A TRUE REVOLUTION IN S. E. T. TUBE DESIGN...

audiojerry · « **Reply #40 on:** 18 Dec 2005, 08:47 pm »

Passion is a good thing.

Dmason · « **Reply #41 on:** 18 Dec 2005, 10:16 pm »

Count me as "passionately in" for a trip to Santa Barbara. Thanks Roger, and Richard.

Steve · « **Reply #42 on:** 19 Dec 2005, 02:52 am »

Yes, class A design can have efficiencies varying from around 16% to as high as 50% (theoretical). Doubling the output power a manual states with a given plate dissapation can be achieved. Most tube data I have seen, seems to give conditions that approximate 20% effeciency.

Increasing the idle plate voltage, decreasing the idle plate current and increasing RL (the load resistance) to optimum can increase the efficiency greatly, thus output power. Most DIYers and manufacturers use what the manual states, not necessarily what can be achieved.

One can increase the efficiency, and output power, of just about any tube from what a manual prints.

BrianB · « **Reply #43 on:** 19 Dec 2005, 07:29 am »

Okay, let me begin by saying that I'm very sorry if my first post here came off like an advertisement! This was most certainly not my intention - and I am now feeling more than a little embarrassed by my very first post on Audio Circle.

And yes, I would have to agree with srayle (hi Steven!), audiojerry, and Richard that my inclusion of the Yamamoto photo was a bit much (although I had no idea that the image would be SO LARGE!)...

In my defense, I'd like to say that I probably would have posted most of the same points in response to Richard if I were simply a Yamamoto owner and not the U.S. importer. But given that I AM the importer, I can readily see how my post (including the big photo) could put some folks off.

Richard, it was not my intention to "hijack" your thread - we've had numerous conversations over the past couple of months, discussing everything from owning an SET amp to being a college professor, and I've enjoyed every one of them. Further, on more than one occasion I suggested that you seriously consider certain amps that I do NOT sell (such as the Fi WE 421A), so I am truly hoping that you do not now see me as a "shameful" and "unethical" dealer who is only out to make a quick buck!

But, once again, I feel the need to respond to certain points that you've raised:

Quote from: -Richard-

I am not pleased with your shameful self-promotion of the Yamamoto amplifier on this thread which is devoted to exploring the
amplifier designs of Roger Modjeski among other things...to bring his
Revolutionary Single Ended Triode amplifiers to the attention of AC members who might find it of interest in their search for musical nirvana...

Yes, the focus of this thread is indeed Roger's SET designs, and it should remain so. However, I must point out that your initial post singled out the Yamamoto A-08S as a competing design that, in your opinion, was less desirable. And given that your arguments against the A-08S were debatable, where exactly SHOULD I have posted my counter-arguments?

Quote

When I discussed the Yamamoto's built-in obsolescence it was to alert AC members of the risks they take in purchasing this foreign product... I did not discuss the issue of repairs should that become necessary which is yet another important consideration...

This quote simply highlights what got my dander up when reading your initial post here. There are many, many foreign SET amps that use either 45 or 2A3 output tubes. And there are quite a few SET amps - both foreign and domestic - that use "exotic" driver and/or rectifier tubes. So why single out the Yamamoto?

And, as we discussed in our last phone conversation, I have established a domestic service center for Yamamoto electronics, which means that most repairs will NOT require sending the unit back to Japan...

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We American's have magnificat designers in our midst that deserve our attention and our support...and Roger Modjeski is certainly one of the most important of these innovators in the world of audio...

I could not agree more!

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We are being inundated by a plethora of Asian products that have had the effect of sweeping our own cultural hero's from ourattention...which is most unfortunate...

I am trying to correct, in a very modest way, this horrible imbalance and
unfortunate trend...

I am ready to state in no uncertain way that I support American amplifier designers first and foremost...

If by "Asian" you mean Chinese, then I would have to agree with you for the most part. While there are a small number Chinese companies that are more than worthy of our support (assuming, at least, that we can appreciate creativity and innovation regardless of the color of the designer's skin), the current wave of cheap Chinese audiophile gear is rapidly turning into a tsunami that threatens to drown many better-built and better-supported domestic products.

But I would have to argue that limited-production, hand-built Japanese amps from companies like Yamamoto, Shindo Labs, and Kondo do not fall into the same category as mass-produced, el cheapo Chinese amps. And, in fact, I sincerely doubt that a product like the A-08S amplifier poses more of a threat to American SET designers than your own German Visaton DIY speakers pose to home-grown, high-efficiency speaker companies such as Cain & Cain, the Horn Shopp, or Omega Speaker Systems.

Cheers,
Brian

-Richard- · « **Reply #44 on:** 19 Dec 2005, 08:04 am »

Hi Brian,

Thank you Brian for recognizing that the super huge "pop-art" image of the
Yamamoto included in your post could have the effect of seeming like a
cheap attempt to exploit this thread to advance your business interests...

Actually I have always found you to be most ethical and helpful in every way
that someone in your position can be...and I was deeply appreciative of your
intelligent and sensitive responses to my queries...I found you to be an
interesting person to talk to as well...

As audiojerry has sagely pointed out, your posts are helping to enlarge this
dialogue to include a lively comparison of what is out there and helping all of us
to have an overview that we might not otherwise be able to entertain...

I apologize if I came on a bit strong...actually if anyone has followed my posts
over the last 3 years or so that is rather uncharacteristic of me...although it would
be deeply satisfying to imagine that I am no longer capable of being simply
ignited to react...in the spiritual sense of the idea of "reaction"...I would be
guilty of self-delusion...so you have given me the opportunity to see "into"
myself and watch what is going on there...thank you for that opportunity...

Warm Regards -Richard-

-Richard- · « **Reply #45 on:** 19 Dec 2005, 06:24 pm »

Hi DMason,

It is no secret that I credit you with getting me off the audio magazine addiction and
opening my eyes to possibilities that are outside the mainstream conventional
approach to audio...your highly energized and colorful prose have helped many
of us who have followed your own evolution through the mine field labyrinth of
hype and overly advertised corporate audio products to rethink how we are being
manipulated by reviewers, audio shop owners, and advertising copy writers...

It was your post in Vinnie Rossi's Red Wine Audio forum...The Gravity Well of a
Dark Star....that convinced me and so many other AC friends to try the B200's
in an Open Baffle design...and I am still working with that paradigm shift...as you
prophetically called it...to see how to bring about as much magic as possible...

It is the work I have been doing...digging into the potential of the B200's in OB...
that lead me to Roger Modjeski's revolutionary SET amplifier designs...

So when I saw your post about wishing to sign up for Roger's historic
seminar, that should be an exciting overview of the architecture and science of
amplifier and preamplifier design, I was very happy indeed...

I look forward to finally meeting you in person and sharing insights about
the potential of SET tube amplification with the OB's...and a great deal of
other ideas that I am certain Roger's seminar will provide the opportunity
for...

Warm Regards -Richard-

maxwalrath · « **Reply #46 on:** 20 Dec 2005, 04:36 am »

Quote from: -Richard-

Hi DMason,

It is no secret that I credit you with getting me off the audio magazine addiction and
opening my eyes to possibilities that are outside the mainstream conventional
approach to audio...your highly energized and colorful prose have helped many
of us who have followed your own evolution through the mine field labyrinth of
hype and overly advertised corporate audio products to rethink how we are being
manipulated by reviewers, audio shop owners, and advertising copy writers...

It was you ...

DMason, glad to see you around. I haven't been around too much lately myself, but I know it's been a while since I've seen you post. Ditto for what Richard said. Anyway, happy to see you out and about...

BrianB · « **Reply #47 on:** 20 Dec 2005, 07:49 am »

Hi Richard,

Many thanks for your gracious reply! I must admit that my last message contained a couple of subtle jabs, but you very kindly sidestepped them, and I am most appreciative.

I am truly looking forward to reading your comments on RAM Labs' more affordable 45 SET amp, as (once again) this is a company whose products I am interested in carrying in my little shop.

Cheers,
Brian

audiojerry · « **Reply #48 on:** 20 Dec 2005, 01:04 pm »

Interesting and attractive lineup of products you carry, Brian, at Venus HiFi. Unfortunately, we are separated by the Great Lake.

All this talk about SET has revived my interest in this platform. I used to own SET, a Cary 300B Signature with WE tubes. It had many captivating qualities, but in the end it wasn't totally satisfying. In hindsight, I'm left wondering if my SET setup wasn't done optimally. I'd love to hear others' SET systems and how they perform. Since 80% of my listening is to small jazz ensembles including female vocalists, SET seems like it would be a good way to go.

JLM · « **Reply #49 on:** 20 Dec 2005, 05:19 pm »

Interesting and attractive lineup of products you carry, Brian, at Venus HiFi. Unfortunately, we are separated by the Great Financial Divide.

As I'm close by I will try to stop in, as there just isn't hardly any sources for stuff like yours anywhere in Michigan.

Jerry,

I've heard several SETs and they lack either bass output or bass control and most have various colorations (unrealistically warm/sweet). The high efficiency speakers needed to mate with them also have colorations. Reportedly the B200 driver is a real winner (efficient, musical, and able to go open baffle).

My assessment of SETs may seem anti-tube, but I would like to add a tube buffer to my digital amp someday. Just don't want to give up good bass, detail, or dynamics to get it.

JoshK · « **Reply #50 on:** 20 Dec 2005, 05:28 pm »

Brian,

Are you digs going to be open during the holidays? Specifically anytime from the 23rd - 2nd? I am going to be in Brighton, MI during that time and would love to hear some of your gear if it were to work out.

Josh

-Richard- · « **Reply #51 on:** 20 Dec 2005, 05:44 pm »

Hi audiojerry,

Most of my listening is similar to yours...small ensemble works...classical and jazz...
a great deal of voice... occasionally larger works such as Baroque or small orchestra...
Deb loves the female jazz singers from the 40's and 50's and often their back-up
musicians were the leading lights in jazz...a most fortuitous collaboration of
extraordinary talent!!

Given your love of intimate musical forms I cannot recommend the SET tube
approach highly enough...SET tubes THRIVE on intimacy...in the sense that
the subtle human qualities of music are fully fleshed out and presented in a most
palpable way...dimensional, naturally warm, liquid, and accessible...this last
characteristic may seem to point to something not exactly musical...but believe
me it is...in the sense that a connection is made...it is felt as a deeply emotional
empathy with the inner intent of the music...the intelligence...or perhaps
the innate suffering that is implied in the musical narrative...is exposed and
fully revealed...

Subtle though this is...it becomes everything...once you are aware of it's presence...
and then the usual HiFi concerns that we tend to wrap ourselves around become
irrelevant...

Anything that interferes with that connectiveness is an impediment for me...in
strictly musical terms...and that is why I am pursuing the world of SET's with
diligence...tinged with a bit of the obsessive...it is an experience I want in my life...

However...speakers become an even more critical part of the equation...once
you decide to move in the direction of SET's...I strongly recommend wide range
drivers...Louis Cochos of Omega has excellent examples of speakers that use
wide range drivers and his prices are most congenial...and there is also the
B200 in Open Baffle configuration should you feel a bit adventurous and want
to see what the excitement is all about surrounding this essentially new paradigm
shift of doing away with cabinets entirely....

With Rogers new 45 SET amplifier, my OB's sounded like HUGE horn speakers
like the Cogent I heard recently in the VTV show in Pasadena...as if I was in a
vast hall...everything suspended in a bloom of space that gave life and realism
to voices and instruments...quite extraordinary really...

The world of the SET is very different from the "measured" world of putting together
all the pieces in the hope of finally arriving at the sum total of every positive attribute
one can account for...a sum of additions if you will...

It is about an essentially ORGANIC all-inclusiveness that makes quantifying
concerns irrelevant...

Just sharing some audio and musical thoughts...

Warm Regards -Richard-

fabaudio · « **Reply #52 on:** 20 Dec 2005, 06:15 pm »

JLM

Contrary to my principal of less is more I took a chance and purchased (used) a Musical Fidelity X-10v3 Tube buffer which I've been wanting to try for the longest time. I inserted it between Monica 2 and JVC ES1 and got suprisingly good results ie: the JVC is just singing along with ease w/ strong bass, smooth fatigue free and extended highs and a wonderful PHAT midrange w/ slight presence gain.

Speakers are Omega Super 3 Bipoles (version 1) 16 ohm load. Paul Speltz anti-cables.

Dmason · « **Reply #53 on:** 20 Dec 2005, 09:57 pm »

SET circuits are undergoing abit of a revisit. Everything old is new again. New thinking is being applied extremely successfully with respect to these overall very simple circuits. It is their inherent simplicity which is their greatest asset in my opinion. It points to "The Elegant Solution," for any who are familiar with classical science. Another example of Less=More equation. Nowadays these circuits are being made ever more simple, an example being the use of updated solid state power supply rectification. The loss of tube rectification in many new SET circuits are the ones to watch. The results cannot be ignored. I own two outstanding SET amps, and neither frequency extension, dynamics, nor bass is compromised. The one with CCS blows the tube rectified Uber $ET into the weeds in some important ways. JLM's caveats are now outdated generalizations which should be relegated either to the past, -or to the uninitiated.

What is next it would seem, is the use of semiconductor based driver stages, (which I have heard myself,) and the results are, -based on actual experience,-again on an order of magnitude very similar to the sonic gains made by substituting tube rectification circuits for camille cascode based direct coupled power supplies. The difference is astounding.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #54 on:** 20 Dec 2005, 10:05 pm »

Your system description has changed a bit. It seems the mad scientist has been busy in the lab, goggles down.

Good to see your ink stain the page, doc.

JoshK · « **Reply #55 on:** 20 Dec 2005, 11:41 pm »

quit talking about SET amps! You are driving the price of good old stock triodes through the roof!

audiojerry · « **Reply #56 on:** 21 Dec 2005, 01:56 am »

That was so beautifully and eloquently described, Richard - Wonderful prose!
Have you been published? Sincerely, I'd enjoy reading your views and reviews in an audio publication.

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...jazz singers from the 40's and 50's and often their back-up
musicians were the leading lights in jazz...a most fortuitous collaboration of extraordinary talent!!

Amen to that!

I don't think anyone can argue that listening to SET requires making some concessions. For me the other 80% of my music includes large symphonic works and movie soundtracks, such as the Gladiator. An SET is not going to provide the dynamics and gut wrenching slam that can be such a visceral experience.

But the lure is in the purity and and immediacy that no other medium provides, except for perhaps the OTL. However, I believe my exposure to SET has not been comprehensive enough yet.

fabaudio · « **Reply #57 on:** 21 Dec 2005, 03:30 am »

It's a pleasure to live close to New York where I have the chance to listen to great musicians - The Village Vanguard being one of my favorite places acoustically speaking. The audiophile ( phool?) in me comes away from the live listening experience thinking of an SETube-vinyl system. It happens sometimes when I play the piano. Those in the know.... well putting it in audiophile terms... The sound of live music is sweet.

audiojerry · « **Reply #58 on:** 21 Dec 2005, 01:26 pm »

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I have the chance to listen to great musicians - The Village Vanguard

One of my dreams and goals. Many of my favorite recordings originated from there. I would have loved being there with Bill Evans.

fabaudio · « **Reply #59 on:** 21 Dec 2005, 09:04 pm »

Quote from: audiojerry

Quote
I have the chance to listen to great musicians - The Village Vanguard

One of my dreams and goals. Many of my favorite recordings originated from there. I would have loved being there with Bill Evans.

I could go on forever on this subject.
Bill and Scott were the greatest musical influences in my life. When the VV sessions were released I practically locked myself in my room for weeks playing the records over and over again. Bill's left hand - those chords w/ half notes floored me.
A short story - Sometime ago I was riding in an old car with a beat up radio and tinny buzzing speaker, trying to tune in to WBGO when the DJ put on a CD that I had not heard before. But it didn't take 10 seconds for me to declare "that's a live recording at the Village Vanguard!" The DJ later confirmed this much to the astonishment of the other passengers. That's how familiar I am with the acoustics of that room! I could probably tell through a $5.00 Fisher Price radio!