[Antman27]

Hello I am thinking about purchasing 3 Nuforce Reference 8 (RCA input)
.I Now have  Denon 3805 AVR and Paradigm Studio 40"s with a Paradigm CC 350 center.
My major complaint now is at low listning levels the speakers have no unfh not enough lows,you realy have to crank up the volume on the 3805 to wake up the 40's
also my center is hard to hear the dialog in quiet seens when using (HT)
My rears surrounds are paradigm Cinemas (dont think they need amping)

What diffrences will I notice if I add 3 Reference 8 (RCA input)to my set up will it help & low listning levels & drive lows better ?
I have almost no space left in my rack and was also looking into the new sunfire flat 8 amp its only one inch & 100WX8
any other thoughts ?

[warnerwh]

Welcome to Audiocircle. First I'd change speakers if I were you. The Nu Force amps would be an upgrade for sure but the problems you describe sound like you should first consider better speakers. Compared to the rest of your system the NuForce amps are very expensive. I'd compromise and first get better speakers. Amps can only do so much.  There's alot of excellent speakers that are available from the vendors on Audiocircle and the value per dollar is also excellent.

Now after you've got new speakers maybe a used pre/processor and the Nuforce amps or some multi channel amp will get you where you want to be. I've been in this hobby for 30 years and you need to have some balance with your system. Having great amps with so so speakers is not the best way.  Please don't think I'm dissing your speakers. I'm putting the cost and performance of the amps in context is all.

Another thing that may help to know is that room acoustics play a major role in the sound of your system. The bass frequencies are the ones that are the most affected.  The best thing you can do before you do anything is to always experiment with position of your speakers. It's free and can help quite alot. Try moving them closer to and farther from the rear wall in one inch or less increments. Also try toeing them in to the point of cross firing in front of you a couple of feet in increments of an inch or less. Start with them facing directly forward. If you want more help post in the Audio Central forum as there's more traffic there or pm me.

One last thing: Do lots of research before putting out alot of money. And another last thing: Learn about Room Acoustics! Cheers

[Rob Babcock]

At a minimum adding one or two good subs will do much more to improve your bass than any amp will.

[ctviggen]

I'm not so sure about that.  When I started getting into HT, my original amp was an Onkyo five-channel.  At the time, I was using Linn r/l/c and Mirage surrounds.  The Onkyo was hurting driving those!  I got an amp for my right and left Linn speakers (onkyo still on center and rear speakers), and the sound immediately improved, especially the center channel.   On the other hand, I had a sub for the low end duties.  Paradigms aren't bad speakers  -- for people who don't frequent this board, they're very popular.

[Antman27]

So ctviggen, by adding a 2 CH amp it helped out your center CH without amping it ?
So  if I ad a 2 CH amp it will be taking load off the L&R and inproving power and clarity to the center ?
Thanks ~

[warnerwh]

You could try buying a good stereo amplifier to see what it does but I wouldn't spend what the NuForce amps cost in that system unless you're going to do some serious upgrading.  In case you aren't aware there's a place called Audiogon.com where you can buy high quality used gear and there's plenty of used amps to try in all price ranges.  The beauty of buying a quality used amp is that you can at least recoup most if not all your money if you don't like it.  For 1,000 bucks there's a couple of Aragon 8008BB's that are 200wpc at 8 ohms and 400wpc at 4 ohms so they have excellent current capability and plenty of power.  Or you could even try a used Adcom 555II for 400 bucks which is 200wpc but doesn't have the current capability of the Aragons. Both of these amps you can resell for about what you paid if they don't work out. Even the Adcom would probably be a good step up. If you go with one of these amps and you still don't get where you want to be it's probably not the amps but your speaker and/or your room.

[srx04]

Paradigms aren't bad speakers  -- for people who don't frequent this board, they're very popular.

 WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!

 The Nu force ref 9's with the paradigm studio 100's V3 sound wonderful. Bass response is so prodigious that a Sub is not necessary for 2 channel/multi channel listening, only for demanding action movies.

I purchased the studio 100's that were 3 months old for $1600 in perfect shape (owner spent god knows how much only to sell his entire system,oh well my gain   )

Paradigm's (especially 100's virtually negating purchasing a sub) offer a great value/performance ratio even more so when purchasing used. Friends don't believe me when I tell them my sub is off    This hobby is so subjective that making a statement like that is well ______ (fill in the blank)

[Antman27]

Thanks for all your thoughts , I was going to get the studio 100 but $$ and floor space was not in my favor so I went with the 40's .
I DO believe Paradigm makes GREAT speakers .
I would like to lear more about room acustics and how that comes into play .
I would like to get an amp (I was looking at the parasound first ) BUT I only have about 1.5 inches left in my A/V spaceand that is why I was looking into the nuforce -I could place them behind the speakers.
I would like to see the new Sunfire flat 8 amp that is comming to a Home Theater near you soon . it is only 1 inch tall and is 800 W
I I can post some Pix I would like to hear your thoughts on my room set up & acustics
Thanks antman~

[miklorsmith]

My major complaint now is at low listning levels the speakers have no unfh not enough lows,you realy have to crank up the volume on the 3805 to wake up the 40's

This sounds like a speaker/XO issue to me, not the amp.

[Antman27]

What is a XO issue  ?

[miklorsmith]

XO - cheap, jaded audioboard-jockey terminology for 'crossover'.

Some believe crossovers, to varying degrees, "steal" power from your amp and limit scintillating low-level performance.

IMO, speakers have the largest role determining where the "power band" is.  For instance, single-driver speakers will generally sound better at lower volumes (no offense to Hornies, BrineShrimp, or Zuheads).  Many-driver, lower efficiency speakers normally need a little octane to open up.

[ctviggen]

srx04, where did I say paradigms were bad?  I never said that.  In fact, I was responding to someone who said the speakers should be replaced.  If you like your paradigms, then great.  My point was that the people who come here tend to have speakers not found in stores and found in more esoteric places.  I also said -- and what my main point was to be -- that some amps don't have the power to run speakers like that, particularlay when made to drive five of them.

[warnerwh]

Guys: I think we should be helping this person with their system. In my opinion spending a couple thousand on amps isn't his best next move considering the rest of the system.  If he's willing to spend that much then better speakers and a decent stereo amp would probably be a good move or maybe a sub to take the load of the lows off of his receiver.

 I wasn't putting down his speakers as I've had Paradigms in my home theater system and have taken people to Fred's Sound of Music here to buy them as I recommended them.  His bass is a problem and dialog is also an issue. Let's see if we can get him improvements as intelligently as we can.

[miklorsmith]

Here's the best I can do:

The Denon receiver is listed at 120 watts x 7 channels.  I don't know much about HT gear, but I've read many times that receivers almost or never will output their maximum rating into all channels simultaneously.  Even so, that looks like plenty to drive your speakers to reasonable levels and I definitely wouldn't expect low-level retrieval to be the fault of the amp.

Dialog intelligibility and muddy bass both could be related to phase, or time-smear.  If sounds from different sources are reaching your ears at different times, the brain has a hard time integrating the sources and could contribute to the symptoms you describe.  How much time have you spent with speaker and sub positioning and phase trim?  Does the receiver have controls for phase for all the different speakers?  Do your ears feel fatigued after listening for prolonged periods?

If the problem is related to phase, I wouldn't expect dialog and bass to improve considerably with volume though.  Does it sound better with only two channels activated?  If so, it probably isn't the speakers but is related to setup somehow.  If it sounds the same with only 2 channels, it's probably related to the speakers, as the amp DEFINITELY isn't to blame at low volumes if it's only driving 2 speakers.

IMO - optimizing a multi-channel system is a difficult proposition.

So, my list of probable causes based on little-to-no knowledge of MC:

1.  System setup
2.  Loudspeakers
5.  Amp

Setup is a many-faceted beast.  I'd spend a considerable amount of time with that before going anywhere else.  Plus, it's free.  Hope that helps.  If I'm smokin' something, anyone feel free to correct me.

[warnerwh]

miklorsmith's advice is perfect. After you do this please let us know how it goes. Thanks

[mca]

also my center is hard to hear the dialog in quiet seens when using (HT)

Where is your center speaker placed? If it's on top of your TV, make sure it is angled down towards your head. You may also want to try putting it on a stand in front of the TV and angle it up towards your head.
Have you tried the phantom channel setting on your Denon? I found that works better in some cases than using the center speaker if it is not properly placed.

[JLM]

Maybe your wires are crossed (speakers are out of phase).  Make sure all the speakers are all wired the same (red to red, black to black, or whatever your colors are).  

Next I'd look into the system setup.  Hopefully and owner's manual or a dealer can help.

I've heard Paradigms and was interested in their active versions years ago, but not familiar with the current offerings.  Is the center channel "matched" to the 40's (same drivers, etc.)?  If not, they probably won't blend together well from an efficiency, tonality, detail, imaging, etc. perspective.  Most folks recommend matching the front three channels.

I agree that the NuForce is a big step up from the Paradigms.  The solution is probably much easier/cheaper than buying $800/channel amps.

[MaxCast]

Hello I am thinking about purchasing 3 Nuforce Reference 8 (RCA input)
.I Now have  Denon 3805 AVR and Paradigm Studio 40"s with a Paradigm CC 350 center.
My major complaint now is at low listning levels the speakers have no unfh not enough lows,you realy have to crank up the volume on the 3805 to wake up the 40's
also my center is hard to hear the dialog in quiet seens when using (HT)
My rears surrounds are paradigm Cinemas (dont think they need amping)

What diffrences will I notice if I add 3 Ref ...

First, did you run auto set up with the Denon?  that should tell you if anything is hooked up wrong.  When done, a test tone cd and a decible meter will tell you if you have any nulls.  This may be a bit advanced.

Second, try moving things around if you can.  Make sure your center is not tucked away or angled in the wrong direction.  Pull it out and set it on a chair-just to see if it helps.

Third,  I think adding a sub and releaving the mains of <80 Hz should help the volume and bass issues.  Again the Denon will help and fix issues from 50Hz on up.

Read up on room accoustics and bass traping.

Let us know if any of these recommendations help.

[Antman27]

First I do have a Paradigm PDR -8 sub - I set up a LARGE reception area at work with 4 Paradigm SA35s driven by a carver preamp/tuner and a Crown D75 amp , the SA5s are very silimar to my 40's BUT they are in wall speakers and when I turn on some tunz at work for a party at low levels the lows pump much more base than my 40's at home ( when I shut off my sub)
so that is whet I am bassing my conclusion that my speakers need more power on -I may be wrong!
As for set up I have run the denon auto set up and nothing is out of phase
the denon does not set up the crossover or how the sub comes in to play
I have the crossover set to 80 HZ  and the 3 front LCR are set to large.
The LFE is set to main & LFE
From my understanding is the speakers are set to large they get full range and the crossover setting does not affect them CORRECT ?
When listning to music sometime I shut the sub to see how the speakers will respond & it seams a bit thin UNTILL you Crank it up .
INext is the crossover setting on the sub it is from 50hz-150HZ where should I have that set on the sub to 80hz also OR run the sub wide open @ 150 hz and the level nob wide open ?  
I played with the crossover setting on the denon & set it to 250 Hz and the sub was realy thumpin loud & notised no change at the 40's (guess since they are set to large.
PS I am using 5.1 for HT not 7.1  and I just upgraded my center to a refrence speaker to match my 40's the old center was a monitor series so i will play with the center when I  get it SOON.
Thanks again for all your thoughts

[Antman27]

No thoughts on my reply ?