[LouD]

Well, will there be one?

[Brian Bunge]

I don't know if Danny's planning on one or not, but I have had several people ask me about it.  If not, it would be very easy to just extend the cabinet height the extra 25" Danny recommends for stands and create a separate, sealed chamber below to create a tower version.  The top section would have the same internal volume, bracing, etc.

[drphoto]

Would there be any sonic advantage to this? Or is it more cosmetic?

[Marbles]

The way Brian described it there would not be much of a sonic change, except mabe having the stand coupled to the speaker might impart a very little one.

The real sonic difference would come with the bigger cabinet allowing for lower bass response of the speaker.

This might not make better bass however as it might end up softer or boomier.

It would be nice to find out though as the (lack of) low end seems to be about the only weak spot in the frequency response.

[JoshK]

In this design it seems that you would probably want a 2.5 way design.  I am not sure whether the current Delucio is a 2.5 way or a true 2 way MTM as it stands.  This may mean that it isn't a simple extention.  Then again, I am not Danny and not a speaker designer.

[Brian Bunge]

Marbles is right.  It would basically just be a tower in appearance only.  No sonic benefits that I know of.  Also, I believe the Diluceo is a standard 2-way MTM.

I am dying to have Danny design a true 3-way with either the A/V-1+ or Diluceo with dual 8's to give a truly full range tower but I haven't even discussed it with him yet.  I may just have him design something personally for me in the future.

[Danny Richie]

I have not made plans to build a floor standing version of that speaker.

The woofers are already in as much air space as they need to be in right now.

A floor standing version could be built just as Brian suggested. It might cost a little more than his already really nice and matching stands though.

Since the speaker is already reaching down in the mid to low 50's and with some claiming in room responses in the mid to upper 40's I really can't see needing them to play any lower to allow them to blend with a really good sub.

Hey Brian here is a thought for you.

Instead of building a true three way and having to insert a high pass filter on the lows and deal with the shifts in phase and timing issues that it creates, just use a separate amp (sub amp) to drive some larger drivers that you can mount below or even below and above?

[Brian Bunge]

Danny,

I'm already using a single SV12 under each of my A/V-1+'s.  I'm not getting quite the extension I want since they're sealed.  I could easily take out the driver and replace it with a Shiva or DVC 12" and then cut a hole for a port in the front of the cabinet.  Then I'd have extension down to 20Hz without any trouble.  The only problem is, the last time I tried to put the drivers then wouldn't come out.  It seems they've fused to the paint inside the recess!

[LouD]

What are the dimensions of the lower cab for the SV12?  Too bad there isn't an official GR sub solution...I imagine Danny could come up with a wizard line-level crossover/sub that could be tweaked to adapt it to all his speakers...

[Brian Bunge]

Lou,

IIRC, the enclosures are 25.5"H x 15"W x 22"D (the depth is what I'm not sure about).  There are 5 braces; one is a horizontal brace and 4 are vertical braces.  The internal volume is 3.4ft^3.  There's a picture of one of my A/V-1+'s sitting atop one of the subs in my gallery.

[Brian Bunge]

For those interested, here's the pic:

[OBF]

Since the speaker is already reaching down in the mid to low 50's and with some claiming in room responses in the mid to upper 40's I really can't see needing them to play any lower to allow them to blend with a really good sub.

Hey Brian here is a thought for you.

Instead of building a true three way and having to insert a high pass filter on the lows and deal with the shifts in phase and timing issues that it creates, just use a separate amp (sub amp) to drive some larger drivers that you can mount below or even below and above?

Danny,

Are you suggesting a low pass on the sub/s only and trying to blend them with the mains by ear?  Is it fairly easy to blend the natural rolloff with a high order lowpass?  I haven't had much sucess doing that, but I was just messing around with an older Velodyne that has a cheap and funky crossover with 2 hinge points (if I remember correctly) and I was told by a dealer it was really most effective at 80hz compared to the rest of the variable range.  Would an active crossover suffer the same issues you listed for a passive 3-way, or the same issues but to a lesser extent, and if cost was not an issue, would you prefer an active between sub and main, or just a passive on the sub/s only?

Thanks.

[Danny Richie]

When the main speakers roll off naturally at a 18 to 20db per octave rate it is pretty easy to blend a sub without rolling the main speakers off even sharper.

And yes of coarse, the ear is the most important tool I have.

It is also always much easier to blend a sub with main speakers in the 45 to 55Hz ranges. Trying to make one blend well at 80Hz or more is not so easy as bass begins to get directional and time delays become an issue as well.

Even if cost were no object I would still rather have nothing in the signal path than the best electronics.

If power handling is not an issue or driving the mains to the point that causes woofers to reach mechanical limits then why fix it if it isn't broke.

[drphoto]

I'm really close to ordering the Diluceo (gonna wait awhile on the Alpha)
I think this floorstander is a good idea. While it would obviously cost more, it would probably be cheaper than good stands, and would look better.

So how much guys?

[Val]

I think this floorstander is a good idea. While it would obviously cost more, it would probably be cheaper than good stands, and would look better.

But it will probably not sound better. What do you need more wood area refracting and resonating by itself for? And the big box resonating below the monitor is almost as bad a solution, imho.

The Diluceo is already at the peak of monitor design and its two woofers let it still cruise when the Criterion has reached its limits; with the money you saved add a pair of good sealed subwoofers (Adire Rava SE or custom DLP12) with either a Hypex plate amp (good crossover) or passive with a Marchand XM44 or XM9L, place them at corners and enjoy.

I will keep defending this option for as long as I live. And to put my money where my mouth is, that is what I intend to do with Criterions in a room smaller than what I now have.

Val

[Rob Babcock]

Still, the "big box" wouldn't just be an unbraced hollow shell.  It could be massively braced or better yet, be mass fillable with sand or shot.

I could live with stands, but with floorstanders they will always be at the correct height, as well as be less tippy than minis on stands.

[Val]

Still, the "big box" wouldn't just be an unbraced hollow shell.  It could be massively braced or better yet, be mass fillable with sand or shot.

That's why I said almost as bad. Still acoustic basics apply, midrange and tweeter out into the room for imaging (the closer any speaker gets to boundaries, the more the sound closes in around it) and bass in corners where it is flatter and more powerful (thus lower in distortion when gotten back to level). A floorstander of reasonable price and size is the worst compromise possible, if out into the room no deep bass, if back toward the walls no soundstaging or imaging. And it is not full range to start with, besides being too big and resonant to image as well as a smaller speaker. There are exceptions and workarounds, of course, the RM/X being an excellent one (Bongiorno: "I don't like speakers").

Val

[Brian Bunge]

Yes, I would build them with bracing in the bottom section and a removeable bottom for filling.  I told Danny this morning that we would build the cabinets as floorstanders for $450 each (but after rethinking we'd do them for $400 each).  This would still be with 1" MDF for all sides but the front and a 1.125" thick baffle.  All internal bracing would be 3/4" MDF.  This would only be $150 more than if you had matching stands.

BTW, I've never heard anyone say that bass was flatter with a corner loaded sub.  Louder, yes, but I never heard flatter.

[Val]

Wrong, Brian. Tom Nousaine not only said this, he proved it by extended tests and measurements of subwoofers. In fact, he said that two subwoofers work better in the same corner than in the typical stereo disposition at right and left corners.

I couldn't find a Nousaine article I thought I had (from Audio magazine) where he gives the results of his tests, with plenty of graphs. What I remember from his reasoning about the flattest response is that in corners all the main room modes are excited at about the same time. I also remember the graph of the two SWs side by side being flatter than with one at each corner.

Here is Nousaine, taken from my website:

“The main problems with rooms and speakers at low frequencies is a relative scarcity of room modes. This leads to ‘holes’ in the response at certain locations. The corner will excite all possible room modes thereby making in‑room response as smooth as it can possibly be.”

[Brian Bunge]

I know about sticking two subs in the same corner, I'd just never heard anyone say you'd get flatter response with corner loading.  I'm certainly not going to argue with TN.