[Dan Kolton]

Hugh,

Are you saying that an improved power supply would enable one to distinguish between power amps (assuming that none of these amps were misbehaving)?

[AKSA]

Dan,

This question is difficult.  I must agree that telling one amp from another with the existing ASP/power supply is tricky, and with a stock Orion I agree with SL.  I can think of no other reason for this than the PS, but for a more definitive answer I'd ask PT914 and Aurelius who both appear early in this thread).  They own Orions and have made power supply changes - my design, I must admit a vested interest - but their assessment is more objective than mine.  Suffice to say the PS changes brought much more engagement to the presentation, an almost organic touch which enabled you to get into the music much more.

[Aside:  Doubtless we will have a visit from the trenchant naysayers, but unless they have heard the power supply and done the AB I suggest their comments are unreferenced and invalid.]

Cheers,

Hugh

[Davey]

As usual in the subjective world of audio....unless you have personally auditioned something you have zero credibility to comment.    Very convenient.

Hugh,
 
How about fabricating a demo unit that can be shipped around to various Orion owners for audition?  The large, filter capacitor removal would be the only issue, correct?

I don't think you're going to get many Orion owners who will shell out a few hundred bucks for a secret ingredient power supply unless they've auditioned it first or know quite a bit more about the technical design.  If the PS is as good as you say the orders will come rolling in after a demo.

Davey.

[AKSA]

Hi Davey,

Nice of you to drop in!!  You sagely wrote:

As usual in the subjective world of audio....unless you have personally auditioned something you have zero credibility to comment.    Very convenient.

But this applies to you!!     You have commented on my supply - very unfavorably in the Orion group in fact - AND YOU HAVE NOT HEARD IT, KNOW NOTHING ABOUT IT.

I'm actually quite surprised.  Why would a stellar intellect like you even worry about such a piddling product from the other side of the planet?

I will back my claims by AB demonstration at the RMAF.  I hold no hopes of seeing you there, but if I do, I will treat you with some courtesy.

I would suggest to you that this product is way out of your price range, Davey.  To you it's clearly snake oil, clearly much above the parts cost, why would a smart guy like you be interested - even to the point of heaping derision on something which is, in your obvious view, patently ill-considered?  After all, you have the expertise, why don't you do a superior supply yourself?  It is even conceivable it would be a good design!!  By your own admission, you are certainly clever enough!   

Back to your UG, Davey, there's a nice chap!!   

Cheers,

Hugh

[Builder Brad]

Hugh,

Thank-you for the answers. I am now seriously considering upgrading the N+ to the Lifeforce and then trying those Seas tweeters out with a Parallel and series connection to see what sounds best. This will be relatively easy to test as I do have 2 sets of Orions ASPs.

If you do decide to offer "Demo" ASP power supplies I would be happy to compare the original SL recomended switching PS and alos my own DIY PS. Would you consider sending the "Demo" at the same time as the Lifeforce to keep shipping costs ect. To a minimum?

PSP,

I think I will go down the Series connected route for now. The Seas drivers should be here by the end of the week and I have made up the rear baffle parts already.

Brad

[andyr]

Hugh,

If you do decide to offer "Demo" ASP power supplies I would be happy to compare the original SL recomended switching PS and alos my own DIY PS. Would you consider sending the "Demo" at the same time as the Lifeforce to keep shipping costs ect. To a minimum?

Brad

Brad, WTF do you think Hugh will (or is in a position to) offer demo ASP PSes to every Orion owner?     I suggest you are just naive in the extreme ... it's just not a cost-effective thing for him to do.     Does Siegfried offer to ship a pair of ready-made Orions to anybody who's considering buying one?  NO!

You know how good his amps are ... FCS just trust that his ASP PS is in the same class!!     That's not such a big leap of faith ... there are other people here who have already bought and listened to it - and have posted that it is better (ie. it makes the ASP sound better) than the original SL PS!

Look, let's just go back to SL's web-site for a minute ... to where he says (I'm paraphrasing) "the multichannel amp I recommend is all you need ... there's absolutely no need to buy better amps because my ASP is already so good, these (better) amps are wasted".

Yet I think people here have commented how good the N+ upgrade sounds, over the standard AKSA, with their Orions.  I'd also suggest there are Orion owners who've tried LFs and heard the difference (but I'm not certain of this).  Siegfried is just indulging in a bit of "ostrich behaviour" (some crueller people than I would say arrogance!  ) in saying that better amps won't improve an Orion.  To me it's an open-and-shut case ... the better the speaker, the more it will reveal diffferences in the rest of the sound chain.

It's only "average" speakers that can't distinguish between different components in the sound chain!

Regards,

Andy

[AKSA]

Brad,

Yes, series connection for the moment, but email me privately to discuss the tech aspects.

Andy,

Brad is allowed to ask!!

You are right that remote auditioning is not viable for me, the better option is to get a review.  On that score I have a few ideas;  I can see the only way to clear this up is to buy you three coffees, eat a vienna slice and test my sugar levels!!

Thank you both for your posts,

Cheers,

Hugh

[andyr]

Andy,

Brad is allowed to ask!!

You are right that remote auditioning is not viable for me, the better option is to get a review.  On that score I have a few ideas;  I can see the only way to clear this up is to buy you three coffees, eat a vienna slice and test my sugar levels!!

Thank you both for your posts,

Cheers,

Hugh

Hi Hugh,

Yes, I guess even at my age, I still haven't learnt that simple fact ... if ya ask for a f*&k, you're more likely to get one than if you don't!!   

Well, we're back in chez Redwood and, although there's still over 40 boxes to be unpacked (including all my LPs!!  ), I am able to take a kafe.  I'll email youse right now.   

Regards,

Andy

[Builder Brad]

Andy,

I was only asking, besides Hugh can afford it, given the HUGE profits made at Aspen - sugar and roasted beans are his only significant costs. Plus the demo/auditioning option is nothing new here, look at the top of this Forum and see the sticky threads about an AKSA100 that is better traveled that most of us.

That request was a little toungue in cheek and directed at Hugh, who I know would have taken it in the intended spirit, given the fact that I have previously purchased some of his kit. The reality is that I would probably want to keep the said PS if it improved over what I already used.

Hugh,

I will PM if this suits you, although it may be worth listing any extra work needed to run those series tweeters on this thread.

Brad

[PSP]

Davey, et. al.,
When I bought my first 55w AKSA amp, now long ago, it was an act of faith based on the posted listening impressions of many, many people.  Across numerous audio boards, the ratio of (I'm in love with this amp)/(What's the big deal?) was very, very high.  Also, if you read the many reports a consistent picture emerged:  clarity, guts, makes you want to listen to music, and an emotional attachment to the product that is rare.  I decided to buy, and it turned out to be an extremely good decision.  When I listen to my system, then go back and read Hugh's advertising copy, I think he's accurately describing what I hear from my system.

As Hugh announced upgrades to the 55, introduced the 100, then the Tube Line Preamp and GK-1 preamps, he often promised the moon and (IMO) delivered the moon and a planet or two.  In every case when I have purchased an upgrade or a preamp the actual product has overdelivered compared to Hugh's description of the upgrade/product.  If I expected an improvement of "7", so far I have never recieved less than "9". 

Hugh says that his first serious forray into power supply design occured in the work leading up to the GK-1 preamp.  A good friend of mine, who listens to a lot of gear, tells me that the GK-1 is the best preamp he's ever heard, period.  Hugh has said many times that the power supply is a critical element of that design and that his thinking has evolved a great deal since the GK-1.  Ergo, if the man (along with a couple of Orion owners) says that his power supply takes the ASP a step or two in the right direction, I'm inclined to believe him.  If the power supply doesn't do squat (or worse, sacrifices accuracy), then in my experience it will be the first time that Hugh has failed to deliver. 

I also have two sets of ASP boards under construction.  Eventually one set of ASP boards will be fed from the GK-1 sub out to drive the Orion bass, the other set of ASP boards will be fed from the normal GK-1 output to drive midrange and tweeters. 

But before I do that, I will rig one set of ASP boards to be driven by the stock Elpac power supply, the other set of ASP boards (minus the on-board filter caps, ferrite beads, etc.) will be driven by Hugh's power supply.  By switching interconnects from one set of ASP RCA outputs to the other, I will be able to feed the Orions with either the stock power supply or with Hugh's power supply.  When I get it running, I will be happy to invite people over for a listen (I live in Minneapolis) so you can form your own opinion.  As I think about my room layout, I should even be able to do this testing blind, in a way that the listeners can't know which power supply they are listening to.

We all worry about audio snake oil, but in order to have snake oil you first need a snake.  That ain't Hugh Dean, I'll promise you.

best regards,
Peter

[ctviggen]

As an EE, I'm not sure I understand or can articulate why DC power supplies make a difference.  However, power supplies for the SqueezeBox and the ASP for the Orions do seem to make a difference.

[Davey]

Peter, et. al.,

Yep, I understand the situation here.

I'm skeptical of Hugh's designs...which is probably obvious...but the suggestion of a demo unit (no, not multiple units for every Orion owner Andy..please read more carefully) is totally serious.  If you've read the posts at the OUG you know that many of my fellow Orions owners are open-minded and would be totally up for the comparison and willing to part with their money if the design is sound, and sounds good.  What possible downside would come from this unless the PS doesn't perform to the hype?  Is Hugh trying to sell products or not?  Demo'ing of products is not unusual in the weird world of high-end audio.

Andy,

After all the conversations we've had about active crossovers I'm surprised you're so one-way on this.  You seem(ed) like a smart fellow who was willing to learn and embrace some new ways of doing things.

Hugh,

Thank you very much for the condescending reply.  It's pretty much what I expected.  However, the challenge remains.  Why not build a single demo unit and send it around to various Orion owners and let's have a listen?  I will NOT be one of the auditioners if you so choose.

You're correct that I have not heard and know nothing about it.  It's your fault we don't know anything about it.    And the demo suggestion was to remedy the auditioning aspect.

Also, you have no idea what's in or out of my price range.  In fact, I will actually purchase the demo unit (right now!) with my own funds and let my fellow Orion owners do the auditioning.  You can ship it not to me, but to the first Orion owner that would like to audition it.

Also, to Brad.  The recommended SL supply for the Orion ASP boards is definitely NOT a switching unit.

Cheers,

Davey.

[Builder Brad]

Davey,

The original supply that was recommended by SL for EU customers back in 2002 when I built my Orions was definately a switching supply - Elpac WR12731.

you have previously acknowleged this in the past, and have taken the time to provide helpfull advice and sugestions, some of which brought me here - Ultimately I built PS based on the Jung Topology.

Brad,

I think if I were you I'd acquire an Elpac supply with linear regulators for cheap and be done with it....and then go listen to music.  Something like the WM220-1:

http://www.elpac.com/uploads/documents/datasheets/wmpage34and35.pdf


However, I sense you're wanting to splurge and really pull out all the stops.    I would use something based on the Sulzer/Borbely/Jung/Didden efforts that use pre-regulators to feed a following series regulator.  The more recent designs are labeled "Super-Regulators" and various other names, but if you Google on this you'll come up with a variety of different/simpler users designs that should be acceptable.

http://tangentsoft.net/elec/misc/diy-series-linregs.pdf

If you had some ground loop hum that may be an indication of some other wiring/connection problem rather than a problem with the Elliot power supply itself.

For my own Orion crossover I use a couple of little el-cheapo TDK switcher supplies that I picked up for a couple of bucks.  I know the guys here like Paul would roll their eyes at that, but they work okay.

Bob is correct.  There are many threads at DIYaudio related to supplies like these.

Cheers,

Davey.

As far as I am concerned this forum is about contribution and moving forward as a community, from my own experience you have assisted me in the past and I know that many of your posts have been construcive in every sense, however if does seem like you really are trying to prove something here.

Looking at some of the things you have said about Hughs PS I can totally understand why he may have replied to one of your earlier posts in that way - you deserved it! ...and if you are totally  honest with yourself you expected no less, otherwise you would not have even bothered to post in the first place.

Please, for the sake of this thread and all of the individuals with an interest in all things Orion, admitedly with an unashamed bias towards the AKSA "Brand" lets leave it there before Hugh locks this thread.

Brad

[Dan Kolton]

Hugh,

I sent PT914 a PM back on Jan.7 with some questions, but he's apparently never read it.  I've not tried Aurelius, but may when I've time.  I have read each of their posts earlier in the thread.  At the moment, I'm more interested in adding the rear firing tweeters.  Let me know if you take up Davey's challenge.  I'd love to hear a demo of your PS.  If you ever figure out what you think causes the improvement, I'd be very interested in knowing that as well.

[Davey]

Sorry Brad, you are correct.  My mistake.  I was thinking US customers only and forgot that there was a different recommendation for the EU end of things.  I guess that was an availability thing at the time?

Anyways, I understand your criticism of me....partially.  But, let's leave me out of it for the time being.  I am offering Hugh an opportunity here.  He can sell a half dozen units to Orion owners who are willing to take a leap of faith or possibly 100 units if his demo unit makes a good showing.  I am willing to fund the demo unit myself and leave myself totally out of the loop....or anything to prove.  My motivation is entirely for the Orion community.  If there's a valid improvement that can be made to the ASP part of the equation then they should have the chance to sample and decide for themselves.

I'm not sure why we should "leave it there before Hugh locks the thread."  The title of this thread is "SL Orion XO and Power Supply Mods....."  That's exactly what we're talking about here.  Why would Hugh lock the thread? 

Cheers,

Davey.

[AKSA]

Hi Dan,

Tell you what - I will email Philip, ask him if he would reply to you.  I'm sorry this is tricky, without formal advertising it's hard for people to get to know my products, just as Davey says.  Failing that, I'm sure we can come to an arrangement which does not disadvantage you financially.

Cheers,

Hugh

[AKSA]

Hi Brad,

This is a storm in a thimble - I certainly won't be locking this thread!!

Thanks for your post, appreciate the sentiments,

Hugh

[andyr]

Andy,

You seem like a smart fellow who is willing to learn and embrace some new ways of doing things.

Cheers,

Davey.

Hi Davey,

I couldn't have expressed it better myself!  

I have certainly appreciated the conversations we've had over the past few years on active XOs ... you have definitely assisted me to get to the sublime musical position I currently have (well, will have shortly again, when my bloody electrician finishes doing his work!!   ).

However, I'm a bit bemused as to why you think I'm "so one-eyed on this"!    IMO it's quite simple: the better the speaker, the more it will reveal differences in the rest of the sound chain - amps, cables, cartridges, phono stages etc etc. ... so claims by Siegfried (much as I admire the guy for his intellect) that amps don't make any difference to an Orion ... or by Orion owners that an Aussie PS can't possibly make the ASP sound better ... are ludicrous.  

I simply thought your and Brad's request for a demo was a bit cheeky and AFAIAC, people who aren't prepared to take a leap of faith to buy something after reading positive reviews deserve not to have the benefit they would've got, if they had faith.

Your subsequent explanation of what you had in mind re. the demo unit for Orion owners makes it a much more attractive prospect (since you're prepared to put some skin in it), so I hope Hugh is able to take you up on it.  That way many people will benefit ... you and other Orion owners from having better sounding speakers ... and Hugh from getting 100s of orders for his ASP PS!!  

Regards,

Andy

PS: I use a prototype version of Hugh's PS to power my Rod Elliott actives.

[AKSA]

HI Davey,

Ah, the people you meet in forums!!  Thank you for your post, you reveal yourself as bona fide by offering your money up front as you did, please check your PMs.  But first, an explanation.

You're correct that I have not heard and know nothing about it.  It's your fault we don't know anything about it.    And the demo suggestion was to remedy the auditioning aspect.

I'm no marketer, not much of a businessman.  I'm not interested in bulk sales and never have been. Like most compulsive-obsessives, I work alone, I'm driven by intellectual challenge, and my throughput is limited.  Whatever my reasons (and they are no more known to you than your bank account is to me) it's not my 'fault' that people who might be interested in my products cannot find the technical and review detail.  Actually, with the help of Paul Kaplan, aka Occam, we did an AKSA100N+ US tour a couple years back.  Sales results, despite great reviews, were very ordinary, and I doubt I'll go there again because the logistics were very time consuming.  I'll be trying the RMAF next, with David Ellis.  These days, most of my time is spent developing new products and servicing my established customers;  it keeps me very busy, so exhortations to expand are, well, ineffective.

As for scepticism, I've seen this with lots of highly qualified people, including SL, who dismissed my approach peremptorily and yet chose to post my praise of his Orion on this website.  I find it tiresome that in the conventional lore of power supplies there is little wiggle room for a new approach, and for purely commercial reasons I won't be revealing the technical details.  As a general rule, I find technocrats are interested only in the sound, but audiophiles are crazy about the music.  It's this latter group I work with, as they buy my products!

I apologise if my post seemed condescending.  That was not quite my intent;  I wanted it merely to be rude.  Having now said my piece, henceforth I shall be more courteous.

A few pointers might help.  All conventional power supplies are based on voltage control, with the Jung/Sulzer/Didden approach based around feedback to confer very tight voltage tolerances.  I have found this is flawed for similar reasons that feedback is roundly condemned in amplification;  overshoot, creation of high order artefacts, TIM.  I use a current drive approach with a pre-regulator.  Recently I completed a supply for the Squeezebox, and the results are quite promising.

Also, you have no idea what's in or out of my price range.  In fact, I will actually purchase the demo unit (right now!) with my own funds and let my fellow Orion owners do the auditioning.  You can ship it not to me, but to the first Orion owner that would like to audition it.

David (that is your given name??), this is impressive, and I doffs me cap.  You are much more than a trenchant naysayer, you are genuinely curious!!  Check your PM......

Andy, thank you for your post, see you Thursday!

Cheers,

Hugh

[andyr]

As an EE, I'm not sure I understand or can articulate why DC power supplies make a difference.  However, power supplies for the SqueezeBox and the ASP for the Orions do seem to make a difference.

Mmmm, what is it about EEs that they can't accept something until they "see the science"??    Wasn't it EEs who came up with the concept of digitising sound ... which would make it much better than analogue LPs ... which 25 years on we now see is a classic case of misguided theory!  

In terms of "why DC power supplies make a difference" ... can I suggest you research the Naim philosophy.  Over 20 years ago they came out with the concept of massive external PSes for their preamps (instead of just powering them from the power amp's PS).  You can in fact spend more on a Naim PS than on the preamp which it powers!  So, yes!  DC power supplies make a difference to the sound ... just like the sort of wire you use, its direction and a whole heap of other hard-to-scientifically-justify factors.

Regards,

Andy