[bhobba]

Hi All

Since making the decision to purchase a pair of Timepieces I have been reading a lot about what people are saying.  One thing I noticed was this talk about the treble not being overly detailed.  I am scratching my head about this because it is not detail I look for in treble - it is what I call 'sweet'.

Just to elaborate a bit.  Before the arthritis got me I would often walk into Hi Fi stores and listen to their speakers.  Most I describe as one note ported 6.5 inch drivers with overly bright tweeters.  Now I do not know if they had ruler flat frequency response or not (I suspect they didn't) but on comparison with electrostatics or ribbons they sounded shrill and overly bright.  The very best speakers (and my old Gales and current AXIS speakers fall into this category) had far less forward sounding treble - not less detail - but for want of a better word - sweet.  People talk about ribbons like the Raven having this great treble (and it is not bad at all) but the best treble I ever heard was from an audax HD3P which regrettably is not made any more.  Man was that sweet.  I suspect the timepieces will be like that - or am I missing something?

Thanks
Bill

[Tbadder1]

Hey Bill

I think SP's treble is natural.  I think there's a ton of lower treble, much more than most.  Upper treble to me is musical rather than that artificial audiophile sound we all love.

Peace
Dan

[bhobba]

Hi Dan

I think SP's treble is natural.  I think there's a ton of lower treble, much more than most.  Upper treble to me is musical rather than that artificial audiophile sound we all love.

If you mean the treble you get from a lot of even high quality two ways (not all) then I may be a bit different.  I never liked that sort of stuff - as I said to me it sounded shrill compared to electrostatics like the Quad. I am getting the feeling SP speakers will have the kind of sound I like.  I have never liked ported bass that much except in subwoofers tuned really low.  Transmission lines are great - but their size - closed boxes great as well - what there is of it anyway.  I suspect the bass of the timepiece may be spot on for me.

Thanks
Bill

[cryotweaks]

Hi Bill,

I have spent a lot of time with the Timepieces lately, and can tell you that they are a great investment.  They will produce whatever is put in to them quite faithfully.  They are truthful, extremely phase correct, and very involving.  The first time you hear them you probably won't know how to classify their presentation.

I love the coherence, I love the way they sound so full range even at low listening levels.  but the most important thing is, I simply never tire of listening to them, in fact I don't think of "listening" at all, I simply enjoy.  

A tip:  When you get them, set them up no more than 7 feet apart, and avoid toeing them in.

What other gear are you running in your system? Cables?

[bhobba]

What other gear are you running in your system? Cables?

I am only buying them at the moment to get the 30% discount - for financial reasons I am not planning to take delivery of them for 6-12 months.  Initially I plan to use a XR55 and some cable purchased at Jaycar here in Australia.  I actually enjoy listening to the radio stations transmitted here in Australia on Foxtel so I will use that initially.  Then I hope to get Wayne to mod me a SB3. After that it will be happy hunting on the internet to get the music I like.   Have been very interested in
http://www.allofmp3.com/index2.shtml
because they download in Flac or failing that MPC or OGG which I believe is very transparent at high bit rates.

Then once it is set up I will be looking at amps and blind testing them with the XR55 to get the one I like.  After that I will have a look at cables and give them a blind test.

Thanks
Bill

[Karsten]

I am only buying them at the moment to get the 30% discount - for financial reasons I am not planning to take delivery of them for 6-12 months.  Initially I plan to use a XR55 and some cable purchased at Jaycar here in Australia.  I actually enjoy listening to the radio stations transmitted here in Australia on Foxtel so I will use that initially.  Then I hope to get Wayne to mod me a SB3. After that it will be happy hunting on the internet to get the music I like.   Have been very interested in
http://www ...

Bill,

I do not recommend you to evaluate amplifiers, cables etc. to be used with SP Tech speakers, with other than SP Speakers. If you do not get it right these speakers will inform you about it right away. They are very revealing and the only speakers I know about which clearly will tell you the real differences in things like cables, so obviously.

You are welcome to PM me for a few suggestions, which will fit your budget.

Brg,
Karsten

[bhobba]

I do not recommend you to evaluate amplifiers, cables etc. to be used with SP Tech speakers, with other than SP Speakers. If you do not get it right these speakers will inform you about it right away. They are very revealing and the only speakers I know about which clearly will tell you the real differences in things like cables, so obviously.

That is exactly what I plan to do.

Thanks
Bill

[cryotweaks]

Karsten is absolutely right.  The SP Techs will let you know right away what is going on in your system.  It is a blessing and a curse at first, but once you get it right....

An example, I could not get my system (with SP tech speakers) to sound right at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest this year.  The system had compression in the midrange, and a rolled off treble.  Despite my efforts I could not find the cause in time, every change I made to cables or gear changed the sound, but not that underlying characteristic.  I would think that it was "cured" for a short time, only to have it rear its ugly head once my ears had settled in.  So not finding the true cause of that nasty glare and compression, I suffered throughout the show with a mediocre sound.  

I had a chance this last month to basically reassemble the entire system as it was in the show, but substituting the timepieces in place of the Continuum 2.5s.  There was that darn glare and compressed midrange again.  Having more time to experiment now, I finally isolated it to the power cords on the monoblock amps.  I didn't consider this before because these were large awg cords, and they were fairly expensive. So they couldn't be the cause right?  Wrong! I tried a smaller , less expensive 11 awg cord from the same manufacturer, and SNAP! Synergy.  It just goes to show you that bigger and more expensive isn't always better.  And I hope this also illustrates the need to take ones time and methodically evaluate what each component or cable brings to (or takes away from) the system.
 
Cheers.

[audiojerry]

artificial audiophile sound we all love.

That sounds contradictory, at least for me. If it sounds artificial, I don't love it. Granted, it's all artificial compared to the live event or recording studio session, but the closer my system gets me to the real thing, then it's less artificial, and more I love it.

Regarding the treble sound of SP:  
All speakers have a signature, and I'd characterize SP's as being cool as opposed to warm, at least in my room and in my system.  This is neither good or bad. To put it in perspective, if you are familiar with the sound of some commercial speakers, I'd classify British made ProAc as being a bit warmer than SP, while Vienna Acoustics and the German Audio Physik as warmer still. From the definition I use, cooler sounding speakers tend to be less colored and a bit leaner sounding. This doesn't mean less bass or more detail. To me, a cooler sound means there will be a bit less body and a bit more forward presence. A warmer speaker will sound a bit more recessed with a bit more emphasis of the midrange.  This is just a nutshell classification, obviously.

Of course, a lot of the speaker's overall characteristic will be influenced by the room's characterisitics and accompanying components. Achieving the right blend is the art, and the fun part of building a system.  

[Aether Audio]

I think there's a ton of lower treble, much more than most.

Obviously this is a subjective point of view from Dan's perspective and of coarse, I'm sure he intended it as such.  I'm only responding to the objective aspect of this issue.  With regards to the science, the speakers Dan has are +/-1dB across the entire range.  However the ear/brain mechanism interprets this though, I can't say.  In what manner lower distortion and/or constant directivity and/or room intractions and/or associated equipment affects the issue   - is anybody's guess.  I just wanted to state that there is no peak or rise in the measured on-axis reponse of the speaker.  Other than that, I don't have much else to say - other than that it is an interesting observation.

-Bob

[Bill Baker]

Very well said Bob. This goes to show that even the most linear speaker is effected by all other variables involved. In fact, this is the type of speaker that all your associated equipment and your room can be measured by.

 This speaker will tell you the truth weather you want to hear it or not.

[Aether Audio]

Thanks Bill!

I will add this though.  Audiojerry wrote:

Regarding the treble sound of SP:
All speakers have a signature, and I'd characterize SP's as being cool as opposed to warm, at least in my room and in my system.

We design all of our speakers for a flat response, i.e., no suppressed upper midrange to add "warmth" or accentuated treble to add "detail," etc. - as many other speaker manufactureres do.  There is no "right" or "wrong" and if that's what you like, that's fine.  We just don't do it - sort of a philosophy thing.  I do wonder how many folks would want the manufacturer of their favorite preamp to intentionally do that though - or at least admit to it.  Somehow it seems to be OK to play that game with speakers, but not electronics.  Call me ignorant.

But...in light of the above, it is commonly known in scientific circles that the ear/brain mechanism interprets a truly flat response as being a little "bright" sounding.  That's because most enclosed spaces exhibit absorption at higher frequencies so that the overall power response is heavy on the bass end of the spectrum - and that's what we're used to hearing 99% of the time - it's what the subconscious "expects" to hear.  Concert halls are intentionally designed to exhibit a certain natural rolloff of the higher frequencies.  In fact, it has been well documented.  The frequency response of most well designed concert halls exhibit a 3dB/octave rolloff of the high frequencies starting at about 1kHz.  

I was just attending my step son's very well produced Christmas Concert yesterday.  They had the full school orchestra playing at points, and with the lights turned down low, it was easy to listen closely.  The one thing I noted above all else? - there was very little in the way of high frequencies.  This presentation was not electronically amplified, so the only thing producing sound was the natural instruments themselves and the way the room (quite large and properly treated) interacted with them.

So there you go.  That's were the "cool" comes from.  Roll off the highs a little and they'll warm right up for ya.  But then once you do that - you probably won't like it. It's funny, once folks seem to get use to a flat response, they don't want to go back.  At first they tend to think it's too bright, but then the brain locks in on it and afterwards anything less sounds dull.  That's happened to me and I've seen it happen to others here when we've worked on developing tweeter boost/cut circuits.  Sooner or later, you go back to the flat setting and that's were you end up staying - for whatever reason.

-Bob

[Tbadder1]

Bob is exactly right.  This is entirely my preception with my equipment.  In the end, if I was to choose just one description of the Continuums, it would be coherent.  These sound like single driver speakers to me, but with better extension high and low.  You know what that means?  This is a seriously fabulous speaker. It actually makes the Continuums unusual as I've yet to hear another speaker with that kinnd of combos of traits.

Audiojerry: I'm really lousy at trying to explain some things.  My comment about artificial sound is meant as a comment about a certain "audiophile" sound that is overrevealing to me and is often misconstrued for detail, when I feel it is merely a loss of musicality.  This is only my opinion and a very personal one at that.  Let me just say I've been reading your comments for years and you're as knowledgable as they come.

[audiojerry]

Let me just say I've been reading your comments for years and you're as knowledgable as they come.

Thanks, Dan, much appreciated. I'm sure others think I'm as opinionated as they come.   Truthfully, most of everything I say is personal opinion. I try not to impose it on others, and I try to stress that I'm seeing/hearing things from my point of view and within the context of my system and listening room.

Speaking of that, I absolutely agree with your views and Bob's on the perceived sound of SP Tech speakers. Both the Essence and Bella, which I currently have in my system, display this quality. If you had to define them in one word, it would be truthful. Definitely no sugar coating.

Perhaps listeners tendency to thinking that a flat response sounds bright has something to do with a great percentage of digital recordings being recorded on the bright side. I believe that many cd's sound bright inherently, and a speaker that is unwaveringly truthful tends to exacerbate this unpleasant aspect of cd's. When the same speaker is used to play one of those rare well-recorded cd's or vinyl, then the reverse is true.