[audiophile39]

Thanks for the suggestion of the Odyssey speakers, which I'll look into.  I'm turned off to Merlin speakers because of the constant upgrade$$$ over the years, and I have issues with the concept of the BAM.  I just did some research on VMPS and, whao, you have to have degrees in audio engineering and physics in order to get them to operate properly, between the infinite adjustments, tuning, and "putty" (I don't think I want $4000 speakers with putty in them).  When I bought my Steinway, I wasn't required to tune it myself when it was delivered.  Onward and upward.

[Marbles]

The Lorelies are a wonderful speaker that suck you into the music...

There are two other speakers I'd take a very close look at if it were me.

The first would be the www.salksound.com HT1

The second would be the Ridge Street Audio Sason LTD.  I'm not sure your room is big enough to take advantage of the Sason's imaging magic though.

http://home.comcast.net/~rothakoustic/SasonLtd2005.html

The Salk HT3 is full range, but might have too much bass for a room your size.  That is why I recommended the monitor.

Best of luck

EDIT, Jim Salk is coming out with some new speakers that might fit your needs as well, and his 2-way floorstander QW (horn loaded) is supposed to be great.

[audiophile39]

Marbles, thanks so much for bringing Salk Sound and Ridge Street to my attention.  This site is so helpful to me in opening my eyes, and ears, to the less-known audio products that may be just as good, if not better, than the more famous "brands".  Thanks, again!

[TomS]

Isn't it great having all these choices?

I do absolutely respect your concern (with Merlin) about constant upgrades but that is definitely a double edged sword.  Bobby Palkovic continues to refine the same basic designs without coming out with a new one every month that immediately de-values what you have (over about 10 years, not months like some).  He is terrific about supporting your product whether you buy it directly or in the secondary market.  Most of them are essentially upgradeable to the latest products which is something most do not offer at all.  The BAM itself is intended to manage the bass characteristics in rooms just such as yours.   Believe me the last thing I wanted is another EQ box in the circuit (and another set of IC's) a la Bose 901, Thiel CS3.5, old B&W 801's (I had all of them long ago).  That subject is much deeper than my knowledge, though, but worth a phone call to him to explain why he makes this compromise.  Ultimately, it just gets in your head that he might have come out with something even better.  Without that knowledge, though, they just put out great natural sounding music that I can live with over the long haul.

With all that said, the Salks are a very nice option and having heard Marble's pair, they would also be very easy to live with for a long time and are works of art in terms of construction/finishes.  The Sasons do some very special things too, but there just aren't many to listen to out there yet.  They would definitely be worth a plane fare to the right place (like Marbles' or Steve's) though before you drop $7k on speakers.

[ScottMayo]

I just did some research on VMPS and, whao, you have to have degrees in audio engineering and physics in order to get them to operate properly, between the infinite adjustments, tuning, and "putty" (I don't think I want $4000 speakers with putty in them).  When I bought my Steinway, I wasn't required to tune it myself when it was delivered.  Onward and upward.

This is the problem with Brian having an out of date website. I believe he's about the fix the website...

The VMPS line come pre-adjusted. Generally, you leave the adustments alone. If your room has characteristics that you want to adapt to - or your hearing does - you have the usual crossover adjustments in back (most good speakers have those.) If you want to hack at the bass response, you can mess with the putty. It's not rocket science - you scrape off a little and listen.  I haven't needed to touch mine.

In point of fact, any speaker you buy will require careful placement in the room, and anything good has "pots" in the back for adjusting treble and/or midrange response. Brian's unusual in that he talks at length about the adjustment and tuning of the the speakers, but the reality is you go through some adjustments with every decent speaker. Brian just offers more options than others. It's not a bad thing. In fact, in a 15x15 room, that adjustable bass response might be a very, very good thing.

I think of it the way I think of sink faucets. Most of the time when you want water, you don't care very much about the temperature. So why don't sink manufactuers just make it easy and give you a simple on/off lever for the water? But they don't - they give you infinite adjustability, in the form of a hot valve and a cold valve. Most of the time it doesn't matter, but when it matters, it matters, and you're glad they are there. Same here - if you change rooms or amps, those adjustments can be your friends.

I know there's a common belief that if you buy "good gear", you get good sound, and you don't have to do anything but plug it in. I wish it was that simple, but it's a fallacy (and one promoted by too many mid-fi manufacturers).

The truth is, the room you listen in (including where the speakers sit and where you sit) has as much to do with the quality of the sound as any gear ever does. How the walls reflect sound has even more impact, which is why I harp on room treatment constantly. Speakers have a huge effect, too. Oh, yeah, amps can count - but it's never the first thing to fret over.

At your budget, you can get a glorious system. But whoever you buy it from, it's going to take some adjustment to get the best out of it. Anyone who isn't talking about speaker adjustments, room shape, treatments and so on isn't giving you the real story. (And you can see, everyone here is all over questions about your room, etc.)

You need this website. http://www.obsessionaudio.com/audiophilia/

[Marbles]

anything good has "pots" in the back for adjusting treble and/or midrange response. .
 ...

That's so much bullshit, as there are plenty of speakers that don't have the adjustments that sound better to me than the VMPS....

At least better than the fully loaded RM40 and 626R's I owned.

[TheChairGuy]

Marbles,

Scott does have that disclaimer in his sign-off.

Not that I'm here to defend the guy or anything.....he is an overt and opinionated shill.....as most know I've had several memorable tee-offs with Scott in the recent past  

[samplesj]

I think of it the way I think of sink faucets. Most of the time when you want water, you don't care very much about the temperature. So why don't sink manufactuers just make it easy and give you a simple on/off lever for the water? But they don't - they give you infinite adjustability, in the form of a hot valve and a cold valve. Most of the time it doesn't matter, but when it matters, it matters, and you're glad they are there. Same here - if you change rooms or amps, those adjustments can be your friends.

I'm not sure this is a fair analogy.  Water temperature is a totally personal thing.  We aren't trying to get a specific temperature out of the tap to match what somewhere else.  However with speakers we are trying to get exactly what was recorded back out.  As you said between the room, our hearing, and the gear it won't be perfect, but any externally added deviation is technically wrong.

By making a speaker adjustable you are moving the requirement for quality measurement gear from the mfr to the customer.  More than likely the customer won't be able to accurately measure what effect their changes have made on the "correctness" of the reproduced sound.

Also what about linearity problems within a single lpad/pot and tracking issues between a pair of them?

[Marbles]

Scott, you need to reinforce that you sell VMPS speakers in every thread that you pimp them.

Marbles,

Scott does have that disclaimer in his sign-off.

Not that I'm here to defend the guy or anything.....he is an overt and opinionated shill.....as most know I've had several memorable tee-offs with Scott in the recent past  

TCG, thank you for pointing that out...Scott my apologies for the last remark, I will edit my post.

[ScottMayo]

anything good has "pots" in the back for adjusting treble and/or midrange response. .
 ...

That's so much bullshit, as there are plenty of speakers that don't have the adjustments

I'm curious now. What have you kept, that you didn't apply adustments to? In my experience, either the speakers allow the response curve to be altered, or people incorporate EQ somewhere else, because the speakers needed the assistance. Or both. I suppose in a perfect room with ideal hearing and mass-free drivers, none of these things would be necessary, but in a hobby where people buy *cables* to adjust their system's sound, I haven't met too many people who wanted to plug together a preamp, amp, and speaker, make no adjustments at all, and loved what they got. I fact I would have assumed that I was one of the more extreme examples of that view.

At any rate, if speakers have crossovers built into them (I let out some of the single driver boxes with a pair of wires going straight to the amp), they are adjustable, and adjustments have already been made. The only question is whether they are owner adjustable or not. The resistors in the crossover are either hardwired in and out of your sight, or adjustable pots you can turn, but they are there either way and they represent a change to what the drivers do. I can't see a down side to making the pots adjustable by the owner, and there are occasional advantages. In the case of VMPS, the adjustments are made for you, but you can change them. This is bad how?

Seems to me that manufacturers of any analog electronic circuit, crossovers included, that doesn't have trim pots, is asking a lot of faith from the buyer. Maybe it works for you, but all the speakers I've own have had the pots, and sometimes that's been a very good thing. It's not like amps, drivers, and cap values never change, or that resistors always do exactly what the marking say.

If someone here makes an absolutely glorious speaker that is in no way field adjustable, my apologies. Send me a PM and tell me how you do it.

[Marbles]

The Salksound HT3 sounds better in my system than the RM40's.  They are + - 1.5db from 29HZ -past 20Khz (per the mfr.)

The Sason LTD's  do things no other speaker I've heard do.

My room is accoustically treated and I system match components to taylor the sound I like...and change components as my tastes change.

To think that only speakers that have external XO pots are "good" and all else isn't, is ignorant and a veiled attempt to frighten less knowledgable into buying your VMPS line.  I find this tactic repugnant.

To take this a step further, to think you can match the VMPS line with any equipment and think the adjustments will make up for system matching is just silly.

I will say, I did like the adjustments...there were other things about the speaker I didn't like however.

[ScottMayo]

My room is accoustically treated and I system match components to taylor the sound I like...and change components as my tastes change.

To think that only speakers that have external XO pots are "good" and all else isn't, is ignorant and a veiled attempt to frighten less knowledgable into buying your VMPS line.  I find this tactic repugnant.

I'm glad you enjoy your system. I'm also glad you have the money to buy new components to adjust the sound. Not everyone does, and it must be nice. I wouldn't think of it as a viable approach myself, then but I expect we approach audio a little differently. Before I moved up to my current speakers, I had my last set for about 20 years - and I still have them.

You'll hold me excused if I would *never* steer a potential customer in the direction you've chosen. I know it's a direction that a lot of audiophiles take and even enjoy, but it's quite expensive (and to my way of thinking, ultimately futile, in terms of musical enjoyment. Feel free to disagree). As a sales approach, it might make sense if 1) I was unscrupulous and 2) I sold a large variety of different components, so I could keep rich people on the Upgrade Path for life. That's not me, though.

But suggesting that someone buy a new amp when it's possible that two clicks on a speak pot, or an EQ change, or another bass trap are what they are after... no, sorry. I just don't see it, and I'd feel, what was your world, repugnant about doing it. It's fine to consign yourself to a never-ending pursuit of "just one more upgrade!", but to knowingly take money while pushing someone else down that path? No.

[Marbles]

Yup, you convinced me Scott...just buy VMPS speakers and you can match it with any crap and it will sound like angels singing.

[Kishore]

If you are looking at 2Ch/HT set-up other speakers (besides mentioned above) to consider are Selah Audio (RC3Rs-you can ask Rick for floorstanding version, and/or RC4) and CDWG 626/RM30s.

I am listening to RC3Rs now they are fantastic -I forget I am hearing speakers   .  I hope to get my steroid vmps speakers next year..and then Salks and then....

Don't forget to enjoy the music!

Cheers,
Kishore

[samplesj]

At any rate, if speakers have crossovers built into them (I let out some of the single driver boxes with a pair of wires going straight to the amp), they are adjustable, and adjustments have already been made. The only question is whether they are owner adjustable or not. The resistors in the crossover are either hardwired in and out of your sight, or adjustable pots you can turn, but they are there either way and they represent a change to what the drivers do. I can't see a down side to making the pots adjustable by the owner, and there are occasional advantages. In the case of VMPS, the adjustments are made for you, but you can change them. This is bad how?

You are bypassing a VERY important question with respect to lpad/pot adjustable speakers.  How accurate are those pots?  Are they totally linear and do they track equally?  At least with the standard hardwired crossover its measurable and they can (should) be matched.  The manufacturer chose those values because they make the speaker as flat as possible (or taylored to their house sound).  Without proper measuring equipment it'd be hard to make chages there without "messing" up the curve.  After all your attacks on others for making changes by ear because it sounded better to them without measurements surely that is not what you're suggesting here.

You do bring up a good point about easy access to the crossover though.  Maybe in the future we'll see more external crossovers.  It makes both stuff like TACT and also tweaking it ourselves much easier.  That is actually why the HT room and the causal den system are both DIY kits.  The kit buys me a good clean measured starting point.  My main system won't be DIY, but it has an external crossover (late Christmas present :->).  I've got the gear to measure and I know how it goes together so I could change it if I wanted, but you know I haven't wanted to change the HT or den system yet.

BTW if this doesn't get answered soon can someone quote me.  Its quite possible I'm on Scott's ignore list since I took offense to his continual selling in the acoustics forum.

[ScottMayo]

Yup, you convinced me Scott...just buy VMPS speakers and you can match it with any crap and it will sound like angels singing.

Dunno about that. I drive mine with Bryston. Not crap in anyone's book. Hm, there's another component I plan to hang onto for years. I really am an audio stick-in-the-mud. (No, I don't sell Bryston.)

There's a philosophy I believe in, and I'm going to share it because it might get people off my case. (Or not, but it's worth a shot.) It amounts to a vaguely mystic belief that buying happens from people you agree with, and you find them without actually looking.

Take folk who are into cables and power cords. They ain't never gonna buy from me. Ten minutes on my website and you know I'm not into the same religion. Even if they came in, heard my rig and thought it was wonderful, they'd go buy the speakers from someone else. Someone who understood about the power cords. Impedence mismatches aren't just an electrical pheonmena, they are a human one, too.

The people who buy from me generally fall into a certain mold. They will probably want to get a great rig and then leave it alone; they won't be on the upgradeitis path, switching manufacturers every two years. They will tend towards amps that don't give a damn what kind of wire you use, and are entirely neutral. It won't be flavor-of-the-month club gear that they are after. You won't see many folk with $5,000 ICs feeding $10,000 tube amps here; they will put that money into a long term investment into speakers and rooms, instead. They will have done their research and they will tend to believe that that's where the biggest bang is always going to be. Just like I do. They won't be people for whom this is a hobby; they will be people who want music, not gear. Gear's just the necessary evil. Most folk who have come my way have been musicians, not audiophiles. I think that's extremely telling.

Now this means I'm going to end up selling to a tiny minority of the audiophile community, and maybe not the richest ones, either. You know what? I'm good with that. This gig is not my only source of income and I don't feel I need to hustle every buck I can. I can make it clear what I stand for, let people spend as long as they like in my home playing with my rig, and then they make their decisions. If they ask my opinion or advice, I give it, without a hint of apology. It's mine and I don't charge for it.

So what I'm saying is, kindly recognise the impedience mismatch, and leave it alone. If the fellow who started this thread is my kind of of music lover, maybe he'll buy from me. If he's some other flavor - destined for audio nervosa or just plain interested in some other kind of sound - then some other seller will appear. That's fine. Having you, or anyone, jump down my throat when I give my opinions on speakers, is not so much bad for my business - people that think as you do probably wouldn't have bought from me anyway - as just sort of pointless. Sales will happen or not happen anyway. Call it karma.

I've recently given up jumping on people when I disagree - I just state my opinion and move on, these days. Now I'd like others to recognise that ad do the same. Can we be ok with this? Can we understand that I want to sell to people who will enjoy what they buy for years (now THAT will be good for my business), who agree with me about the focus of what's critical and what's irrelevant? Can we agree that it's ok if you think that speakers that don't have pots are somehow superior, even though on my planet, that doesn't make a single lick of sense? We don't HAVE to agree and I'm damn tired of all the heavy adjectives coming out, when I express what is very clearly MY opinion and the focus of MY business.

Whether we're good or not, good luck on your search. I think mine's over, thank God.

[addendum: this post isn't really about Marbles. I've taken acouple of slaps recently, and I'm just kind of tired of it all. He just happened to be the one that got me to open my mouth and complain.]

[_scotty_]

Scott said

I haven't met too many people who wanted to plug together a preamp, amp, and speaker, make no adjustments at all, and loved what they got.

I am probably one of the lucky people because I have been able to just plug
the gear I have together and I love the resulting performance. The
equipement would give very good performance without any tweaks being applied at all. The system has a level of resolution however, that will allow you to hear the positive or negative impacts on its performance that are the byproduct of what some people consider tweaks. I use DIY Darumas,maple butcher blocks,lead shot, RealityCables ICs,speaker cable and powercords
because I can easily hear the resulting improvement in performance.

Scotty

[Marbles]

Can we agree that it's ok if you think that speakers that don't have pots are somehow superior, even though on my planet, that doesn't make a single lick of sense? We don't HAVE to agree and I'm damn tired of all the heavy adjectives coming out, when I express what is very clearly MY opinion and the focus of MY business.  ...

Scott, part of the problem is you are still pimping your product, and frankly I doubt people care about your business, they just want the best solution to their problems.

Your first and every post in this thread, like most threads you post in, is to sell a product.

Please review this section of the FAQ:

So what exactly is a "commercially-oriented post"?
It rather depends on who you ask... we can definitely say that you sharing your expertise in general discussion is not in this category. Almost everyone will welcome you responding to questions that arise about your products or providing additional information if it's clearly needed. The majority of members are not likely to object if you tastefully suggest that someone might be interested in checking out a product of yours that fits their specific needs. However, the following type of posts are likely to be considered by many or the majority of members as inappropriate for the general areas of the site: persistent or irrelevant posts suggesting your product, posting detailed specifications and pricing information; and not clearly stating that a product you recommend is one of your own. Regardless, don't be offended if someone objects to a post you have made about your own product or if a Facilitator reminds you of these guidelines (or for that matter, moves one of your posts) -- just take it in stride and note it down as a datapoint about what is not considered appropriate in that Circle.
----------------------------------------------------
If a non dealer wants to tell him all about VMPS, I don't have any problems with that.  When you persistantly try to pump products you sell, or are in the process of becoming a dealer for, I do.

[Marbles]

Scott, as far as making sense, here is a review of the RM40's vs HT3's at a NY rave.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=17129

Enjoy....

You should know that Zybar kept the HT3's and sold the RM40's, and 3 others posting on just the first page alone bought the HT3's  

[warnerwh]

There are very many good speakers to be heard in that same price class. What sounds good to one person or in their room may not to another. There's alot of people who have a strong liking of Magneplanars but I wouldn't own them. They do alot very well but for me I'll stick with what I have. Also Jim Thiel's speakers sound very good but I couldn't live with them myself either. The only person that can make the choice is the one buying them. Besides it's their money.

Electrostatics have alot of great attributes also. I've heard the Quads and Martin Logans.  I'd rather have an old pair of Dunlavy SCIVa's myself.  Everybody will recommend what they own as they honestly believe it's the best sound for the money. Being as they spent several grand on them I'd hope so. But the truth of the matter is only one person can make that choice of which is better, Thiel or B&W or Vandersteen(owned them too) or Magnepans or Innersounds or whatever.  I bet Rick Selah's line arrays sound outstanding too.