them closer to the Ultimate

mgalusha · « **Reply #17 on:** 30 Jan 2006, 08:40 pm »

Wayne is correct, with the Felicia built into the chassis of my SB power supply it sounds best when fed straight from the line. Jerry's PS fed from the BPT or monster balanced power sounds very similar as my Felicia/SB hybrid from the wall.

As Wayne mentioned, I've since changed my Felicia/SB power supply and it now has some of the way-too-expensive Jensen four pole caps in it. Though painfully expensive, they raised the level of performance up quite a bit and I believe justified the cost.

Mike

randytsuch · « **Reply #18 on:** 30 Jan 2006, 10:27 pm »

Quote from: mgalusha

Wayne is correct, with the Felicia built into the chassis of my SB power supply it sounds best when fed straight from the line. Jerry's PS fed from the BPT or monster balanced power sounds very similar as my Felicia/SB hybrid from the wall.

As Wayne mentioned, I've since changed my Felicia/SB power supply and it now has some of the way-too-expensive Jensen four pole caps in it. Though painfully expensive, they raised the level of performance up quite a bit and I believe justified the cost.

Mike

Well, you could have used 10,000 uf blackgates, at $170 a pop. And the Jensens probably sound better (never tried the big blackgates for some reason).

Randy

davehg · « **Reply #19 on:** 31 Jan 2006, 01:52 am »

Quote from: Paul_Bui

Thanks DaveHG for the review.

I wonder what amp are you and mgalusha using when assessing the modded SB2. IMHO, a synergy among source (xport/dac), amp, and speakers is needed if a modded SB2's potentials are fully realized and appreciated.

After realizing that my BB FTA2000s are power hungry especially with the BSC circuits installed, I decided to put the Audio Sector's 50w Patek into the equation, and the relatively lightweight character is replaced with a full body, warm, and dynamic representatio ...

I am using a VAC Avatar SE, a 30wpc (in Triode) integrated tube amp. It is attached to an upgraded FIM AC outlet, and uses a Foundation Research LC-2 power cord/conditioner. I run the Tri-Vista into the same outlet using an LC-1. The rest of the gear (the SB3 and the REL) is connected to a JR filter (the DIY version) using all Cardas Golden Reference AC cables; this filter (with its 4 outlets) is connected to another upgraded AC outlet in the same room.

I don't think the VAC is particularly power hungry, and I know the REL is not. Wayne @ Bolder and a few others have opined that upgrading the Bolder PS with Jensen caps will add more body, as will a revised power cable. I have found Wayne's comments to be spot on in prior gear, so it looks like I am getting out my wallet again.