[jackman]

I don't think he was "closed-minded" at all.

Frank is hardly a newbie.  He has lots of experience and he knows exactly what he wants in sound reproduction.  And I'm also sure that when he hears it, he knows it...and he knows it quickly.

He heard something that pressed all is buttons and was hugely involving for him.

Once that happens.....once all the planets align and you hear something that just floors you, and really speaks to you, and says "this is it", why continue the search beyond that?  Some ...

Dude, I don't want to argue but I have to disagree.  I've heard the Salks and can't fault Frank for his final decision, they are truly great speakers in every way.  I have met Jim in person several times and he's one of my favorite guys in audioland.  Haven't met Dennis but I've spoken with him or emailed him several times.  If anything, I'm biased towards their products because they are two of the classiest guys you could ever hope to meet.  I've also been a long-time AVA fan and have owned their previous top of the line amps and preamps.  I've also recommended AVA gear to countless people through the years.

In fact, my point was misunderstood.  I suspect there is a good (great) chance Frank would have picked the HT3's even if he had listened to the other speakers in the test.  That would have been an even stronger and more informed endorsement.  

SIMPLY STATED: It's not the decision I have a problem with (I think he chose a great speaker!), it's the process.  If this is how Frank makes "objective" decisions regarding his own products, I question his methods.  

It's too bad because IMO Frank jerked everyone in this thread around with BS that he wanted to make an objective decision regarding his next reference speakers by listening to some interesting designs recommended by the people on this board.    

J

PS - I'm sure they look and sound beautiful!  Jim Salk is a true artist and no one, NO ONE makes speakers that have his level of craftsmanship.  Also, the cult following that Dennis has achieved is no accident.  He designs great sounding speakers! Congratulations on an excellent choice!

[jackman]

Let me say one more thing...

If someone initiated a thread in which they asked for suggestions for the best amp and preamp and had AVA on the main list, but bought the first one they heard, I bet many people would be asking why they didn't...

Nevermind, it's not worth it.  Especially since I like Jim and his speakers.  I have no doubt Frank made an excellent choice so it's hard for me to argue.  I just disagree with the process if that's what you want to call it.

J

[avahifi]

The process ended when I heard what I liked.  That takes something really really special.  Nothing I have ever heard at a trade show did it for me.

Understand that even when I heard the $20000 a pair B&W 800Ds running on all our electronics I was not really all that impressed, and they made the cover of TAS with a really good thoughtful review.  They would not have gotten that good a review from me.  The HT3s would.

Others have evaluated both the HT3s and Timewindows and said they both had their plusss and minuses and both were good.  VMPS had dropped out of the picture as there was no response from my last "where are they" e-mail several weeks ago.  The HT3s were here, the Timewindows were not.  The HT3s have the bass range I need, the Timewindows do not and their bigger models are a lot more expensive I believe.

Time to close the case.

Years ago Jim Winey of Magapan told me that if you can't hear it in the first three notes it is not there.  He is right.

That simple.

Frank Van Alstine

[toobluvr]

Dude, I don't want to argue but I have to disagree.  I've heard the Salks and can't fault Frank for his final decision, they are truly great speakers in every way.  I have met Jim in person several times and he's one of my favorite guys in audioland.  Haven't met Dennis but I've spoken with him or emailed him several times.  If anything, I'm biased towards their products because they are two of the classiest guys you could ever hope to meet.  I've also been a long-time AVA fan and have owned their previous  ...

hey "dude"......chill pill time.

Frank can choose his gear however the hell he wants.
Just like you can.
It's none of your business.
As I said before, he is very experienced and knows what he is doing.
And as Frank just said here:  "the process ended when I heard what I liked".   That is his right.  

His objective was to get a great sounding speaker.  He probably initially thought he would have to listen to several to find one.  He heard one very early on that blew him away and bowled him over.  He had exactly what he wanted.  He is entitled to stop at that point.  What's the big deal?
 
You are probably just disappointed that you didn't get to hear his comparisons of several speakers.  That's understandable, I like to hear opinions and comparisons too.  But it's not a reason to get so tough.

No need to get your panties in an uproar and get so indignant.
Sheesh!!  It's only audio!
Nothing more important to concern yourself with?

[warnerwh]

Great quote by Jim Winey. He is exactly right. That's how I bought the speaker I own now.  It's also something we all should remember.

[ajzepp]

I agree, Warner....I've been contemplating upgrades for a while now. I was able to manufacture a short list, but this past weekend I heard exactly what I was looking for and pulled the trigger. I feel pretty confident that I can tell what I want when I hear it, and Frank has a lot more experience at this hobby/business than I do.....so if he says it's what he's looking for, I don't know how anyone can fault the guy. I just hope his honeymoon period doesn't last to the point where he's still not working when I"m ready to buy an amp and DAC from him  

[WEEZ]

The Jim Winey quote is indeed a good one!

While my needs for a speaker system wasn't the same as Frank's (my room is too small for a full range floorstander) I easily understand Frank's decision. He 'knew it' when he 'heard it'. Same thing happened to me- except that my speakers were the 3rd pair I auditioned. If they had been the first- I would have never auditioned the other two.

(FWIW, the speaker I bought made the other two sound 'broken')

WEEZ

[jackman]

hey "dude"......chill pill time.

Frank can choose his gear however the hell he wants.
Just like you can.
It's none of your business.
As I said before, he is very experienced and knows what he is doing.
And as Frank just said here:  "the process ended when I heard what I liked".   That is his right.  

His objective was to get a great sounding speaker.  He probably initially thought he would have to listen to several to find one.  He heard one very early on that blew him away and bowled him over.  H ...

Hey Tooblvr (I hope that's an audio reference...),

Frank asked for opinions on speakers, several people provided their opinions...Frank bought the first speakers he heard without testing any of the ones that were suggested.  I know he has lots  of experience but he's not God.  Making an objective decision means listening to more than one piece of gear before making a decision.  I don't question his final choice, just his methodology.  If you don't understand that, I can't explain it any clearer.  

It's none of my business?  It became my business and everyone else's on this board when he posted the question.  If Frank purchased the speakers without asking the board for suggestions, your point would be valid.  Plus, I expected more from someone with Frank's level of experience.  

If listening to one pair of speakers or one piece of gear, no matter how well designed, constitutes an objective evaluation in your opinion, please make sure you mention this the next time you provide an evaluation.  It will save me from having to read it.  

I wish people would take a step back and use their brains, assuming they have them.  I frequent this site because I like to learn from the experiences of others.  Posts like yours are completely worthless in my opinion.  Not because I disagree but because they add nothing to the discussion.  

I suspect I'm not the only one who is disappointed that Frank, a man so many admire, let people down by not providing an opinion on other speakers.  It's his perogative and he can do whatever he wishes.   It's also my perogative to point out that I feel cheated!  

I couldn't spell it out any clearer for you if I wrote in crayon...

Cheers,

Jack

[TjMV3]

Not for nothing,  but you repeatidly pissing all over the way Frank made his choice,  a choice that by all accounts has made the man very musically happy;  is in no way adding to the discussion or providing any usefull insight.

Maybe taking your own advice is in order.

[ajzepp]

Jack, no offense, but you're coming off like a whiney, arrogant jerk.

[Aether Audio]

Frank,

My only strongly held opinion is that the system better play music. Am I missing something important in my years of experience?

If the Salk HT-3 speakers do play music to my ears, does that mean that SP Pres thinks Timepieces won't? I don't think so.

You are quite correct sir – that’s not what I intended to convey whatsoever.  IMHO they are very musical although, just like beauty, “musicality” is in the eye (or in this case, “ear”) of the beholder.  Despite the fact that we strive for optimal performance based on scientifically verifiable parameters, the one thing we cannot engineer is folk's hearing preferences.

Is SP Pres suggesting that I have settled for something lesser than I could have? I hope not.

Again, not whatsoever.  I defer to my comments above.  All I will say is that the sonic differences between our designs and those of Salk’s are sufficient enough to render their presentations considerably different.  

Specifically, one major difference is a matter of dispersion and room power response.  The constant directivity that results from our use of a waveguide renders a significantly different “in-room” presentation from those designs that do not use such a device…in most rooms.  I believe there are other factors as well but this aspect alone clearly delineates a difference between the products of our two companies.  Which is “better”?  That’s for the customer to decide.

I certainly would still like to hear them (Timepieces) sometime. Am I sad that according to SP Pres it won't be now. No. I am satisfied with what I have now. Good wishes to all of you trying to do the very best you can for the sake of the music.

We beg your pardon.  The issue of your no longer receiving a pair of Timepieces for audition was not a decision based on our “accord.”  We were under the assumption that your interest in further auditions had ceased upon your decision to purchase the HT-3’s.  Please forgive us if that was a false assumption, but we believe most others here at AC were under that same impression as well.  

If, in fact, you are still interested in an audition, we’re sure we could make arrangements.  We would have to ask that some way be found wherein we would not have to make further investments in transport of the speakers though.  Seeing that you have just made a major purchase, it would seem rather unlikely that you (or anyone) would be in a position to reverse your decision and make another significant purchase in the near future.  We believe this to be true even in the event that you felt that the Timepieces outperformed the HT-3’s.

So, if you are still seriously interested in an audition, please feel free to contact us.  If not, please accept our congratulations with our utmost sincerity.  Audio is (or should be) about music and music is about art – and art is (or should be) for the edification people.  Whatever medium that brings one the greatest appreciation and enjoyment of the art should be applauded – even if the medium is provided by one’s competitor.  In the end, the most important thing is that lives are enriched!

-Bob

[Zheeeem]

I suspect I'm not the only one who is disappointed that Frank, a man so many admire, let people down by not providing an opinion on other speakers. It's his perogative and he can do whatever he wishes. It's also my perogative to point out that I feel cheated!

Uhmmmmmm...  I can't actually fault Frank for his process.  The facts seem to be this - he has a longstanding open call for speaker recommendations and for audition.  At the end of the day, he actually gets only one pair.  There are signs he may get more, but only barely positive.  Frank gets the one pair and likes them.  He probably recognizes that a bird in the hand is worth... well, you know what I mean.  Basically, it comes down to - I like these and I don't have anything else.  Given that he does need to carry a speaker product, it's not clear that he actually has any other choice.  Indefinite hold?

If he had actually gotten several speakers to audition and only listened to one before making his decision, I'd have to agree with you.  But that's just not the case here.

I would hope, and expect, that Frank is open minded enough that should a better speaker come along he would either reconsider or consider carrying both lines.  It is, after all, in his interest.

But honestly, I don't see the gripe in this case.

[avahifi]

Jackman, only one set of speakers ever showed up in a timely manner, and using Jim Winey's three note process, sold.

One of my reasonable skills is in remembering what things sound like pretty long term, and being able to pick out the sound of one component in the chain of all.

I still had the B&W 800Ds fresh in my mind, and of course had my modified 801s and the Biro L/1s here as direct replacements.

The HT3s are so far above my expectations that it did not take a god to figure it out.  Nothing else was coming except a bookself size set of timewindows, nothing all that stupendous to wait for any longer.

My initial setup proceedure was as follows, if anybody is interested.

First unboxed one.  Put it in a reasonable position in the room.  Played white noise and compared on HT3 to one 801 both on axis.  Passed test, whilte noise smoother on HT3, deepest bass not as pronounced, no significant colorations from either.  Tried the contour switch on white noise, found it made a useful overall presentation dip, probably right for "solid state sounding" equipment.

Next played one HT3 against one B&W 801 with system set to mono.  One observation was that the HT3 played in mono with a "big image" just as well as the modified 801 did.  The client who was helping me with the proceedure was surprised to hear the "big image" from a single mono speaker, he had not observed that before.  It takes a special grade of electronics aind speakers to do that.  Try it on your own system and then either grin or grimace.  

Music in mono?  HT3 played very much better than expected, smoother but at the same time significantly more resolving from top to bottom than the 801, exactly what I had been looking for.

OK its worthwhile to unbox the second speaker. Tests above were done first so that if the HT3 had failed, it would have saved me the significant time and effort to unbox and rebox and send back the pair.

Played the stereo pair of HT3s.  No plinth, both still cold from the garage.  Jim Winey's three note rule was amazingly obvious.  The Salk speakers were winners all the way.  Extreme bass power a little less than the 801s, extreme bass definition better than the 801s, everywhere else no contest, and a more refined and transparent and extended top end than the L/1s too and they are very hard to beat.

Finally the fit and finish and workmanship and overall looks of that of a $15000 a pair audio salon high grade speaker entered into the judgement too.  They made my old 801s look like a set of dumpy black wash machines.

Was anyone going to come up with anything usefully better for me, very doubtful.  Was time to just tell Jim Salk he was not getting them back.

Its been really fun.  I had hoped for come kind of consisus from you all but in general there were about 200 recommendations for 200 different brands of speakers (although several for the HT3s).

Anyway I will have more to say about the HT3s as I listen more.  And so far as I listen more I like them more and more, nothing negative to report on so far at all.

Hey they interview the race winner and he goes to the victory stand.  This is Nascar, not Formula One with three on the podium.  Not fair, but life is not fair. I did the best I could I think and got much better than I hoped for and by far the best value.

By the way Jim is getting a complete set of Ultra components in exchange.

Frank Van Alstine

[avahifi]

Yes, I would definitely still like to audition the Timepieces and pay shipping both ways. (Maybe only one way ) Jim Salk billed me shipping to here of course.

I have room for two different sounding but both great loudspeaker systems here.

Don't read anything negative in my just above comments, needed to be a bit defensive you know.

My sound room is based on the dead end - -  dead end principal so perhaps dispersion capabilities are not as much a factor as in most much more reflective listening rooms.  My living room and its video system system are much "hotter", maybe a great place for Timepieces?

I never quit looking for the best in audio.  Go ahead and send me the demos when and if you can.  I will certainly be looking forward to hearing them, and thanks for extending the offer.

Frank Van Alstine

[TheChairGuy]

For gosh sakes finally, Frank! - you're usually so wishy-washy in your opinions  

[konut]

Frank Van Alstine caused the formation of electrons to convey to the WWW on

"Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:56 am.  Looking for a great loudspeaker system
   
I could use recommendations for a great loudspeaker system that is not silly priced."

He got 200 recommendations. After 40 days 'in the desert' one system showed up. It happened to meet and exceed his expectations and specifications. Game over. Others had their chance. They blew it. How long was Frank supposed to wait?

[avahifi]

Wishy-washy in always being open minded enough to be looking for better?

Yes, I decided to own the Salk speakers, that does not mean they are the end of the world.

Or are you simply just pulling my chain?  If so good job.  

Besides this way I get to listen to more speakers without being assulted by an audio salon salesman.  

Frank

[jackman]

Frank,

I'm honestly happy for you and agree that you made an excellent choice.  Like I said in my earlier post, I think you would have probably chosen these speakers anyway.  I am familiar with them and with Jim Salk's workmanship and Dennis Murphy's design skills.  Both are top notch and the new speakers undoubtedly sound great.  Congratulations on an excellent choice (even though I would have liked your opinion on the other speakers mentioned in the thread)!  I agree, the other manufacturers had a chance and they blew it.  Kudos to Jim Salk for stepping up!  

To the morons (Tooblover and his toob loving buddies...) who did not understand my posts, I have neither the time nor the energy to explain my rational for my statements.  If you don't understand what I was trying to say, please call a friend (if you have one) and try to have them talk sense to you.  On second thought, just let it go.  If ignorance is bliss, I can't imagine any of you can wipe the smiles off your collective faces.

Cheers,

Jack

[rkeir]

Shhhhh. They will be raising their prices.

Congratulations.  They appear to be beautiful loudspeakers

rkeir

[Aether Audio]

Frank,

Glad to hear it!  We're still on then.  When we get nearer to shipment I'll PM you.  The pair we'll be sending is in our "Studio Finsh" - a nice looking black texture paint.  We send those out for audition just to minimize the risk of damage to an otherwise nice veneer job.

It's a good thing you have plenty of power available too.  The Timepiece 2.1's are 85dB/1W - just as the HT-3's.  And to give you an idea of their dynamic capability, we've clipped a 750 WRMS/ch. into 8-ohms (1,060Wpeak) Crown Macro-Reference driving them.  The IOC indicators would flash once every 2 or 3 seconds (playing contemporary jazz) - and there wasn't a hint of fatigue or evidence of compression.  They were ludicrously loud though!  You don't want to know what the Continuums or Revelations will do.

But you'll have a chance to find out for yourself.  Never hurts to have a couple of speaker lines to offer your customers.  

Take care,
-Bob