Your Thoughts: McCormack DNA 500 Vs. Spectron Musician III

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ScottMayo

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Re: Follow Up
« Reply #40 on: 28 Dec 2005, 12:08 am »
Quote from: samplesj
You are bypassing a VERY important question with respect to lpad/pot adjustable speakers.  How accurate are those pots?  Are they totally linear and do they track equally?


These would be the fancy, micro-adjustable, one tiny click at a time pots that Brian goes on about? I believe they are pretty good. I'd certainly match them against the 1% tolerance stuff that shows up in some crossovers...

Hardwired designs present the problem that when the parts go out of true - and all parts do in time - you get to rebuild the crossover if you want it fixed. Of course, a lot of audiophiles are in the new-speaker-line-a-year club and don't need to think about this. I've held speakers for over a decade, and I do.

(On ignoring: I don't have anyone on ignore. Had I known that was an option, I'd had put a few people on the list and saved myself the temptation of a lot of arguments. Can someone *please* tell me how this is done? Think of it as an investment in a quieter AC.
 :D  )

Marbles

Your Thoughts: McCormack DNA 500 Vs. Spectron Musician III
« Reply #41 on: 28 Dec 2005, 12:16 am »
Warner, I agree with everything you said.....and even what you didn't say, which is to listen for yourself and demo, demo, demo.

TomS

Your Thoughts: McCormack DNA 500 Vs. Spectron Musician III
« Reply #42 on: 28 Dec 2005, 12:48 am »
Scott Mayo wrote:  "Hardwired designs present the problem that when the parts go out of true - and all parts do in time - you get to rebuild the crossover if you want it fixed"

I've been following this thread with some amusement, but as an electrical engineer just couldn't let this comment pass.  I think the makers of all those mil-spec resistors and caps would be really surprised to know they go "out of true".  I don't know what VMPS uses, but I haven't experienced crossovers going out of spec unless they started out that way.  Even with extremes of temp and humidity that just doesn't happen with modern parts.  Physical shock might damage an inductor, but other than that they stay put.  I'm much more concerned about a rotating pot with carbon, film, or ww elements that get noisy and don't make the greatest contact all the time.  That's why we hardwire all this stuff to begin with, because it's more reliable.[/quote]

zybar

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Your Thoughts: McCormack DNA 500 Vs. Spectron Musician III
« Reply #43 on: 28 Dec 2005, 01:23 am »
Quote from: ScottMayo
But suggesting that someone buy a new amp when it's possible that two clicks on a speak pot, or an EQ change, or another bass trap are what they are after... no, sorry. I just don't see it, and I'd feel, what was your world, repugnant about doing it. It's fine to consign yourself to a never-ending pursuit of "just one more upgrade!", but to knowingly take money while pushing someone else down that path? No.


On or two clicks making a big difference?  I don't think so...

Funny how when it suits a VMPS owner's purpose, the pots can do magic and turn lead into gold - while at other times it is used to just "fine tune" the sound to get the last ounce of performance.  

As for one more upgrade...

VMPS offers constant upgrades all of which are touted as changing audio as we know it!  What's the difference between spending money on improving your non-speaker cmponents vs. spending $1200 on supposedly matched caps, wave guides, or new drivers?

George

zybar

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Re: Follow Up
« Reply #44 on: 28 Dec 2005, 01:30 am »
Quote from: ScottMayo
Hardwired designs present the problem that when the parts go out of true - and all parts do in time - you get to rebuild the crossover if you want it fixed. Of course, a lot of audiophiles are in the new-speaker-line-a-year club and don't need to think about this. I've held speakers for over a decade, and I do.


Hmmm...

Should I count how many parts failed in my two pairs of RM 40's over the course of ownership?

Funny, I haven't had to open up my Salk HT3's once since I received them.

Careful throwing rocks in your glass house Scott.

George

ScottMayo

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Your Thoughts: McCormack DNA 500 Vs. Spectron Musician III
« Reply #45 on: 28 Dec 2005, 02:06 am »
Quote from: TomS
Scott Mayo wrote:  "Hardwired designs present the problem that when the parts go out of true - and all parts do in time - you get to rebuild the crossover if you want it fixed"

I've been following this thread with some amusement, but as an electrical engineer just couldn't let this comment pass.  I think the makers of all those mil-spec resistors and caps would be really surprised to know they go "out of true".  


They aren't the least bit surprised. Circuit boards in mil radar arrays have expected lifetimes and it's because components drift and fail. Ask me how I know. And those are massively conservative designs, employing self test, self correction, and no-expense-spared custom parts. Continuous self-test, right down to voltage monitoring of rails, is a design requirement for a reason. It's not cheap - but it's necessary. It would be nice if it was not.

I've had amps blow up (after years) because resistors decided to change values, sometimes by emitting smoke, but not always. Old caps change value in temperature shifts. Commercial amp manufacturers rarely warrant their products for a decade; it's because they have failure modes, not all of which involve catastrophic smokeballs. I've had diodes on my workbench become temperature sensitive when they didn't start that way. Copper oxidises. Tubes gas. Discrete transistors change gain. Even ICs degrade. Anyone here ever have a PC fail?

It's fair to say that components don't change values *within their expected lifetimes*, which explains why inexpensive electronics generally don't fail until after the warranty period is over, but do nonetheless fail.

Yeah, stuff drifts. You can't beat entropy.

And yes, sure, pots drift too. But you can adjust a pot. Pots are good.

[Edit, added:]

To my amusement, John Casler just pointed to the new VMPS Europe site. I lifted this text from it just now; I hadn't seen it before:

Quote from: Brian C, lifted from a website without permission

We use pots because they allow a 1/20th of 1dB change in level to be effected by the user. Often such a change is all that is needed to tame hot trebles or a forward midrange. A fixed value does not allow the user to adapt the music to his tastes. Also, resistors are not made with sufficient tolerances to give me the precision I feel necessary for level changes. Also, fixed parts change value with age and there's nothing you can do about that. The pots change too, but all you have to do is move the wiper over one winding and you're back in business. Fixed values are invariably determined by measurement, i.e. whatever meassures flattest with your mic and test gear and environment. However, bass below 200Hz is boundary-dependent; fixed values do not allow for changes in room or placement. You're going to be wrong virtually 100% of the time, no matter what you think your measurements tell you is best.


Brian knows rather more about crossover design than I ever will, so I'm gratified to see I was in agreement with him. :-)

Marbles

Your Thoughts: McCormack DNA 500 Vs. Spectron Musician III
« Reply #46 on: 28 Dec 2005, 02:06 am »
Quote from: warnerwh
Everybody will recommend what they own as they honestly believe it's the best sound for the money....


Actually of  the 3 speakers I recomended in my first post in this thread, the Odyssey Lorelies, the Salk HT1's, and the Ridge Street Audio Sason's, I own 0 of them, and never have.

I have heard them all in my system though, and think they would work very well for him in his room, with the exceptions noted re: Sason's .

I have not heard the Salk QW but since he's looking for floorstanders, I think this would be a great choice as well from what I've heard about them from people I trust who have heard them.

I'm certainly not trying to "SELL" him anything  :lol:

James Romeyn

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Your Thoughts: McCormack DNA 500 Vs. Spectron Musician III
« Reply #47 on: 28 Dec 2005, 02:20 am »
I heard the Spectron Musican II, thought it was pretty underwhelming.  

A great single SS amp is the Spread Spectrum Technology Son of Ampzilla, rated 85W or so but sounds like 200W, really.  

But I like low-to-mid powered tubes on the midrange up, any good SS amp powering the bass.  If I was on a budget (I am) that's the way I'd go, & that's the way I went.  If you are dead set against tubes, get over it...no I'm just kidding...

I'd still biamp.  Go with a good low-to-mid powered SS amp for midrange up, & good higher powered SS for the bass.  I don't think anyone in this forum will disagree that the general trend with quality amps is: The higher the power the lower the purity & transparency.  There are few exceptions (maybe the DNA is one).

My 2c, bill is due, please forward address.....

James Romeyn

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Your Thoughts: McCormack DNA 500 Vs. Spectron Musician III
« Reply #48 on: 28 Dec 2005, 03:09 am »
Quote from: zybar

VMPS offers constant upgrades all of which are touted as changing audio as we know it!  What's the difference between spending money on improving your non-speaker cmponents vs. spending $1200 on supposedly matched caps, wave guides, or new drivers?

George


Zybar has not heard the Constant Directivity Waveguide.  Only a few Beta testers have.  It's not yet in production, but is expected late January.  IMO, it's bad form to imply something negative about something someone hasn't heard.  George implied I've done the same thing, to justify & defend his action.  Even if I did it, it doesn't make it good form.  I apologize if I ever did it.

The CDWG technology, now that George brought it up, IMO is a huge leap forward in loudspeaker technology.  I've heard it several times.  I certainly hope Brian gets measurements posted to support the claim of a flat 180 degree dispersion (with a sharp skirt) above 260 Hz, unrealized in loudspeaker technology till now.

Jumpin' Jack Flash

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Your Thoughts: Mccormack DNA 500 vs. Specttron Musician III
« Reply #49 on: 28 Dec 2005, 03:10 am »
As an avid AC reader, but infrequent contributor, I cannot be more amused at Marbles postings, especially his crucifixion of ScottMayo, dealer though Scott may be.  One with 4874 posts telling someone else that he has "persistant or irrelevant posts" is hilarious.  Reading this much hot air from one poster is obviously ego inflating for one, but nauseous to others.  Maybe the Salks do have wings, but the holy grail of sound is between the ears of the individual listener, regardless how hard one tries to brow beat the competition.

zybar

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Your Thoughts: McCormack DNA 500 Vs. Spectron Musician III
« Reply #50 on: 28 Dec 2005, 03:12 am »
Quote from: RibbonSpeakers.net
Zybar has not heard the Constant Directivity Waveguide.  Only a few Beta testers have.  It's not yet in production, but is expected late January.  IMO, it's bad form to imply something negative about something someone hasn't heard.  George implied I've done the same thing, to justify & defend his action.  Even if I did it, it doesn't make it good form.  I apologize if I ever did it.

The CDWG technology, now that George brought it up, IMO is a huge leap forward in loudspeaker technology.  I've heard it se ...


You are correct Jim and I apologize for lumping it into my comments.

George

James Romeyn

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Your Thoughts: McCormack DNA 500 Vs. Spectron Musician III
« Reply #51 on: 28 Dec 2005, 03:14 am »
Thanks George, peace to you & yours....

So you know, I just returned after reading your PM to delete my post, too late....

Marbles

Your Thoughts: McCormack DNA 500 Vs. Spectron Musician III
« Reply #52 on: 28 Dec 2005, 03:16 am »
Quote from: Jumpin' Jack Flash
As an avid AC reader, but infrequent contributor, I cannot be more amused at Marbles postings, especially his crucifixion of ScottMayo, dealer though Scott may be.  One with 4874 posts telling someone else that he has "persistant or irrelevant posts" is hilarious.  Reading this much hot air from one poster is obviously ego inflating for one, but nauseous to others.  Maybe the Salks do have wings, but the holy grail of sound is between the ears of the individual listener, regardless how hard one tries to brow beat the competition.


Quote from: Marbles
If a non dealer wants to tell him all about VMPS, I don't have any problems with that. When you persistantly try to pump products you sell, or are in the process of becoming a dealer for, I do. ...


Glad I can amuse you, but if you are going to quote me, please do it correctly and accurately.

_scotty_

Your Thoughts: McCormack DNA 500 Vs. Spectron Musician III
« Reply #53 on: 28 Dec 2005, 05:39 am »
Although the temptation to bash VMPS loudspeakers looms large and they are an easy target for any number of sound technical reasons we should
probably resist the urge.  This thread has wandered rather far off the original posters topic.  
Scott Mayo's assertion that the value of passive parts used in crossovers are  subject to drift to the point that the design slope and xover frequency will not be maintained over the life of the loudspeaker is truly inspired silliness.
As is the comparision between complex radar array applications and simple
crossover circuits. The two things are not equivalent and your comparison fails the test of logic.  In as much as the pots used in VMPS loudspeakers
only affect the level of the drivers acoustic output they are no solution for parts drift which would affect the crossover slope and center frequency.
VMPS speakers are subject to the aforementioned strawman argument the same as any other brand. The presence of pots in loudspeakers is not a mark of design superiority and does not equate to something to brag about having. VMPS speakers would be better off with a multi-position switch
with fixed resistor networks to achieve the needed attenuation.
Scotty

warnerwh

Your Thoughts: McCormack DNA 500 Vs. Spectron Musician III
« Reply #54 on: 28 Dec 2005, 05:41 am »
If I were new to audiocircle and read some of the threads I've been seeing the last month or so I'd leave and not come back.  Somehow, some way we've got to police our postings so they are tasteful to anyone who reads them.  A good arguement is one thing but insults and/or derogatory statements about others whether right or wrong need to be contained. Squabbling like siblings by just a few people can give this board a bad reputation. It has already started.

I like this board very much because it's like a small family here.  We have alot of great members and manufacturers who let the whole world into their businesses.  The attacks on one another will be bad for business in the long run for everybody here if it continues to escalate.  We're so far off the thread subject I'm sure most people forgot what it had been.  

We all have our own ideas on what makes a good system for ourselves.  That may be right or wrong for the next guy but criticizing anybody elses equipment or point of view is an arguement you can't win.  Everybody is right and only suggestions can be made to help another make a choice.  Don't spoil the fun for them.

maxwalrath

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Your Thoughts: McCormack DNA 500 Vs. Spectron Musician III
« Reply #55 on: 28 Dec 2005, 05:50 am »
there has been a little more fighting around here lately. some restraint on all sides would be nice. unless it's going to the fight club, take that extra 30 seconds to tone down an argumentitive post. cheers all...

Rocket

Your Thoughts: McCormack DNA 500 Vs. Spectron Musician III
« Reply #56 on: 28 Dec 2005, 06:14 am »
Hi,

I have to wonder what the original poster is thinking at the moment :?:   He signed up a couple of days ago on AC and his thread has now turned a little ugly imo.

Audiophile, any ideas what product you are going to purchase first?  I would suggest the speakers as they will affect the sound the most in a system.

I have a spread spectrum technologies 'Son of Ampzilla' and it certainly is a world class amplifier imo.  However, i've also heard a pair of nuforce reference 9's and they are also very good.  So many products to chose from it can be a little confusing.  

Anyway good luck with your auditioning  8) .

Regards

Rod

zybar

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Your Thoughts: McCormack DNA 500 Vs. Spectron Musician III
« Reply #57 on: 28 Dec 2005, 12:08 pm »
You guys are right about the fighting...

I will do my best to try and delete more of my posts before clicking the submit button.   :o

George

Carlman

Your Thoughts: McCormack DNA 500 Vs. Spectron Musician III
« Reply #58 on: 28 Dec 2005, 03:14 pm »
Hey everyone... I've been on vacation for the past few days and I'm glad to see this post has essentially self-corrected.  

I don't mind disagreements, or a little arguing here and there.  What community or 'family' doesn't have its issues? ;)

I haven't heard either amp but would like to hear the DNA-anything.  I've only heard good things about McCormack amps in general... and great things about modified McCormack amps. :)

My favorite amps have been the AKSA 100wN+, Butler 2150, and TacT 2150s.

BTW, I noticed the 2150x was recommended... I found after 2 months of dealing with it to be a joke... and I wouldn't wish it on any fellow audiophile.  Once it matures to the level the preamp's are now it might be a consideration then.

There's really nothing anyone can recommend without having some defined tastes and frame of reference.

If you said, I heard the DNA-500 and really liked its low-end punch and detailed mids but I didn't like the way the highs were presented... might be easier to work from... but just going on reviews and other opinions is just going to yield rhetoric...

Please let us know what you get to hear Audiophile39!  

Thanks for keeping things civil,
Carl

samplesj

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Your Thoughts: McCormack DNA 500 Vs. Spectron Musician III
« Reply #59 on: 28 Dec 2005, 03:18 pm »
Sorry if anyone though my posts were an attack on VMPS.  I was asking more specifically about Scott's assertation that only speakers with pots/lpads were worthy of being called hi-fi.