[kevinzoe]

This mssg is particularly aimed at Mike of ACI - Mike, reading the spec of both your Force and Titan subs they would appear very, very similar except for the 2" larger woofer size and cabinet size of the Titan. The amp power rating is the same, the frequency range is the same, so why would I buy the Titan rather than the Force.  Question two is what are the advantages and disadvantages to buying a pair of Forces vs a single Titan sub?  All of the above is for a high-end 2-channel stereo system.

Regards,
Kevin

[Mike Dzurko]

This mssg is particularly aimed at Mike of ACI - Mike, reading the spec of both your Force and Titan subs they would appear very, very similar except for the 2" larger woofer size and cabinet size of the Titan. The amp power rating is the same, the frequency range is the same, so why would I buy the Titan rather than the Force.  Question two is what are the advantages and disadvantages to buying a pair of Forces vs a single Titan sub?  All of the above is for a high-end 2-channel stereo system.

Regards,
Kevin

Kevin:

Other than the cabinet appearance, the real difference between the Force and Titan is max. output level. The Titan will go about 3db louder, of course a pair of Force will be about 3db louder still. For a high-end two-channel rig a pair of Force can make a LOT of sense. What are your main speakers? What frequency would you like to crossover at? How large is your room and where is their space to place the sub(s)?

[kevinzoe]

Hi MIke - thanks for your reply.
To answer your question my speakers are the Model 1 by FAB Audio (see link below) which are 97dB efficient and driven by a 6watt/ch. Art Audio PX25 SET amp.
http://www.fabaudio.com/Model1.htm

Cross-over from the main speakers to a sub or subs I would expect to be at the 32-40Hz area given that the main speakers are rated down to 32Hz.

The room is an open concept living/dining/kitchen room(s) that is 40ft long * 15ft wide * 8ft high. Speakers are at one end of the room and seating is about 10 ft away from the speakers.

Positioning the sub or subs will probably be just in front of the main speakers and against a side wall given the current furniture layout and WAF (can't forget the WAF!).

So, for music are 2 subs better (and the odd DVD movie) than one? Is all music summed to mono below a certain frequency or is there seperate musical low frequencies for each channel, generally speaking? Also, given my room size and near and far listening positions, will a single Titan suffice or should a pair of Forces be better?

Thanks and happy new year to all.

Regards,
Kevin

[Mike Dzurko]

Kevin:

Thanks for the detailed info. I'd most certainly go with a pair of Force subs to best match up to your room and system. Besides adding the weight and power of the last octave, you'll find a significant improvement in the sense of space. Once you get them dialed in . . . turn them off and see how much of your soundstage will disappear.

[Harry P]

Kevin, I have a pair of Force subs and love them. Stereo subs are wonderful for a two channel rig. Mike is right, once you have them, you'll wonder why you waited so long

[kevinzoe]

Thanks Mike and Harry P for your replies.
Mike, I'm surprised that a single Titan will play 3dB louder than a single Force given that their amplifier power ratings are the same. I'm assuming that their efficiency rating and cross-overs are identical so wouldn't a 250 watt amp play a 10" driver as loud as a 12" driver? Excuse my ignorance - just asking so as to learn.

Let me make sure I have your info correct: in relative terms and using an index to compare a Force vs Titan sub, if a single Force loudness level is 0dB then a single Titan's loudness will be 3dB and a pair of Force subs will be 6dB. Have I got that right? (I'm using the 0/3/6dB figures for relative comparisons not absolute loudness numbers.)

Does your room correction software (sorry forgot product's name) work for a pair of subs or just a single sub?

HarryP - glad you're enjoying your Force subs. Ever consider upgrading to say a pair of Maestro's?!?

Kevin

[Kishore]

Kudos to Mike for his class act of not 'overselling' (he could have pushed dual titans instead) ...

With proper placement stereo subs will offer better experience than a single sub. The 3dB is in effect double the outpur power, so Kevin you got the relative numbers right for different subs. Playing louder is subject to combination of driver, volume (of the box/sub) & peak limitation of amp .

Yeah RDES (parametric Eq not room correction) can accomodate stereo subs.

Cheers,
Kishore

[Mike Dzurko]

Thanks Mike and Harry P for your replies.
Mike, I'm surprised that a single Titan will play 3dB louder than a single Force given that their amplifier power ratings are the same. I'm assuming that their efficiency rating and cross-overs are identical so wouldn't a 250 watt amp play a 10" driver as loud as a 12" driver? Excuse my ignorance - just asking so as to learn.

Let me make sure I have your info correct: in relative terms and using an index to compare a Force vs Titan sub, if a single Force loudnes ...

Kevin:

I think you've got it and Kishore is right on. Think of it this way: to play louder you must move more air. So, either the woofer has to have a larger diameter or a longer throw, and it needs a corresponding larger volume of air behind it.  Hence, the larger Titan with the larger diameter woofer using the same amp plays louder than the Force.

[Mike Dzurko]

Kudos to Mike for his class act of not 'overselling' (he could have pushed dual titans instead) ...

With proper placement stereo subs will offer better experience than a single sub. The 3dB is in effect double the outpur power, so Kevin you got the relative numbers right for different subs. Playing louder is subject to combination of driver, volume (of the box/sub) & peak limitation of amp .

Yeah RDES (parametric Eq not room correction) can accomodate stereo subs.

Cheers,
Kishore

Kishore:

Thanks, your post is dead on and heck, I should have said two Maestros!

[oris98]

Hi Mike,

I am currently using a pair of Force running stereo subs in my 17x17x8 room with an one opening at the corning of the room about 5 feet wide extending to a 15x4x8 hall way and the stairway to the upper floor.   When I comparing my pair of Force with a 12" Monitor Audio FE 212 and the Linn 5120 12" (both are isobaric design), they played louder than my Force.  I have all the subs place at the same location for comparing.   I suspect the room setup is not optimized for the Force ?   I visited  dealer and they suggested the Velodyne DD12 or DD15 for my setup which has the internal digital equalizer.  In the show room setup, the DD15 is very transparent and does not hear any boom at all.  I feel the base instead of hearing much of it.   The dealer suggested Velodyne also has a digital equalizer (SMS1) only box designed for non Velodyne subwoofers which can maximize up to 3 subwoofer setup at a time.

Do you recommend to use Equalizer for the Force and Titan ?   What do you think if my pair of Force are good enough for my room size ?

Many thanks in advance.

[Mike Dzurko]

Oris98:

Some comments and questions
Yes I do think a pair of Force is good for your room . . .  depending of course how loud you want to play and what kind of material you play.

What about sound quality? The Force should never sound boomy, if it does, it is not setup correctly.

I'm sure the DD15 is a good sub, but what it sounded like in the showroom really gives us no point of comparison as the room and setup are completely different.

The questions:
Do you mean the Linn 5150? (the 5120 I believe is a center channel)

How exactly are you testing? Are you saying that you put a Force in a certain location, measured the output and frequency, then substituted the other subs and did the same measurements?

How do you have the Force placed, together or apart?

I'm signing off for the night but will check back tomorrow if my family allows it    Otherwise Monday. I hope other forum members will also feel free to add their nickel's worth . ..  .Happy New Year!

[oris98]

Oris98:

Some comments and questions
Yes I do think a pair of Force is good for your room . . .  depending of course how loud you want to play and what kind of material you play.

What about sound quality? The Force should never sound boomy, if it does, it is not setup correctly.

I'm sure the DD15 is a good sub, but what it sounded like in the showroom really gives us no point of comparison as the room and setup are completely different.

The questions:
Do you mean the Linn 5150? (the 5120 ...

Happy New Year Mike,

Yes, it was the Linn 5150.  Both the Linn and Monitor Audio sounds louder and the 2 Force.  This was confirmed with 2 other friends of mind.  However, I did not measure the output level.  We put the sub(s) between the left and right speakers for testing.  For the Force, I put them on the same area, about 1.5 feet apart of each other between the speakers.

I guess the setting is not the optimized.  This is one of the reason that I am looking for the Velodyne equalizer.  

BTW, how does the A and B crossovers work ?  I am setting them both the same at around 75-80 hz.   Is this a correct setup ?

Many thanks again..

[circularduck]

Oris98, I think I can comment about the 2 crossovers since I recently asked a similar question.  The crossovers essentially each increase the slope of the sub crossover.  That is, each time you add a crossover to the mix, it will get the sub "out of the way" faster.  I was told the setup used by most people is to have both crossovers on the sub set to the same point as the crossover on your receiver.  So if your crossover on your receiver is 80 Hz, you would set both filters to 80 Hz to reduce the amount of overlap with the speakers.

Other options are to have the filters maxed out and to just use the crossover on your receiver, or any other combinations that will sound best to you.

I had a somewhat unique case where I had a large peak at about 110 Hz from my main speakers, my sub (which for me is location restricted, I can't move it too much) caused some cancellation with this peak.  So, when I had my subs filters set to my receivers crossover point (90 Hz), I had this       peak, but by setting one filter to max, and the other to about 120 Hz, I got the smoothest frequency response in my room.

I guess the bottom line is that the 2 sub crossovers offer a flexibility for integration, use them however they make your system sound better.

[Harry P]

Okay so $1500 worth of Force don't play as loud as a $4500 Linn. If you want maximum out of two subs they should be placed right next to or on top of each other. Otherwise you will get some cancellations. If your goingg to do stereo subs I'd think they'd be a lot mroe than a couple of feet apart. Setup, setup, setup, it's all in the details as far as getting subs to sound great. Experiment and play with the controls to see what they do. It took me time, but was well worth the results. My stereo Force are completely seamless and powerful

[kevinzoe]

HarryP - if you place both subs next to or on top of one another for max output as you say, then don't you significantly decrease any left/right channel seperation in the bass as supplied by the woofer? This presuposses the fact that stereo bass exists and that it isn't all mixed to a mono signal below 40Hz or so . . .

Kevin

[Mike Dzurko]

Oris98:

You've gotten some good advice here:

 *Maximum output will be with both Force either right next to each other or stacked.

* Setup and placement make a HUGE difference in the performance of subs. Taking the time to play with placement first, and then adjustments yields big dividends in sound quality.

* It is a lot easier if you have at least a RS meter and graph the response you are getting.  Tuning by measurement is a great education and helps tune our ears as well.

* Using the Force in stacked mono will give the highest output and much easier to setup. Using the Force in stereo won't give you quite as much output, BUT if stereo subs are setup correctly (takes time and patience) they sound phenominal.

IF you want it to sound awesome AND break the walls down, a single Maestro will rock your world (and perhaps the neighbors as well)
Feel free to ask more questions as you get into this, and enjoy!

[oris98]

Hi all thanks for the tips..  

I would like to stick with the idea of running my subs in stereo mode.  This is the whole idea for me to buy a pair of Force instead of one Titan.   I am wondering if there is any white paper or tuning guide to setup stereo subwoofers in a room ?  I know setting up one require experience and I can imargin the complication in setting up 2 subwoofers.  I will got get a SPL meter to try out..

I have now moved the subs further (about 4 feet) apart between the 2 main speakers.   It is certainly not as loud as having them 1 feet apart.

Thanks again in advance..

[Mike Dzurko]

Some google searches and searches at places like AVS or HT Forum will give you more than you could ever digest about setting up subs, stereo subs included. I'd start by following the steps in the owner's manual one channel at a time . . .

[rockadanny]

Thanks to someone (CF) for pointing me to this white paper on multi-sub setup. It is excellent:

http://www.harmaninternational.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=1003


However, after reading it I decided to just get one sub - the Titan. My room is so odd and my one-sub-is-enough wife so darn gorgeous, I didn't think I'd ever be able to set up two subs so they would properly balance, which is the goal of having two. Therefore, if two didn't work out for me, my room size requires the Titan over the Force if left with only one sub. Maybe at some point in the future I might play with a second sub.

Good luck!