Which tubes (and how many) are currently used in the 550EXR?

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tonyptony


mark funk

Which tubes (and how many) are currently used in the 550EXR?
« Reply #1 on: 29 Jan 2006, 04:44 pm »
Hi, My 550EXR has two JJ Electronics 12AT7/ECC81 tubs.  :)

tonyptony

Which tubes (and how many) are currently used in the 550EXR?
« Reply #2 on: 29 Jan 2006, 04:48 pm »
Thanks Mark. What's the rest of your system like?

mark funk

Which tubes (and how many) are currently used in the 550EXR?
« Reply #3 on: 29 Jan 2006, 05:53 pm »
Well let see, We have a Transcendence 5SLR, Transcendence R-DAC, Fet-Valve 550 EXR6, Marantz CD5400 I use for a CD transport, Adcom GTP350 for a tuner. Speakers, Dahlquist DQ10s and Magnepan MG1s with a Kensingtion Subwoofer. All of my AVA electronics uses JJ 12AT7/ECC81 tube but if your preamp has phono circuits you will have two 12AX7/ECC83 tubs also. I must say I am vary happy with my AVA gear, made my DQ10s sound like new speakers. :mrgreen:

tonyptony

Which tubes (and how many) are currently used in the 550EXR?
« Reply #4 on: 29 Jan 2006, 06:04 pm »
Ah, the DQ10! I remember spending hours at a high-fi shop in Harvard Square lsitening to DQ10s being fed by Phase Linear electronics! This was back in the early 80s. The nice thing was they never kicked this penniless college student out, no matter how many times I came in just to sit and listen to music. I remember loving that sound. I think that shop eventually turned into a Goodwins, but I haven't been back to the Square in a good 4-5 years.

I'm about to take ownership of a used but clean 550EXR5. What's the differnece going to the Rev6?

Mark, I am a little confused, though. You mentioned 12AX7 in one post and 12AT7 in another. Are they different?

mark funk

Which tubes (and how many) are currently used in the 550EXR?
« Reply #5 on: 29 Jan 2006, 06:58 pm »
Hi, 12AX7 tubs are a higher gain tube used for the RIAA phono circuits, The 12AT7 tube is a lower gain tube. Frank uses these tubs in the line stage of his preamps and in the Fet-Valve amps and DACs. A 12AU7 tube has lower gain yet. :smoke:

mark funk

Which tubes (and how many) are currently used in the 550EXR?
« Reply #6 on: 29 Jan 2006, 07:16 pm »
The Rev. 6 is a adjustment to something at the 500kHz range, I am not an electrical engineer so I cant say what it was, but it was not a recall just done for free when your amp was in for what ever.

skrivis

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Which tubes (and how many) are currently used in the 550EXR?
« Reply #7 on: 30 Jan 2006, 12:33 am »
Quote from: mark funk
Hi, 12AX7 tubs are a higher gain tube used for the RIAA phono circuits, The 12AT7 tube is a lower gain tube. Frank uses these tubs in the line stage of his preamps and in the Fet-Valve amps and DACs. A 12AU7 tube has lower gain yet. :smoke:


The 12AT7 is lower gain, but higher current. David Manley (used to be with VTL) recommended them for line stage use over the 12AX7 quite a few years back. (It was in the VTL Tube Book. I have a copy somewhere, but I think it might be available on the web now.)

Guitar amps normally use the 12AX7 for gain stages, but they want tons of gain in general, plus the input signal is quite low level (it's more than a MM phono cart., but far less than from a tuner or CD player). The 12AT7 was often used to drive the spring reverb tank, since you need more current to do that.

If you can find an old copy of the Radio Amateur's Handbook from the ARRL (I have the 1956 edition), you can find out quite a bit about tube circuits. The Radiotron Designer's Handbook is even better (I've got the 4th Ed. and it's excellent), but it tends to be pretty expensive to buy.

The companies that made tubes also often had good manuals, with example circuits. I like the RCA Tube Manual best.

There is also more info scattered around on the web. You can simulate the circuitry on the computer (check into SPICE), or you can just put stuff together and try it out. Tubes are nice because they don't go up in smoke right away if you goof. :)

I should point out that AVA hybrid equipment is not a good place to be fiddling around and experimenting. I found this out the hard way. :)

tonyptony

Which tubes (and how many) are currently used in the 550EXR?
« Reply #8 on: 30 Jan 2006, 01:44 am »
Quote from: skrivis
I should point out that AVA hybrid equipment is not a good place to be fiddling around and experimenting. I found this out the hard way.


That sounds like a story worth telling for new FetValve owners like me. Let me say that I am NOT a tube roller - that's precisely a major reason why I did not want a tube preamp. Having spoken to Frank, I also figured that he already got the best sound he could after sleceting the tubes that he did for the FetValve. Please let us know what happened.

skrivis

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Which tubes (and how many) are currently used in the 550EXR?
« Reply #9 on: 30 Jan 2006, 12:03 pm »
Quote from: tonyptony
Quote from: skrivis
I should point out that AVA hybrid equipment is not a good place to be fiddling around and experimenting. I found this out the hard way.


That sounds like a story worth telling for new FetValve owners like me. Let me say that I am NOT a tube roller - that's precisely a major reason why I did not want a tube preamp. Having spoken to Frank, I also figured that he already got the best sound he could after sleceting the tubes that he did for the FetValve. Please let us know what happened.


First of all, I was swapping tubes in an FetValve amp - which I later found out was not at all a good thing. :oops:  (You can swap tubes in a preamp, but not the amps.)

Beyond that, I'm not sure exactly what happened. I swapped some tubes in and out and the amp sounded worse than with the stock tubes. I put in another pair, turned the amp on, and one of the tubes flashed bright blue.   That channel was dead and putting another tube in didn't help.

I sent it back to AVA and they fixed it for a small fee. I had evidently taken out a MOSFET in the front end.

I resolved to keep my nose out of the amp.



Frank has stated that it's ok to tube roll in the preamps, but not the amps.

Personally, I figure that you don't stand much chance of improving your preamp. The tubes that Frank sells are closely matched and tested. They're also ones that Frank knows will perform well for that application.

When you buy tubes anywhere else, you're not going to necessarily get that testing and matching. Even if they do test and match, and they testing and matching the right characteristics?

Furthermore, you don't always even know what you're getting. Let's say the stock tubes produce a gain of X in the circuit.

What will tubes that you buy elsewhere produce? If they're X-y they will make your preamp sound kind of mushy. (Lower gain is not a good thing in this case.) If they're X+y you are in good shape. Except.... how do you know whether they're higher gain, the same, or lower? What are those really expensive NOS, rubbed between the thighs of virgins, military grade 12AX7s? Will the seller guarantee they're higher gain?

Ok, that's just my take on it. I'm not a big fan of tube rolling at this point.


Now, guitar amps are different. They're actually musical instruments and the player can swap tubes in and maybe get just what they want. Poorer performance can be a good thing with guitar amps. :) I think tube rolling started with guitar players, and people were trying all kinds of things. You might want to try old tubes in an old amp to try to get the same kind of sound your hear in old recordings. Somebody decides that whatever brand of tubes is wonderful and passes the word along. Pretty soon the price of NOS tubes goes from trash to 24K.

Also, don't forget that there were a lot of vendors who had bought big batches of old tubes that they had sitting around costing them money. They could very well be responsible for the perception of NOS as being "better." I know I'd try that if I were in that business. :)

skrivis

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Which tubes (and how many) are currently used in the 550EXR?
« Reply #10 on: 30 Jan 2006, 12:29 pm »
Quote from: skrivis
First of all, I was swapping tubes in an FetValve amp - which I later found out was not at all a good thing. :oops:  (You can swap tubes in a preamp, but not the amps.)

Beyond that, I'm not sure exactly what happened. I swapped some tubes in and out and the amp sounded worse than with the stock tubes. I put in another pair, turned the amp on, and one of the tubes flashed bright blue.   That channel was dead and putting another tube in didn't help.

I sent it back to AVA and they fixed it for a small fe ...



BTW, when I originally said not to mess around in FV equipment, I wasn't so much referring to swapping tubes as to trying to fix it or re-engineer it. It's not as simple as a lot of plain tube equipment. Tubes are relatively easy to understand and to fiddle with. SS is easier to break catastrophically if you do something wrong with your clumsy mitts. hehe

tonyptony

Which tubes (and how many) are currently used in the 550EXR?
« Reply #11 on: 30 Jan 2006, 01:19 pm »
Quote from: skrivis
Tubes are relatively easy to understand and to fiddle with. SS is easier to break catastrophically if you do something wrong with your clumsy mitts. hehe


Yes, I have firsthand experience in that regard with SS gear. Thanks for this life lesson!

skrivis

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Which tubes (and how many) are currently used in the 550EXR?
« Reply #12 on: 30 Jan 2006, 02:23 pm »
Quote from: tonyptony
Quote from: skrivis
Tubes are relatively easy to understand and to fiddle with. SS is easier to break catastrophically if you do something wrong with your clumsy mitts. hehe


Yes, I have firsthand experience in that regard with SS gear. Thanks for this life lesson!


It probably isn't a real issue for most people with FV preamps who do tube rolling. In my case, I have lots of old tubes of more or less unknown provenance. (My Dad bought lots of surplus electronics, mostly military.) At one point I had access to a nice Hickok tube tester, but it didn't seem worth it to buy one after that. That was probably a mistake. :)

ricmon

Which tubes (and how many) are currently used in the 550EXR?
« Reply #13 on: 30 Jan 2006, 03:08 pm »
Quote from: skrivis
First of all, I was swapping tubes in an FetValve amp - which I later found out was not at all a good thing. :oops:  (You can swap tubes in a preamp, but not the amps.)

Beyond that, I'm not sure exactly what happened. I swapped some tubes in and out and the amp sounded worse than with the stock tubes. I put in another pair, turned the amp on, and one of the tubes flashed bright blue.   That channel was dead and putting another tube in didn't help.

I sent it back to AVA and they fixed it for a small fe ...


My system sounded tons better after swapping out the tubes in the line stage the phone section and the amp.  Thinngs have never souned better.  I say gett rid of the stock tubes.

skrivis

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Which tubes (and how many) are currently used in the 550EXR?
« Reply #14 on: 30 Jan 2006, 03:13 pm »
Quote from: ricmon
My system sounded tons better after swapping out the tubes in the line stage the phone section and the amp.  Thinngs have never souned better.  I say gett rid of the stock tubes.


Maybe you got lucky. :)

Not everyone will be so lucky though.

Did you get higher gain tubes than stock, matched channel to channel?

ricmon

Which tubes (and how many) are currently used in the 550EXR?
« Reply #15 on: 30 Jan 2006, 03:35 pm »
I got a pair of siemens tri maica 12at7wa/ecc81's  for the 550 from http://www.tubeworld.com and a pair of Telfunkens from a AC member and a pair of RCA 12ax7/ecc83's for the phone section from the tubedepot.com.  I'm not a tube roller but changing the tubes worked for me.

skrivis

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Which tubes (and how many) are currently used in the 550EXR?
« Reply #16 on: 30 Jan 2006, 04:40 pm »
Quote from: ricmon
I got a pair of siemens tri maica 12at7wa/ecc81's  for the 550 from http://www.tubeworld.com and a pair of Telfunkens from a AC member and a pair of RCA 12ax7/ecc83's for the phone section from the tubedepot.com.  I'm not a tube roller but changing the tubes worked for me.


I just realized that you had mentioned the 550. I thought we were talking about preamps.

You might want to send the amp back to AVA so they can adjust it for the new tubes. Frank has stated several times here that swapping to a different tube in the FV amps is not something the owner can do on their own.

ricmon

Which tubes (and how many) are currently used in the 550EXR?
« Reply #17 on: 30 Jan 2006, 05:26 pm »
Quote from: skrivis
Quote from: ricmon
I got a pair of siemens tri maica 12at7wa/ecc81's  for the 550 from http://www.tubeworld.com and a pair of Telfunkens from a AC member and a pair of RCA 12ax7/ecc83's for the phone section from the tubedepot.com.  I'm not a tube roller but changing the tubes worked for me.


I just realized that you had mentioned the 550. I thought we were talking about preamps.

You might want to send the amp back to AVA so they can adjust it for the new tubes. Frank has stated several times here ...


The tubes in the amp are the same spec as the orginal.  Just a different manufacture.  As such there should be no problem with the bisaing.  However I will defer to Mr. VanNastine on this issue.  That is if a tube comes from a different maufacture but all other things being equal is there a need to rebias the amp?

avahifi

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Which tubes (and how many) are currently used in the 550EXR?
« Reply #18 on: 30 Jan 2006, 08:48 pm »
Answer regarding biasing adjustments when channging tubes is:  maybe.

We do see the need to do this when changing tube brands here.  It is not a end user easy do it yourself project.  You need an ammeter and the ability to access the small trimpots on each audio board without zapping yourself or the amplifier (300V or so DC floating around there, really nasty if you slip).

Frank Van Alstine

ricmon

Which tubes (and how many) are currently used in the 550EXR?
« Reply #19 on: 31 Jan 2006, 03:34 pm »
Quote from: avahifi
Answer regarding biasing adjustments when channging tubes is:  maybe.

We do see the need to do this when changing tube brands here.  It is not a end user easy do it yourself project.  You need an ammeter and the ability to access the small trimpots on each audio board without zapping yourself or the amplifier (300V or so DC floating around there, really nasty if you slip).

Frank Van Alstine


So if the tube specs are the same but from a different manufacuture how is one to determind if they are having a advers affect on the amp's cuircutry?  Are we stuck using only one brand of tube?