[michaelv]

Hi,
 I read in forum to forum and some people say pre-amp plays important role in tight bass, huge dynamic  and some people say power does this job. I am really confused about this . What about integrated amp?  So , i post here and hope that someone can help me to clarify this. Sorry to ask a naive question...

michael.

[Carlman]

I don't think it's possible to pinpoint specific (and subjective) types of sound to a piece of gear in a generic and consistent manner.

Within context of a specific system, it is possible to identify what causes variations by adding and removing gear.

The only thing I can generically say in my experience about amps and preamps is that they can limit each other in either dynamics or frequency extension.

[alpha_03]

Howdy,

My take on your question is that the pre-amp is the second most important factor, source players (CD, Phono, ect.) are far more important. Why? For the simple reason that amplifiers only reproduce what they are given (good ones any way) this includes pre-amps, however, here is where gain and sonic quality comes in to play- it becomes a name game after you find the sound YOU like.

But most of all dont forget speakers, to me they are the MOST important factor there is in any audio path. Here is where the music lovers greatest challenge lies , and most probly, will always be such.

A really good speaker can make really bad audio gear sound good, and, just the opposite can be said to be true as well, however, electronics are much more forgiving then speakers ever will be.

[warnerwh]

Speakers then the room acoustics should be your first concerns. After they are done a preamp would be your best bet.  Most preamps and amps are very good these days.

Do not worry about not being knowledgeable. None of us were born with this knowledge. If you take my thirty plus years of advice I can assure you that your system will sound better for less money.

Most SS amps and preamps are very good these days.  If you think you're going to buy a better amp or preamp and get much better bass you're mostly wrong unless you're using very low end gear.  It does matter but the sound improvement will not be that obvious as will room treatment.

Forgive me if I made the assumption that your acoustics have not been addressed. I'm only guessing due to the nature of the question.  If you have a bass problem bass traps either commercial or diy are you best bet. Best of luck to you.

[michaelv]

Thank you all for you precious opinions.

Actually, i have bass traps in all 4 corners and first reflection point acoustic panel. So I would say that my room is pretty much treated. The bass is good  and my speakers are Totem Forrest. However, the gears i have are rotel as you can see at my signature. I'm pretty happy with the sound i have right now.  The thing is i  just wanna to see if i can get the most out of my 2-channel system. If electronics can make the sound different ( better, i mean) like day and night to current gears i have , i would love to invest into it. However,  like i mention at the question, i am  in the twilight zone ...

I think if i decide to change the electronic, i would have to change the whole chain from cd player down to the amp?  Another concern that if i use different  pre-amp brand and paired with my Rotel amp, would the sound be messed up? Or do i need to have to be in the same brand? Please bear with me if the question been asked before., but i just wanna mention here as they're all related.

One more thing, when i play at low volumn, the bass is weak but tight, but when i crank up the volume , let say  10 or 11 o'clock, the bass is really clear and loud and of course, tight.   Do you see this is normal?

thanks again

[alpha_03]

Sure its normal on less efficient, smaller speakers (as you have).

Do yourself a favor, try a better source player, YBA has a less expensive line called Audio Refinement, I own both a YBA and an Audio Refinment CDP, both are very good, and made the biggest improvement in my system in many years of trying out different equipment from mega expansive/expensive to average range of gear.

If you have good speakers and are happy with the amount of output you have, start at the source player(s), you'll save money and head aches in the long run, and you might find that it is all about the source and the speakers after all.

And BTW, no - you can mix and match as your ears see fit.  

[JLM]

I have a Rotel stereo A/V receiver (is that a weird one or not?).

IMO it is a workhorse, not a thoroughbred.  What I mean by that is that it is well built and I'm sure passes bench testing with flying colors, but the sound is dull (lacks detail, dynamics, and clarity) compared to any of the 10 other tube, chip, and digital amps I've auditioned with my speakers in the past 1.5 years.  Rotel is a first step above big box stuff.

I've never understood why there is a market for low efficiency speakers.  High efficiency are more dynamic and open the door to wonderful small amps, but typically color the sound.  OTOH low efficiency just require more power and still have limited dynamics.

I agree, after speakers and room, the source plays the biggest factor in sound quality.  If you're computer savy at all, try a Squeeze Box as your two primary sources (internet audio streaming and ripped CDs).  $300 stock, $500 start the mods.

BTW IMO the amp is the big factor in tight bass and as it must interact with active loads (the speakers) it plays the bigger role in sound quality.  Besides in simple systems (like with the Squeeze Box) you don't even need a pre-amp.

[alpha_03]

JLM, is there a vinyl offering in that previous posting? if so I would love to "burn" some of my old records to disc at HQ. let me know, would ya please.

BTW, I agree, SPL is king where only efficientcy is concerned, but, you will have to admitt there is a subtle balance / layer that often times lower output speakers gain with supreme accuracy over their more racey counterparts, that is, as long as both speakers are feed "good" power and equal source material.

[Carlman]

While I'm glad you appreciate the precious comments, I'm not sure what you're actually learning from this discussion.  No one knows your definition of "tight bass" or "huge dynamic".  To say that an amp is more likely going to give "tight bass" over the addition of a preamp is like saying a adding new tire on your bike will make your ride tighter than adding a new seat.

I would recommend joining a local hi-fi club or going to some stores to experience what's out there first-hand.  Then, if it doesn't sound better than what you have, you're done!  Or, you can see and learn more about what causes those differences.  

I don't know if you'll hear 'night and day' differences in audio because 'night and day' to me is likely different than it is to you... or anyone else...

Ok, back to the futility..

[GHM]

All are important IMHO. The speakers and the source are first. Room if your room is giving you major problems. Man I'm glad my room has never been that big of a problem. The way some talk about their rooms..wow must be an acoustical nightmare.

The preamp is also VERY important as it allows the source to work without strain. It is an additional component but a necessary one if you want to get the most out of the source.Without it most sources will sound a little thin by comparison. I've tried the non-linestage setups several times....I have always come back to them. You never know what your missing until you hear it.

The amplifier is just as important because without it you'll never hear what your speakers are capable of.


If you want to add additional weight at lower volumes .You'll need a sealed subwoofer. You can mix and match brands all day long. Just make sure the input and output impedances are matched properly.

Carlman has a good point. It takes time to develope an ear for the gear.
The more you sample the better it will get. Also it depends on the types of music you listen to. If it's already badly compressed ..hearing differences won't be easy. If you listen to very well recorded music, you'll hear the differences in gear swaps almost immediately.

[michaelv]

One of my friends has arcam 192 CD player. He has Denon a/v receiver, and  polk lsi15 speaker. The sound is good, but when he replaces denon with arcam pre/pro and rotel rb-1075 (multi channel amp), the bass is awesome. That's why i came up with the idea that pre-amp plays ideal role in the system.

[maxwalrath]

It definitely does. Every piece can have an impact on the sound. See if you can try some gear you might be interested in in your system.

The bass improvement I got changing cd players recently was more noticable than an amp switch.

[bunky]

It definitely does. Every piece can have an impact on the sound. See if you can try some gear you might be interested in in your system.

The bass improvement I got changing cd players recently was more noticable than an amp switch.

i have noticed changes in bass performance after switching poweramplifiers, preamplifiers, loudspeakers and CD players. and with a tubed preamplifier tube selection is also a big factor. i am also inclined to believe that everything matters including cables. thanks....WCW III

[JLM]

alpha_03,

I lost vinyl capablities 20 some years ago when the nice turntable got dropped while moving equipment.     In fact I still have a hand full of vinyl just sitting and waiting to be transferred that I haven't been able to find copies of.  I just moved to a Squeeze Box and ripping CDs to my hard drive.


michaelv,

Generally the component that has the "toughest" job to do will play the biggest factor in what you hear.  IMO thats the speakers as they change energy from one form to another (electrical to mechanical) and must interact with the room.  The room would get my vote for number two if you consider it as being a big (unknown) speaker cabinet that the drivers must relate too just like they do inside the speaker cabinet itself.  Along these same lines the source would be number 3 as it converts digital signal to analog or mechanical energy to electrical.

OTOH there's the whole world of synergy (how well each piece "gets along" with the others).  This can become a real rats nest very quickly.  Not only are there the black and white issues such as sensitivities and impedance matching, but all the subjective issues like imaging or pace.  Often the strength of one component compensates for the weakness of another.  While I'm a "speaker guy" I've heard a $4,000 pre/power amp make a $5 speaker sound incredibly "decent".  (Of course you can do incredibly "decent" for way less using some disgression.)

In an effort to avoid the subjective synergy pitfalls some (especially manufacturers and salesman) suggest staying with the same brand.  This is safe, but results in buying into the house sound (their idea of sonic bliss).  If you agree with their idea, great!  But it's hard enough to build the best of any single component, let alone the best of all components.

I always recommend audiophiles use live, unamplified music as their training ground and as the only true benchmark.  Anything else is filtered through universally crummy monitors and artificial mixing/blending.  Then do the research and find a local audiophile group.

[michaelv]

Last night, I tried to move speakers around  to see if the sound was better or worst.  I could hear the bass a bit loud and clean. I even removed 2 bass traps in the backwall corners, but it didn't take effect  with or withour bass traps.

Now i realize that playing with speaker placement is also important. Also, the way CD is recorded important too. I try different CDs such as Enigma and Diana Krall . The bass is better than the old CDs i have.

One thing i notice that if i stand up in the corner of the room, the bass is loudest , but a bit boomy . I guess bass energy is collected in the corner the most .  Maybe, i should raise speaker a bit higher from listening position . The Forrest is about 37" from the ground.  Should i raise it  to 40"  a bit above ear level? Well, i will try tonight and post the result.  The Forrest is light and it's not stable on the carpet. I would get 2" maple wood platform for it.

[_scotty_]

michaelv, What has not been spelled out in previous posts is that your system is a chain that is only as good as it's weakest link.  If you concentrate
on the speaker to room interaction and optimise that end of the the chain you could have a musical result but you may have neglected other links.
Success in putting together a high resolution system starts with the source and ends with the speakers/room.  If I were to put emphasis on any one component in the chain it would be on the source.  At the end of the day if you have everything perfect in your system from top to bottom and you don't have a good source your system can sound like poor transister radio.  I have to disagree in part with previous posters about how good most SS preamps and amps are these days.  They are right if they say that you can get a musical result from many brands and combinations thereof, however, on the whole most equipment is still grossly inadequate for building a hi-fidelity,high resolution system.
Extraordinarily good, high resolution equipment, is just as hard to find now as it ever was. Speakers are the sole exception,the best of them have become much more realistic sounding over the last thirty years.
Scotty

[michaelv]

Scotty,
 When you refer to the "source" , do you mean the CD player or the CD itself?  If i could  get the most out of  my system, i would , unless i have to change it...

[andyr]

Scotty,
 When you refer to the "source" , do you mean the CD player or the CD itself?  If i could  get the most out of  my system, i would , unless i have to change it...

Hi michael,

You've received a heap of posts but you don't seem to have "digested" much of their information.    

You asked: "If i could get the most out of my system, i would , unless i have to change it...".

If that's the playing field then, fine ... get on and play!  IE. your room seems to be "treated" OK so research the theory of speaker placement, and listening chair placement, so you get the best sound out of what you've got.  You could also buy some cleaning fluids and give all your plugs and sockets a workover.

This will optimise what you've got.

Then, as Scotty has just posted, "... your system is a chain that is only as good as its weakest link".  So you need to figure out which is your weak link - it could be anything, including the cables ... or even the quality of your mains power supply!

You also asked: "When you refer to the "source", do you mean the CD player or the CD itself"?

Definitely, you should be able to hear the difference between CDs - ie. some are terribly recorded while others sound fantastic.  While the "source" generally refers to the player hardware, not the software, some software is good and some is awful!  

I guess one way to figure out which is the weakest link is borrow components for audition - from either your mates or a retail outlet (because you need to hear them in the context of your room and your system).  Or join your local audio club.  

I'm sure you'll come across SOMETHING which has a magical effect on your sound ... so you know where your weakness is.  Then, having changed that link ... you move on to the next weakest!  

And so life goes on!!  

Regards,

Andy

[_scotty_]

I am primarily referring to the CD, DVD player or TT.  Good software is important but the best CD in the world played back on a poor CD player
will not reveal it's potential for greatness. You could easily start somewhere else in your system looking for improvements, you don't have to start with the CD player. You are on the right track if every change you make to your system allows you to hear more information.
The more information you can recover and get into the air in the room the better off you are.  Eventually you will wind up back at the source equipment
after you have addressed all of the other issues.  This is where the buck starts.
 
Scotty

[Steve]

Hi Michaelv,

"One more thing, when i play at low volumn, the bass is weak but tight, but when i crank up the volume , let say 10 or 11 o'clock, the bass is really clear and loud and of course, tight. Do you see this is normal?"

This is normal as the ear itself varies in response to the decibel level. For instance at lower db levels, the ear is not as sensitive to the lower frequencies as at higher levels. So at lower db levels, the bass should seem less than at higher levels. Even the high frequency response varies a little, but not as much as the bottom end.

RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook, 4th edition, page 622, has a couple of graphs that are interesting to examine, if you get a chance some day.

Luckily I have a 5 sided room that sounds pretty good, no obvious resonances. In fact, the response, using a Radio Shack meter, is only around +/- 2db or so from 1kc down to around 40hz, with the speakers dropping off below this. This change could easily be the speakers themselves. Luckily, my walls don't produce any obvious echoes.

As far as components/room, I figure the room is the most important. It is more difficult finding other great components, such as sources, amps, and speakers, as each manufacturer uses different components, as references, when checking out their products. And how does one compare an amp to a "straightwire"?

In my opinion, preamplifiers are the easiest to test VS a "straightwire", or "nothing".
 
Hope this helps Michael.