[JLM]

Just got my RWA fully modded (battery with A/C option) SB3 running with a newly upgraded Clari-T and (confession time) I can't hear a difference (regardless of time of day or material used) between:

1. A/C
2. Battery
3. Battery (with charger unplugged)


Now my A/C power should be in good shape:

1. Rural setting, no nearby industry
2. With a 400 ft setback we ended up with our own transformer
3. New build with all new applicances
4. Minimum 12 gauge wiring/20 amp circuits used throughout
5. All 3 receptacles to the audio system are cryo'd hospital grade Hubbells that share their own ground.

So maybe my power is so clean, there is little or no difference (?).  Honestly I've only heard power related issues a couple of times and never had a problem where I've lived.


Am I deaf (or just plain crazy)?  Thanks for the psychiatric and other forms of help.  

[konut]

What is the rest of your system?

[Paul_Bui]

How long has the RWA modded SB3 been playing in your room?  How good is the wireless performance in your house?

After the required break-in period, IF the battery mode doesn't sound better than the AC, then you can be happy that your AC line is so clean and your SB3 has bonus portable capability just in case.

Yes, the rest of the system can be well another major factor:  your new SB3's potentials will be more or less easily revealed in different setups.

I'm thinking one way to find out is to hook the broken in SB3 into a headphone amp and listen to it in AC and battery modes.

[Jon L]

Just got my RWA fully modded (battery with A/C option) SB3 running with a newly upgraded Clari-T and (confession time) I can't hear a difference (regardless of time of day or material used) between:

1. A/C
2. Battery
3. Battery (with charger unplugged)


Now my A/C power should be in good shape:

1. Rural setting, no nearby industry
2. With a 400 ft setback we ended up with our own transformer
3. New build with all new applicances
4. Minimum 12 gauge wiring/20 amp circuits used throughout
5.  ...

LOL.  I wouldn't worry about it.  If I 'wanted' to hear the difference, I would live with battery power for a good month and burn-in.  One night, while playing songs you know intimately, try switching to AC power.  I suspect you'll realize IT.

[GHM]

As long as you enjoy it either way..what difference does it make? I say try not to get caught up in the audiophile nervousis and enjoy the music.
I live in a similar area. AC noise is not a problem if the gear used does a decent job of filtering it out before it reaches the speakers.

[JLM]

My system:

RWA SB3 with full mods (only 80 hours on it)
Element Cable Twisted Pair II Interconnects
RWA Clari-T with Alps pot, Auricap, and Black Gate upgrades (still fresh)
Cryo'd single strand plenum rated CAT5 speaker cable
Bob Brines FTA-2000 MLTL floorstanders using single Fostex F200A drivers
Dedicated 8ft x 13ft x 21 ft room with nearfield setup ala Cardias.  Room is well isolated acoustically.


Signal strength: 60 - 70%


No decent headphones/amp available for testing.


Have tried songs I know very well, various times of the day.  


Perhaps more break-in would make a difference.

[Paul_Bui]

More adequate break-in for both SB3 (source) and upgraded ClariT (amp) is definitely in order.  Will be interesting to hear your impressions after the break-in, reason being that I heard somewhere the AC mode CAN be more robust, more dynamic due to unlimited AC power.

I used the CAT5 or CAT6 cryo twisted pairs as speaker cables for several good years.  Until recently, at the time of upgrading the BB FTA2000's BSC circuit, and based on consultations with Vinnie and GHM, I upgraded the cables to DH Lab silver solid core and liked it.  Now that the more powerful Patek has arrived, I wonder how the CAT5/6 would perform in this new setup.

[konut]

Its obvious your system is capable of resolving the differences that would be revealed by using battery power. Since you've got a dedicated transformer for your main power it mitigates the kind of powerline hash that most of us are faced with. I'm jealous. The other area where battery power has the potential to trump a conventional power supply system is instantaneous current delivery. This effect would be most noticeable during dynamic peaks at elevated SPL levels. Your system is capable of playing cleanly in excess of 100 db. Do you ever listen at those levels? If not, then maybe the battery solution is overkill in your situation. If you do listen at those levels then maybe thats the only time when you might hear a difference between the battery and the AC. I'll be curious to get your impressions once Vinnie's mods are fully broken in and you audition at loud levels.

[gary]

Definitely give the amp & SB more time to break in, at least a hundred hours if not two. As I understand it the analog mod to the SB is similar to what Vinnie does to the iPod, and when I got my iPod it sounded pretty lousy. It took ~100 hours of continuous play for it to really come into its own. I suspect the same will be true of your source.

Gary

[JLM]

konut:

Due the the relative low output that the Clari-T/FTA-2000 combination is capable of (97 dB/w/m maximum) and that I have my own enclosed room to use, I've been routinely running the SB around around 35 - 38 (of 40 output).  As I understand it would be the volume setting of the SB that would be more of an issue than the room sound pressure level.


Jon L., Paul Bui, and gary:

I understand the break-in effect, but if the battery itself doesn't break-in there should be no difference whether I'm using a fresh or well worn SB.  The system is sounding better and better, but of course break-in takes a while with batteries.  There seems to be plenty of resolution available to hear any obvious (or even subtle) differences.

[Vinnie R.]

Hi JLM,

I apologize for my delayed response:

So maybe my power is so clean, there is little or no difference (?). Honestly I've only heard power related issues a couple of times and never had a problem where I've lived.

Am I deaf (or just plain crazy)? Thanks for the psychiatric and other forms of help.

I have no business telling you that you are crazy or deaf or whatever....especially since you are a loyal Red Wine customer  

What I can say is that the amount of difference that you hear in switching to SLA power DOES depend on how clean your AC power is.  Also, the AC wall wart for the modded SB passes through a linear regualtor (installed inside of the battery enclosure) before feeding the SB, and I increase the filtering on the input to the SB.  In other words... even powering the SB with the provided 12V AC wall wort sounds quite good with the modded SB.  

More adequate break-in for both SB3 (source) and upgraded ClariT (amp) is definitely in order. Will be interesting to hear your impressions after the break-in, reason being that I heard somewhere the AC mode CAN be more robust, more dynamic due to unlimited AC power.

I'd say Paul has a good point about allowing for both your modded SB3 and newly upgraded Clari-T to break-in.  Both of these components are new to you and need to break in, and you need to become familiar with the sound.

However, the AC mode will certainly NOT be more robust or dynamic sounding than SLA mode (unless the battery voltage drops down below the point where it is time for a charge).  The power output of the AC wall wart is NOT unlimited... it is limited to 12V @ 2A.  Testing this supply under load will not only show that it can't output much more current than 2A, but it will either overheat, blow a fuse, or blow an internal component if you try to squeeze out more current.  The SLA battery that I use for the SB can output BIG current.  I tested it under load (power resistors) to easily output 10A and still keep the voltage above 12V!  

In the case of powering the SB, I don't believe that it will ever draw current over 1.5A, so a power supply that can output more current is not needed and should not matter as far as dynamics are concerned.  The dac is the part in the SB that outputs the analog signal and feeds your amp.  The dac is not a power amp and does not need large instantaneous current (it only needs a few mA of current... I'd say less than 50mA), so using either a power supply or battery should not give a change in the dyanamics of the music (assuming that the power supply or battery can deliver voltage/current required by the device).  I have found that the improvement in using SLA power for dacs is in the cleanliness of the signal (removal of grain, hash, noise, etc.).  

Since you've got a dedicated transformer for your main power it mitigates the kind of powerline hash that most of us are faced with. I'm jealous. The other area where battery power has the potential to trump a conventional power supply system is instantaneous current delivery. This effect would be most noticeable during dynamic peaks at elevated SPL levels.

Yes, I agree with this for power amplifiers, which need clean and powerful instantaneous current delivery for dynamic peaks in the music.  This is where SLAs really shine because their internal resistance is so low and they can output LARGE instantaneous current....which is free of hum and SMPS noise.

Regards,

[Paul_Bui]

Thanks Vinnie for correcting me.  The RWA SB2 turned out to be such a dynamic player that I feel no need to upgrade to an external DAC.  I should have ordered the AC/DC mod in the 1st place (like that of JLM's) to be able to leave it on forever.

[JLM]

Vinnie,

Thanks for the explanation (that will save me on all those counselling sessions   ).  From what very little I understand linear power supplies are very important to the sound quality from digital circuits and your description helps to understand why the A/C option costs another $100.

Yes, the fully modded RWA SB3 and upgraded Clari-T are coming along very nicely.  When seated at the computer I'm 6 feet directly behind the Cardias recommended nearfield sweetspot (where the sound really "locks in" almost like being in headphones), but can still hear the system improving and providing the best sound I've ever heard.

One downside though is the lack of ultimate output available from my 89 dB/w/m speakers and the 1 volt rms output from the SB.  The complicating factor is in having my own room, I can and do crank it up louder than before (and as it sounds so good why wouldn't I?).  So several times I've found myself wanting to go a bit louder only to be at the output limit.

[-Richard-]

Hi JLM,

I have no doubt that your system sounds quite extraordinary...you seem to move
carefully and systematically toward your goal of sonic refinement and weigh your
options intelligently...

I am not  patronizing you...

Rather I am going to suggest that you would be a perfect candidate for a highly
efficient OB speaker option...which you should be able to do fairly cheaply...
a panel of birch plywood with a driver like the B200 or perhaps better yet
Darrel's Silver Iris would allow your RWA amplifier or SB3 to play as loud as you
wish...that is the tremendous advantage of using highly efficient speakers...

It would also give you a feeling for what the OB does so nicely...

Without spending much money...which as you have pointed out is a very important
consideration for you...and for me as well...while we are talking about it...
the sound I hear with the B200's would have to take thousands and thousands
of dollars to duplicate...IF IT COULD BE DUPLICATED AT ALL!!!!

I am just thinking out loud here...but you seem to hit a bit of a limitation because your
speakers and amp are not ideally compatible...a perfect reason to try the OB
phenomena...you are already using a single driver and understand that terrain
very thoroughly...the strengths and weaknesses..so it should be somewhat familiar
ground for you...except you would gain a more perfect synergy with your moded
ClariT...something to think about...

Warm Regards -Richard-

[JLM]

Richard,

This weekend I'm dragging my Clari-T over to a friend's house to hear his new Silver Iris OBs, so I'll be sure to report back.  Your advice is good, and in fact is something I've considered time and again.  But OB is only my 2nd favorite speaker type.  

My babies are the FTA-2000s, the only true full range, single driver speaker I'm aware of (this ideal is important to me).  First they include the mighty Fostex F200A driver that is unlike most thin, peaky midranged extended range drivers.  They extend down to 30 Hz and don't have a stinking whizzer cone.  (IMO coaxial units are two-ways, not a bad compromise and of course all speakers are compromises, just not the one I would choose first).  Secondly the cabinet is a well designed and built mass loaded transmission line, a concept I've loved for decades for the deep, powerful, musical bass and clear midrange.  I commissioned this original pair, as such provided some design input, and drove them back from Arkansas.

By the time you use a coaxial driver or single driver (like the B200) and add EQ, and then add a sub you're a long way from my single driver/full range concept.  (But I may have an even cheaper card up my sleeve.)

[-Richard-]

Hi JLM,

I am entirely sympathetic with your wish to stay as closely as possible to the
ideal of the Single Driver Concept...I also feel that there is a kind of aesthetic purity
to that idea that can influence the music one hears...the Bauhaus dictum of
less = more...which was the driving force behind the artistic revolution in the
20th century that led directly to a new culture of modernity......and that included
every field...architecture, industrial design and all forms of literature...

That movement influenced us to strip off the barnacles of an increasingly
overheated overlayering of unessential decorative elements in favor of the direct
and simple...this revolution affected scienctific thinking just as deeply...

It was only natural that the ground of our philosophical subtexts...the mythical
base from which we derive our view of the world... would also be affected...
the ultimate effect of which was the discarding of god...an idea we are still
struggling with as science moves ever more deeply toward an absolute control
of the destiny of the "Elemental Particles"...the manipulation of every life forms
genetic DNA being merely one aspect...Artificial Intelligence and Robotics
being two more...movements that have me very concerned indeed...

I have moved away from my point...but some days the urge to enter into a dialogue
with the unseen forces that are galvanizing toward concretization is compelling...

So I am entirely with you on your quest for purity...sonically and aesthetically...
in trying to find the perfect single driver implementation...and I am very curious
to hear your experiences with your friends Silver Iris coaxial OB's...

Please keep us informed...

Intent creates energy...and influences everything around us...perhaps our intent to
locate the perfect single driver paradigm will help to bring it forth from the world...

As long as the solution remains cheap (comparatively) and does not exceed a
somewhat modest scale in size...I am enthusiastic to experiment with it...

Warm Regards -Richard-