Looking for a great loudspeaker system

Mudjock · « **Reply #200 on:** 2 Jan 2006, 09:12 pm »

I am a relative neophyte around here - so I'm not sure how much my opinion counts for...

I have to agree with Marbles. If I were designing amps, the Salk HT-3 would be tough to beat as a reference. There's nothing really magical about this speaker, but it has no weaknesses - very low distortion drivers crossed over to provide flat response playing well within their limitations to deliver true full-range sound and high output capability. Craftsmanship and design execution are first-rate. The HT-3 will reveal whatever your amps are feeding it without presenting an unduly taxing load (the woofer and mid are nominally 8 ohm drivers).

bhobba · « **Reply #201 on:** 3 Jan 2006, 01:32 am »

Quote from: Marbles

The Salk HT3 is your speaker, and if TC Sounds ever gets Dave Ellis the driver he has asked them for, then I think his 3 way would be AWESOME as well, but that might take a year..

Both the Ellis and the Salk are by reputation top notch speakers - well worth Franks time to audition. However with all the fine speakers out there I think it is a bit difficult to say for sure they are exactly what Frank wants. With all the recommendations he has received I think the time has come for some actual listening. I have recently purchased a SP Technology timepiece that for various reasons I can not take delivery of right now. I wonder if Frank may be interested in giving them a try? Of course the offer is for use of the speakers only - he would need to make transport arrangements. All I would like in return is a posted unbiased review.

The only thing I will say about some of the BW speakers mentioned is they seem ghastly expensive. That $20,000 US would correspond to about $30,000 Australian - OUCH.

Thanks
Bill

avahifi · « **Reply #202 on:** 3 Jan 2006, 01:34 am »

I have been talking to Jim Salk about his speakers and hope to have some to listen to after he makes a couple of crossover listening tests there. I suggested a way for him to get the sound of the super expensive optional crossover parts using much less expensive, but still very high quality, parts. A listening test there should be happening soon.

Frank Van Alstine

avahifi · « **Reply #203 on:** 3 Jan 2006, 01:36 am »

I think I am going to be privilaged to be able to listen to a set of Timepiece speakers soon, as well as as a new VMPS model. I am really greatful to these people for supplying me demos

Both will not necessarily be here at the same time, and no "shootout" is planned. Its just for my education.

Frank Van Alstine

skrivis · « **Reply #204 on:** 3 Jan 2006, 02:23 am »

Quote from: avahifi

I suggested a way for him to get the sound of the super expensive optional crossover parts using much less expensive, but still very high quality, parts.

Frank Van Alstine

Did you point him to: http://sound.westhost.com/articles/capacitors.htm

But seriously, I'd be interested to know what you showed him.

bhobba · « **Reply #205 on:** 3 Jan 2006, 06:05 am »

Quote from: avahifi

I think I am going to be privilaged to be able to listen to a set of Timepiece speakers soon, as well as as a new VMPS model. I am really greatful to these people for supplying me demos.

Great to hear Frank. Keep us all posted on what you find. I purchased the Timepieces unheard based on what Bob wrote. His ideas on speaker designing gelled with me so I found it hard to resist his 30% off deal. What you and other knowledgeable guys think is always a welcome addition.

Thanks
Bill

skrivis · « **Reply #206 on:** 3 Jan 2006, 11:21 pm »

Quote from: bhobba

Quote from: avahifi
I think I am going to be privilaged to be able to listen to a set of Timepiece speakers soon, as well as as a new VMPS model. I am really greatful to these people for supplying me demos.

Great to hear Frank. Keep us all posted on what you find. I purchased the Timepieces unheard based on what Bob wrote. His ideas on speaker designing gelled with me so I found it hard to resist his 30% off deal. What you and other knowledgeable guys think is always a welcome addition.

Thanks
Bill

I'll be interested in what Frank thinks about these also. Bob has a good handle (from what I can tell) on the engineering end of things, so it will be interesting to see what Frank thinks of the final result.

Now I just wish I didn't live in the audio wasteland of Ohio and could audition more of the good stuff.

stryder · « **Reply #207 on:** 5 Jan 2006, 07:01 am »

This is my first post here, and rather than ask a question, I am offering an opinion. May I suggest that Frank consider the following?

Spendor S8e http://www.spendoraudio.com/exp1024.htm

Totem Forest http://www.totemacoustic.com/english/products/floorStanding_forest.htm

My first thought, when I began reading this post was that the Salk HT3 would be a great speaker to audition. As I see that he would also like to sell a speaker too to replace the Biro, I do wonder if Mr. Salk could keep up with the demand another distribution channel would create?

I also thought that the SP Technology speakers would be a good idea. I have not heard them but the reviews are intriguing and it would be interesting to hear Frank's take on them. Frankly, I am a little bummed that the internet-direct channel did not work as I just learned about them about the time a dealer network was set up. That shot the price right out of my range.

bhobba · « **Reply #208 on:** 6 Jan 2006, 12:07 am »

Quote from: stryder

I also thought that the SP Technology speakers would be a good idea. I have not heard them but the reviews are intriguing and it would be interesting to hear Frank's take on them. Frankly, I am a little bummed that the internet-direct channel did not work as I just learned about them about the time a dealer network was set up. That shot the price right out of my range.

If you have a peek at the 2003 Enjoy The Music review of the Timepiece 2.0 you will see the internet direct price then was $2,795. The price of the 2.1's (a better speaker by all accounts) is now $2995. I believe Bob has done a great job in keeping prices down. Companies like SP technologies face a conundrum. Keep overheads low and sell direct over the internet. Via that distribution chain prices will be kept low but sales volume will be limited to basically word of mouth and you can not compare it to its peers - something you really want to do with a speaker costing thousands of dollars - and lets face it having a sales person looking after you feels great - the type of feeling one usually wants when spending that sort of money. Or sell via dealers where, quite justifiably, they need a markup to cover the cost of offices, sales staff, etc. Sales will probably increase but up goes the price. As I have mentioned previously everybody wants to go to a local shop, sit down and listen with the help of a hopefully non pushy sales person. But the markup for this privilege is very high (I have heard about 100% mentioned). AFAICS Bob has still managed to keep the price low while transitioning his product into the more traditional distribution network. Now you as a buyer can go to a dealer and listen to it compared to other speakers. I am rather miffed living in Australia that option is closed to me. But considering the reputed quality of Bobs speakers I have no doubt dealers in Australia will soon be found.

Thanks
Bill

skrivis · « **Reply #209 on:** 6 Jan 2006, 01:20 am »

Quote from: bhobba

If you have a peek at the 2003 Enjoy The Music review of the Timepiece 2.0 you will see the internet direct price then was $2,795. The price of the 2.1's (a better speaker by all accounts) is now $2995. I believe Bob has done a great job in keeping prices down. Companies like SP technologies face a conundrum. Keep overheads low and sell direct over the internet. Via that distribution chain prices will be kept low but sales volume will be limited to basically word of mouth and you can not compare it to ...

That really doesn't seem like a horrendous price increase. The dealers want to make a profit too, so Bob is probably making less on the speakers.

Bob seems like a reasonable guy. Maybe he'll cut you a deal since he doesn't have a dealer network in Australia? Can't hurt to ask.

stryder · « **Reply #210 on:** 6 Jan 2006, 01:52 am »

Quote from: skrivis

That really doesn't seem like a horrendous price increase. The dealers want to make a profit too, so Bob is probably making less on the speakers.

Bob seems like a reasonable guy. Maybe he'll cut you a deal since he doesn't have a dealer network in Australia? Can't hurt to ask.

You are correct: That does not seem like a large price increase.
But this does...

Quote from: SP Pres

Dear Friends,

It is with somewhat mixed feelings that I am forced to announce, effective immediately, a price increase of our products. The new MSRP for the high finish (high gloss front panel and wood veneer) for the Timepiece 2.0 will be $4,295.00/pair and for the Continnum A.D. - $6,295.00/pair.

We have been reluctant to do this as we believe high-end should be affordable to the common man with sincere interests, but we also need to develope a dealer network and are doing so at an amazing rate. U ...

--and it is what I was remembering when I wrote that -- forgetting he was specifying the high gloss finish. My bad.

I could not agree more, Bob does seems like a nice guy. Thanks for pointing out the current price. It has been some time since I have visited his web site.

Looks like I can add them back onto my list.

Hope they are on Frank's list too.

Thanks,
Michael

skrivis · « **Reply #211 on:** 6 Jan 2006, 01:55 am »

Quote from: stryder

--and it is what I was remembering when I wrote that -- forgetting his was specifying the high gloss finish. My bad.

I could not agree more, Bob does seems like a nice guy. Thanks for pointing out the current price. It has been some time since I have visted his web site.

Looks like I can add them back onto my list.

Hope they are on Frank's list too.

Thanks,
Michael

Ouch. $4.3K for the Timepieces seems pretty steep.

bhobba · « **Reply #212 on:** 6 Jan 2006, 08:00 am »

Quote from: skrivis

That really doesn't seem like a horrendous price increase. The dealers want to make a profit too, so Bob is probably making less on the speakers.

Bob seems like a reasonable guy. Maybe he'll cut you a deal since he doesn't have a dealer network in Australia? Can't hurt to ask.

I have already purchased a pair (and availed myself of his recent 30% off offer) and Bob has promised to help with shipping costs. For what you get they look like a real bargain - which is why I purchased them.

IMHO Bob is more that just reasonable - he is a top guy. It is obvious he felt the pain of having to raise the price due to dealer overhead and did everything he could yo get the price down again - and suceeded.

Thanks
Bill

Bill Baker · « **Reply #213 on:** 6 Jan 2006, 12:34 pm »

Quote

Ouch. $4.3K for the Timepieces seems pretty steep.

There are other "monitor" speakers that have much less involved with them and go for much more. If you ever seen a pair of SP Tech manufacturered and seen what is involved in their development, you may have a different opinion. Add to tis a high gloss lacquer finish and high gloss over real wood veneer!!! You are truly getting quite a bit for your money. I have seen consumers pay much more for much less.

Same goes for the Daedalus speakers. Hand crafter of solid hardwood with a finishing process that takes weeks to complete.

I think these two speakers offer more than just an amazing musical experience, they are visually stunning as well.

Quote

IMHO Bob is more that just reasonable - he is a top guy.

I am one of those lucky SP Tech dealers and also deal with a few other companies that have a smarler dealer network. I can honesly say that I work with some of the best "people" in the industry.

Bob at SP Tech, Lou at Daedalus, Stan at Usher and Mike at Jolida are among the best stand up guys I have ever had the pleasure to work with.

skrivis · « **Reply #214 on:** 6 Jan 2006, 02:04 pm »

Quote from: Response Audio

There are other "monitor" speakers that have much less involved with them and go for much more. If you ever seen a pair of SP Tech manufacturered and seen what is involved in their development, you may have a different opinion. Add to tis a high gloss lacquer finish and high gloss over real wood veneer!!! You are truly getting quite a bit for your money. I have seen consumers pay much more for much less.

Yes, there are companies that offer a far worse value.

Furniture-quality cabinetry is also nice, but it isn't what I buy a speaker for really. I do realize that a good cabinetmaker gets top dollar, and I'm not knocking Bob, his products, or his customers on this basis. I'm just saying that this isn't quite as important to me.

What prompted my comment was that a speaker like this:
http://www.friedproducts.com/monitor7.html retails for $4K. The VMPS RM40 is also just a bit more than the Timepiece. The RM30 is less. The QSO 626R is half the price.

avahifi · « **Reply #215 on:** 6 Jan 2006, 03:30 pm »

In looking at the Fried website and the info on the Model 7 referenced above, I came across the following:

>>Properly implemented series networks provide superior driver coherence, increased dynamic range and introduce a Doppler effect similar to live music that increases the sense of realism.<<

The "introduce a Doppler effect" really worries me. I would think that a loudspeaker should not "introduce" anything at all. This kind of falls in the order of "we use good sounding woods" and so on. Hey a louldspeaker is not supposed to "sound" at all, or introduce ANY effects. It is supposed to reproduce, not produce.

This statement in the Fried info is a turn off for me, unless someone can explain it better to me.

Frank Van Alstine

zybar · « **Reply #216 on:** 6 Jan 2006, 03:33 pm »

Quote from: skrivis

Yes, there are companies that offer a far worse value.

Furniture-quality cabinetry is also nice, but it isn't what I buy a speaker for really. I do realize that a good cabinetmaker gets top dollar, and I'm not knocking Bob, his products, or his customers on this basis. I'm just saying that this isn't quite as important to me.

What prompted my comment was that a speaker like this:
http://www.friedproducts.com/monitor7.html retails for $4K. The VMPS RM40 is also just a bit more than the Timepiece. The RM30 is less. The QSO 626R is half the price.

Do you read some of the VMPS threads?

It isn't just about the quality of the cabinet...

George

audiophile39 · « **Reply #217 on:** 6 Jan 2006, 03:44 pm »

I've been considering the SP Tech Timepiece and Continuum, however with the well-regarded Von Schweikert VR4 Jr, which is a large floor-standing speaker, priced around $4,000, I'm finding it difficult to justify the higher costs of the SP monitors.

skrivis · « **Reply #218 on:** 6 Jan 2006, 04:12 pm »

Quote from: avahifi

In looking at the Fried website and the info on the Model 7 referenced above, I came across the following:

>>Properly implemented series networks provide superior driver coherence, increased dynamic range and introduce a Doppler effect similar to live music that increases the sense of realism.<<

The "introduce a Doppler effect" really worries me. I would think that a loudspeaker should not "introduce" anything at all. This kind of falls in the order of "we use good sounding woods" and so ...

It's malarkey, that's what it is. One of their non-technical people evidently figured that something like a violin has a vibrating surface and higher frequencies will be modulated by lower ones - and then extended that to mean it's a desirable thing for a speaker to _add_. I don't know how they got from there to it being a characteristic of 1st-order series x-overs...

I e-mailed them about this and asked them to point me to the research showing it's a valid viewpoint, but didn't get anywhere.

They're not the same kind of company as they were when Bud was in charge. David Finley, the chief designer, is very competent, but some of the other people seem rather wonky to me.

I have a friend who's a dealer, so I haven't really had to deal with the company directly.

The Monitor 7's are very similar to the speakers I have; which is why I feel I can recommend them.

skrivis · « **Reply #219 on:** 6 Jan 2006, 04:16 pm »

Quote from: zybar

Do you read some of the VMPS threads?

It isn't just about the quality of the cabinet...

George

Obviously. That's exactly what I was saying.