oil for thorens t.t.

Keith F. · « **on:** 23 Jan 2006, 01:23 am »

Hi All,

I need some advice on what type of oil to use for my turntable spindle bearing. Iv'e been doing some work on a thorens td 318 mk3. The deck is about 9 yrs. old and I heard of one using moble 1 all synthetic for the platter bearings. I bought some, completely cleaned out the sleeve well and shaft then added this oil. I could already tell the lubrication of the moble 1 wasn't as good as the original, could feel and hear the metal rubbing where with the original oil, it was completely smooth. I thought it was then time to do a search on the web and found differing opinions. One guy put in 'TUF' brand in his VPI HW-19 and said after spinning platter, he came back minutes later and it was still spinning! It supposedly has moly, or grafite or some other additives. I came on another site where a guy said some sleeve bearings are actually porous so the oil can 'bleed' through it so as to always have oil 'flowing' around and that oils with particulate additives can actually clog up the bearing pores.

I would think if a platter spins for minutes then that is good - the less friction, the less noise.

DO ANY OF YOU KNOW WHAT TYPE OF BEARINGS THESE THORENS T.T's
HAVE, AND WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #1 on:** 23 Jan 2006, 05:52 pm »

Keith,

I had a Thorens TD-316 for over 15 years.....the best tweek thing I did for it was Tufoil in the platter bearing well. It was spooky how much less clatter he platter made after that. I didn't use a stethescope, my ear could tell it was considerably less. The results were terrifc with music...it was a lot quieter overall. And, probably, better constant speed....I did not have a strobe to see if that was true, tho.

The next best tweek was keeping it level, via a bubble spirit. Belt drivers need to be absolutely level to perform right...good direct drivers don't seem to benefit as much in that regard. Of course, any TT sounds improves by proper cartrdige mounting and azimuth and VTA adjustments.

I didn't know I could back then (nor did I look for it on the Thorens), but I squirted the Tufoil (I think it's about $16 from the manufacturer in NJ if you can't find in independent auto parts places) on my tonearm bearing with my direct drive JVC that I own now and the benefit was equal to the that of the bearing well so many years ago. Very spookky good.

It's really amazing stuff - I do NOT know the long term effects of it on your platter bearing, however.

I have run 4 cars, some 300,000 miles on it without issue in the crankcase. I noted no power benefits, perhaps a small change (1-3%) in mileage, but a dramatic change in engine heat (as read by the dashboard guage) in all cars within the first drive of the application. So, it apparently offers up far less friction that ordinary non-synthetic engine oil.....and I would think even less than Mobil 1.

Plenty of info (non-audio related, of course) on the web

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #2 on:** 23 Jan 2006, 05:55 pm »

Oh, and Tufoil I don't believe contains moly or graphite, it is a highly refined type of teflon and it is reported to be the worlds most slippery substance. According to Guiness Book of Records - prominently smattered on Tufoil's site.

Good luck - let me know your results if you try it out.

Keith F. · « **Reply #3 on:** 24 Jan 2006, 12:12 am »

Hi ChairGuy,

Thanks for the info on this, I will get some Tufoil and report back on results.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #4 on:** 24 Jan 2006, 01:54 am »

Quote from: Keith F.

Hi ChairGuy,

Thanks for the info on this, I will get some Tufoil and report back on results.

Keith,

Please do - I've told a couple folks about it, but I never heard their impressions of it. For me, it was a spooky good upgrade on the std. Thorens oil. I never thought the TD-316 bearings were very good...until adding the Tufoil.

Maybe the Mark III versions were better from the start in that regard. The difference in the TD-316 and TD-318 in the Thorens line is only the nifty auto-return feature of the TD-318's (Mark I, II or III)

Do report back

alpha_03 · « **Reply #5 on:** 24 Jan 2006, 02:55 am »

Howdy

Chair guy, the 318 isnt an auto return TT, as you know I have one.

Sorry didnt mean to intrude, just thought I would post this small correction.

BTW, Moly Cote (white lube) works very well, it's an assembly lube for HP engines that I use, and it has no electrical abilities and it doesnt melt below 130F or run away like oils do.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #6 on:** 24 Jan 2006, 03:20 am »

Quote from: alpha_03

Howdy

Chair guy, the 318 isnt an auto return TT, as you know I have one.

Sorry didnt mean to intrude, just thought I would post this small correction.

BTW, Moly Cote (white lube) works very well, it's an assembly lube for HP engines that I use, and it has no electrical abilities and it doesnt melt below 130F or run away like oils do.

Oops, I stand corrected, sorry fella's. What's the main difference(s) between the 316 and 318 then? Different arm, heavier platter - anything else?

Maybe it's the 320 that was auto-return?

gitarretyp · « **Reply #7 on:** 24 Jan 2006, 03:23 am »

The 318 has auto-lift. Not sure what else is different. More than you ever wanted to know about thorens

alpha_03 · « **Reply #8 on:** 24 Jan 2006, 03:41 am »

The 316 didnt have auto stop, nor auto lift. that is the only difference.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #9 on:** 24 Jan 2006, 04:54 am »

Quote from: gitarretyp

The 318 has auto-lift. Not sure what else is different. More than you ever wanted to know about thorens

Ahhh, auto lift...not auto return. The difference is slight as one is mostly concerned with excessive needle wear...the TT doesn't use much electricity.

I thought that was the only difference. Back in 1988 or so when I bought my 316 for $300.00, the 318 was like $100 more for only that feature. I was more attentive to things then...so I pocketed the $100.00 and bought the 316. $100.00 really mattered to a guy paying off college loans back then.

I think the 320 was a little higher standard...and the 321 was the 320, but came armless. They are the toughest to find and most coveted, I understand, of the 300 series. I noticed Thorens is now making a 350 model, in homage to the older 300 series with suspension and all.

Keith F. · « **Reply #10 on:** 28 Jan 2006, 09:38 pm »

Hi ChairGuy,

Well, there isn't any store in this town that carries Tufoil, so I ordered some from the manufacturer. Hopefully, it will be here early next week.

Yeah, the 318 mk111 has auto stop and lift at end of record. How it works is, when cuing lever is all the way over, there is an electromagnet that engages to hold the cuing down. At the end of the record, an optic sensor is triggered (sensor is underneath turntable) and this shuts off electromagnet, which also lifts tonearm quite abruptly which seems sort of crude but I don't think it hurts stylus. I would rather it would have some sort of slower rising mechanism which I have seen on some t.t.'s years ago.

What is neat, though, is that the plastic alignment gauge that came with the Thorens for setting overhang, etc. seems to be good.

I bought a DB Systems protractor because I've heard it mentioned by some that alot of manufactures include wrong alignment schemes and or guages with their turntables, but when I checked the alignment with the protractor, it was dead-on!

Anyway, this is no VPI turntable, but I do want to get it running as good as possible. Also, I will make sure it's level, as You advised.

One question I do have for You is: Did You clean out all the old oil first before applying Tufoil, or did You just add the Tufoil to what was there in the first place? Was wondering if it should be in addition to existing oil or if It's better for Tufoil to be by itself?

regards,
keith

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #11 on:** 3 Feb 2006, 04:08 am »

Sorry Keith, missed this post and question from earlier this week.

Yup, I cleaned the bearing well of old oil (with a non-shedding QTip from Radio Shack.) I always keep a few around for electronic uses.

It might well work fine with existing oil if you don't want to go thru hassle of it...it's only a 3 minute job as I remember it. Note how many times your platter spins now.....versus the amount of rotations it makes after you apply Tufoil. The difference, and there should be significant, is the friction is it reducing. The upgrade is very audible - you'll soon hopefully not find need to spend $$$ for that VPI - the 300 series is pretty dang good when tweeked up right.

I sold my TD-316 to a Thorens collector in PA...and my old TD-316 is his choice to use most of the time. I attribute a lot of that to the use of Tufoil (tonearm wrap is pretty helpful, too). Do level it too...all belt drivers need this to be absolutely perfect at every angle to shine - level it with a record on the platter/matt, nearest to the spindle (some purpose built TT levels actually fit over the spindle, the best place to do it - I think KABUSA's do) for closest approximation.

Let me/us know your results...as mentioned, it was literally hair raising in both bearing well on my prior Thorens belt driver and greasing the main tonearm bearing on my current JVC direct driver.

Keith F. · « **Reply #12 on:** 9 Feb 2006, 01:06 am »

Hello ChairGuy and all,

Got the Tufoil and put it in the platter bearing and WOW! this stuff really is 'slick'!

Before I had learned about the Tufoil, though, I had applied silicon oil to the arm pivots and lateral bearings and didn't listen to the turntable(except through small workshop system), until applying Tufoil to platter bearing and I'm completely blown away!

So, between the Tufoil in the platter bearing and silicon to arm bearings, the music has been elevated to a whole new level.

Played some very familiar records. For instance, The acoustic bass on Wes Montgomerey 'Bumpin' is so much clearer now.

Everything is clearer as well as the 'faults' on the recordings!

Will still have to 'play with' tracking force, antiskating a bit.

Wanted to let You know that in these first listenings, it's very obviously more musical now.

I wished I had done one thing at a time to note the individual improvements.

I'm very greatful to You for the tips!

Keith

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #13 on:** 9 Feb 2006, 03:43 am »

Keith,

I don't have a stethescope...but it was soooo obvious that the Tufoil reduces rumble considerably by just having my ear next to the platter while it spun.

Unhook your belt from our platter....and spin it by hand hard. If you have your deck absolutely level with a spirit bubble level, with Tufoil in the bearing well it will spin and spin and spin and spin and spin....it's reduced friction you are literally seeing. That translates into lower noise floor and better performance. All for, what, $16 delivered nowadays?

Where did you find / get 1000 cst silicone oil may I ask (per Frank van Alstine's gracious tip)? I did a little search and turned up nothing. Or, did you use something else?

The two tweeks together must be fantastic there...I didn't know about the arm pivot and bearings back then in my Thorens ownership days...and was blown away with just the Tufoil. I used Tufoil on my current DD table, and the experience was likewise hair-raising.

Cheers, and good job, my man!