[beatdownvictim]

the a8's got me thinking about getting rid of my magnepan mg12's.  I'm really actually considering it.  I've got a set of tannoy d100 dual concentric speakers coming in, as well as a set of optimus x77 with the monopole linaeum tweeters.  I might just sell everything and try out the visatons, but i really don't know what to expect from the visatons.  How are they similar and conversely, different from the magnepans.  I'm just buying a whole bunch of stuff now because i want to see what i like.  I don't envision the magnepans staying for long.  For me, i'm stupid in the way that i can't see myself paying the $1000 for the A8's.  I'd feel dissatisfied knowing i'd dump my MG12's on the A8's because with the maggies i'd have a decent resale value, but the a8's wouldn't get me nearly as much.  Can anyone give me suggestions as to how the A8 compares with the magnepan MG12's?  

Also with the market flooded with the Rocket reference 1 speakers for about $500, how would the A8 compare?  i need help guys, I love my maggies to death, but am not convinced that they are the best in their price range.  If it matters, i'm using a Vinnie Rossi modded teac (not battery powered) right now with these mods

--> New Gold RCAs (for L and R channels)
--> Wire signal directly to Amp module via Auricaps
--> Power supply mods (improve input filtering + mods to 5V and 28V rails)
--> Amplifier mods (change caps on 5V and 28V rails, add bypassing, calibrate dc offset).

Thanks for the help guys!

[mcrespo71]

If you are buying a bunch of stuff to try out what you like best, make sure everything you buy is used.  Just makes fiscal sense.  Personally, I like Maggies best out of your list, but I think you are doing the best thing by just buying them all and trying them out in your system.

Michael

[konut]

What a coincidence. I owned Magnapan Tympani I-Ds for over 10 years. I still have Optimus LX4s and I've had the A8s for 2 months. First  of all you're never going to realise the full potential of those Magnapans unless you get alot more power to them. Planar speakers are power hungry. Period. If you're not into large amps then the A8s would be the logical choice. For a cheaper alternative you might consider putting the Visatons in an open baffle. That wont work optimally unless you spring for a sub. But then I'm of the opinion that all of your choices require subs, but thats just me. I just got the AV123 Rocket UFW12, and I'm thrilled with it. Very clean and tight. All the choices you are considering have different presentations Only you can determine which one you prefer.

[ooheadsoo]

I haven't tried the A8 but I do have the B200 in large baffles mounted in the corners of my room and EQ'd.  Doesn't need a subwoofer for music as far as I'm concerned, but more bass could always be appreciated by the right audience.  I've measured the bass to be rolled off by the driver's Fs around 50hz, starting to drop around 100hz, but everything within that range is most definitely audible, and plays with plenty of energy, for some reason, despite  being technically rolled off.

That said, go with what sounds better combined with a healthy dose of what fits your budget better.

[-Richard-]

Hi beatdownvictim,

Your AC name is certainly one of the more creative mytho/poetic names within
the hallowed halls of Audio Circles forums...and always brings on a smile...

I do not own the Aperiodic 8's...yet...however I am certainly eyeing them as well...
like ooheadsoo (another fascinating name with wondrous implications) I have a
Open Baffle configuration for the B200's...the drivers used in the A8's...

And as it so happens I owned a pair of Maggie 1.6qr's for 4 years or so...

And since you seem to want some sincere feedback to help you wade through
the labyrinth of speaker possibilities I shall share what I know and what I think you
want to know...mere conjecture on my part...but then everything has the tinge of a
fictional narrative about it ...which is why film enjoys its status as the most sought
after art form in America...

I loved my Maggies and so did Deborah...with the right amplification and source
it exhibited electrostatic speed, transparency, and remarkable detail...which begs
the question...why did I sell them?

I think it is the way the Maggies load the room...and the somewhat metallic "flavor"
of the upper transients...after 4 years I felt there was something not entirely convincing
about it...call it a slight...and I do mean slight...contrivance of the musical material...
that was...well...somewhat spotlighted...

It is interesting to consider the Maggie 1.6's in relation to say the latest Quads...
which are perhaps the most sophisticated electrostatic speakers in the world with
their concentric delayed radiating scheme of the musical signal...said to appear in
space closer to how music emanates from live instrument then any other speaker...

I have gone out of my way on many occasions to hear the Quads in several audio
shops and was treated to a variety of snobbish electrical appliances including 14
thousand dollar CD players...no typo there incidentally...

In every instance they sounded beamy...and for me that seemed to reduce my
perception that I was hearing a real musical event...never mind the splendid
transparency and detail...and another thing...the dynamics is not there...if one
listens to music that is not particularly driven by throbbing energetic rhythms...
such a highly refined string quartet...you might never notice...once your musical
interests move into African music, for example...you will be aware that something
is missing from the music...a dynamic presentation...

With the Maggies the dynamics was there...but it loaded the room (as it turns out
several rooms since I moved 3 times while I owned them) in a way that lacked
intimacy...it did not draw me into the music so much as fill the space...it was almost
as if I did not need to be there...the speakers seemed to be fine playing without me...

The transparency of the Maggies was not as convincing as the Quads...but then
what is!...

Having said these few admittedly controversial things about Maggies I would not
hesitate to recommend them as a giant killer speaker for the things it does so
nicely...and it is a wonderful learning experience getting to know them and living
with them...they introduce the listener to the pleasures and joys of dipole magic!

The B200's in OB configuration sound more intimate than the Maggies...they
are just as fast...are more fleshed out...infinitely more sensitive at somewhere in
the 96db range...and load the room in a very intimate way...so that the emotion
catches you and grips you...there is something very convincing here...and...
I can use low powered tube amplification...another set of ideas entirely...which as
one gets older and demands a more sensitive "reading" of the music one listens
to is an issue you ignore at ones own loss...I am just sharing ideas here not
proselytizing...I bow to any ones different take on whatever I have said...such
is the subjective world of audio...and may it always be so...

Oh yes...no comparison with sultry Jazz female voices between the B200's
and the Maggies...it is that intimacy thing...Deb just melts with the B200's and
my low powered tube amp!

The question for a Maggie owner is this...can I go back to a closed cabinet once
I have educated my ears to understand the magic that  panel or dipole speakers
deliver so generously...radiating the sound in a 3 dimensional illusion which seems
so satisfying and renders the musical event so realistically?

Vinnie of Red Wine Audio loves his Aperiodic 8's and he has had the B200's in
Open Baffle...he feels...and I am paraphrasing him here...a dangerous business...
that the sound is very much out-of-the-box...and then there is Louis's new
Super 3 Bipoles...which use 2 Super 3 drivers in separate baffles firing front and
back at the same time...again Vinnie has heard them and feels they have a very
3 dimensional sound...easily comparable to the B200's in OB's...but with a more
substantially fleshed out lower frequency foundation...

OK...let me sum up what I am getting at...simply this...high efficiency speakers like
Louis's A8's with exquisite low powered tube amplification...like a good 2A3 or Vinnies
tricked out ClariT digital amps have much more intimacy, emotion and even detail
than the Maggies...and they load the room the way real instruments do...and if the
music demands it...the dynamics are powerful and fast...
the Maggies just sound ever-so-slightly contrived if pushed too far...

I have gone out on a limb here...but, beatdownvictim, that is exactly what you seem
to be asking for...

Warmest regards -Richard-

[beatdownvictim]

Thank you for all your fantastic feedback fellas.  I really do appreciate the fact that you all took time to read, digest and dish out some responses.  I really do feel that it is important for me to thank the AC community for providing such a good resource for audiophiles and aspiring audiophiles to broker ideas.  I don't find it to be any coincidence that a many members share, or at one time shared the same components as mine.  

I first felt a bit of disappointment in my system when it didn't stir me the way that i had expected.  Sure i got the tranparency and the huge soundstage, but as many have alluded to, it lacked a sense of involvement and emotion.  For a while there, i really did consider dumping all the stuff I had just to recouperate a bit of what i spent.  I do realize that the amplification i'm using is the bottleneck, afterall, 30 wpc is 30 wpc, and i've heard of people bottoming out their amplifiers with magnepans.  Yet again, there i am justifying the lack of musicality from my magnepans.  You all gotta realize, i've been lusting after magnepans for a good 13 years, and i'm only 25 right now.  I have a certain bias towards them that i shouldn't have.  But I digress..... my mind is scrambled right now, so please don't  dismiss this post.

I will keep the magnepans for now, but in the meantime, i will try the Tannoy DC1000's (they weren't d100's) in my system and see if this efficient (relatively) speakers sound with my setup.  I have read and heard about how the B200's are drop dead gorgeous when it comes to delivering an airy and spacious sound.  I just don't know how convincing of a job it can do, since my magnepans spoiled me with their dipole dispersion.  As everybody knows, i'm not a stickler for bass, as i ran the magnepans without a subwoofer, i don't know how the B200's can produce any bass with an open baffle.  I'm weirded out by the B200's if you cannot already tell.  It defies convention and i don't know, or should i even care how it makes sound.  I just want it to sound right, In all honesty, i haven't even owned a set of respectable standmount speakers, a jump to an open baffle, single driver, x-overless speaker would certainly be different (i've always been one for underestimation )

As for my musical preferences, I do like classical, jazz and occasionally, popular music (seldom).  Once in a while, whilst listening to my setup (Teac al700-p, Tripplite IS-250 transformer isolator, Ipod Nano - source, eichmann express 6 speaker cables, and the MG12's) i do get a sense of intimacy, but i hardly get the urge to turn it up louder.  And this is where i can draw a parallel with Richard, it doesn't seem like a very inviting speaker, and dare i say "snobby", it seems like it's performing during a rehearsal, and it never really delivers when asked.  It's stuck somewhere among the top 8/10th, but never manages to nail it down.  This is just my opinion, it's not a bad speaker, but perhaps at my age, not what i need.  

How would the B200's in an open baffle configuration sound in low volume situations? are they good or do they give up something in that department.  I know the maggies are brilliant when it comes to that regard, but if the B200's can do the same, surely i'll get a set.

Right now, i'm probably narrowing down my choices to:  Visaton B200 OB configuration, Rocket Ref 1's, and Aurum Cantus Leisure 2.

Thanks, everybody for being my inner audiophile's shrink.  I really do appreciate your input.  

At this stage, i can wholeheartedly say that my mind is absolutely beat down.

Carson

[ooheadsoo]

A while ago, I built the mbow1 designed by Dennis Murphy.  I highly suspect this speaker to be superior to the Ref 1 by virtue of the price of the components and reputation of the crossover designer.  We all know by now what a wizard Mr. Murphy is when he's not messing with our heads. J/K.  In parts alone, I spent more on the mbow1 than the Ref 1 is selling for these days, and you can guarantee Onix is still making money on the Ref 1 at $500.

I'm never going back to my mbow1, not while I have the room for my b200s.  I don't know anything about this intimacy thing, but I listen primarily to jazz and classical, with popular music thrown in to keep things interesting.  Frankly, the b200 are the better speaker in all of these genres.  I would only choose the mbow1 over the b200 if I needed pinpoint imaging or a very different way of loading the room.  From what I have read, and my opinion on the symphonic soundstage, the b200 is more accurate in portraying a section of violins, but more hazy when asked to portray a solo baritone standing halfway stage left.

Just a thought.

[Russell Dawkins]

bdv,why don't you just buy a pair of Visaton drivers, put them on an open baffle (see NoBox on the Visaton site for dimensions) and then listen to that to see if you can live with the Visaton sound. That's a relatively safe investment - an easy sell if you don't like them. If you like them but find yourself wanting more bass, get the bass driver from Visaton and
1) sacrifice 6 dB in sensitivity and get the Visaton crossover or
2) enter full experimenter mode and get a Behringer DCX2496 electronic crossover and another good, cheap, low powered amp and bi-amp, having got back your 6dB of sensitivity.
amp, for example: http://diyparadise.com/charlize.html
Visaton Nobox (for OB design and specs with 15" OB bass driver):
http://www.visaton.de/english/uebersicht/6_89_u.html
click on "details"
Russell, across the water in Victoria

[Gordy]

A member here, JLM, has nothing but raves for this speaker system... http://www.geocities.com/rbrines1/Pages/FTA-2000/Main.html and see the driver here... http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=4943822.16198&pid=319

I believe he's using the Teac to drive them...

[J@ck]

Hi ooheadoo
Would you share your B200 setup photos with us? I would love to see how you put it in the corner.



Hi beatdownvictim
I had the same dilemma before I bought my MG12s.

Visaton B200 is an amazing driver at a great price. With the “No Box BB” design (2x 8” B200, 2x15” woofer) and an active crossover I think it is one of the most "bang for your buck" speaker you can buy.

The reason I picked Magnepan was just pure luck. I found a 2 month old mint pair for a 2nd hand price. Otherwise I might buy the Visaton setup because I got all few flea power tube amps that these fullrange speakers love.
I have no regret and enjoy the MG12s immensely.

I feel your amp is not driving them properly. If you are interested, DIY Cable is offering a $500 UcD stereo amp kit. It will drive the Maggies well. And even if you don’t like it, you won’t get much hit when you selling those. Or if you can, find a second hand JVC RX-F10S.

Also you should try to modify the crossover of the MG12. I have just changed the 50uf capacitor for the woofer, it was a huge improvement. It is almost like added a small subwoofer, with fast and tight bass.

You cannot go wrong either ways. Enjoy.

[JLM]

Gordy is right, I own and love my FTA-2000 (and should as I commissioned the first pair).  So take my comments with a grain of salt.

The FTA-2000 is unique in my experience in that in room they're flat to under 30 Hz while rated up to 20,000 Hz, all from a single driver.  They're large/heavy floorstanders that use transmission line loading and a compensation circuit.  Most extended range drivers are quite efficient, but the F-200 driver is only rated at 90 dB/w/m (89 dB/w/m in the FTA-2000 with the compensation circuit).  But no one should feel the want to add a sub for music with these speakers.  I'm a speaker guy and so as I assembled a new system I made my first priority the theoretically ideal speaker.  For my wants the FTA-2000 is the answer IMO.

Like any 8 inch driver that doesn't have a whizzer cone, the highs beam (should be the same for the B200).  Although I still hear 16,000 Hz plus, the beaming is not objectionable to me as critical listening should be done from a location that it isn't noticable to me.

The B200 is much more efficient than the F-200, but is specified to have less frequency range on both ends.  The B200 also has a much higher Qts, making it better suited for open baffles.  And according to others the B200 is more musical, while costing about half as much.  I haven't seen the B200, but reportedly is well built, OTOH the F-200 is built like a tank.  IMO any application of the B200 as strictly a single driver speaker requires at least an equalizer or an enclosed cabinet, like the A8 to provide an acceptable amount of bass.  Even then a subwoofer or the like is also needed to match the bass output of the FTA-2000.

I'm using a Red Wine Audio Clari-T to power the FTA-2000s, but own a stock Teac A-L700P.  The number support the fact that the Clari-T is underpowered, but it sounds great.  I've tried the Teac, but without another volume control in the system, using it was a PITA.  The very brief experience with the Teac really transformed the FTA-2000s from polite dinner party guests into NFL linebackers.  It reminded me instantly of why I've loved and promoted transmission line designs for over 25 years.  Within the next few weeks I should have a new volume control in the system and can break-in/compare the Clari-T with the stock Teac.

The cost of a stock Clari-T and Red Wine Audio fully modded Teac are about the same, but the Clari-T is supposed to sound a bit better.  The difference in output happens to be the same as the difference in efficiency of the B200 and F-200.  By the time you add an equalizer and subwoofer the total cost would be about the same.  But wanting the ideal speaker to start with, I'm staying with my babies.

[mcgsxr]

Well BDV, you are on your way, to an interesting discovery, I will bet.

You have discovered the Teac, and like the basic, and modded sound - so do I.

You have some speakers that you historically have enjoyed, but now are not sure of - so did I - in my case, 4 ohm, 86db Totem Rokk's in gorgeous mahogany.

You are wondering what else is out there, and how it might blend with the Teac, and you have noticed the Visaton b200.  So did I.

Now, I don't like posting in one manufacturer's thread, about another manufacturer's product, but given the established business relationship between Vinnie and Louis, I will say this - please go read the enormous thread about Visatons on the open baffle, to be found in the Red Wine Audio Circle.  There are 30+ pages of folks posting about somewhat similar concerns as yours.

And, in the end, the drivers are good - good enough that I use them in my own DIY open baffles, and good enough that Louis now offers a speaker based on them - his A8's.

JLM and I are on opposite sides in this case - I have never held one of the drivers that his speakers are built off, but have a pair of the Visatons - good god, they are robust drivers - nice cast alu basket, hemp cone, no whizzer etc.  Survived plenty of volume bursts at my hands, and more than once my 2 year old daughter has stuffed her fist into one, bottoming it out totally...

Now, I would love to hear those speakers that JLM has, cause I have to agree that the open baffles I have, using the b200's don't do bass - but, I also have to admit, that I am a confirmed bass junkie, so what bass they have, might do the trick for you...

Have a long read, and consider getting a set of the drivers - they can be found from Solen in Quebec, so you need not worry about cross border shopping (if that is a concern for you) - and have a look at the silly things that I built.

They sound so good, that I have not touched them since.

I have moved onto building up other speakers for the HT - in fact, I am now putting the final coat of paint on my new open baffle center channel, using some of the FR125's that CSS sells...

So, if the dipole sound floats your boat, then build up a set of the open baffles as I have.  If you want some excellent boxes, try the A8's.  

I love the Visatons, and am using them raw - no EQ, no Xover, nothing but amp to driver.  Amazing.

Once the need for attractive speakers becomes more pressing (since the basement is presently unfiinshed, only myself, my daugher, and the cat go there now!) I will likely build up a set of the aperiodic type floorstanders, but for now, the Visatons are getting the job done, and have not failed to amaze all that have heard them.

Good luck, there is a ton of great options out there!

[Louis O]

Hi Mark,

I agree about the B200 and all the amazing things that are posted about them. I liked them so much on first listen that I wanted to create speakers using them, The A8s. I've heard so many drivers and this one is has immediacy, dynamics and amazing speed that I like so much. The OB is a great way to go and this is something that I will get done via a 1.5 way system. It will be ready in the beginning of the New Year.

By the way, they only speakers other than mine that I own are Maggie’s.

Thanks again,
Louis

[ooheadsoo]

Hi ooheadoo
Would you share your B200 setup photos with us? I would love to see how you put it in the corner.

My setup is hardly ideal, but we have to make do with what we have.



Since this is in the Omega forums, I think I should say that for more setup flexibility, go with the A8

[beatdownvictim]

HOLY CRAP! that's really damn cool, i thought i'd see some wild stuff with an open baffle, but man, insane.  INSANE!  Am i the one that's insane, because everywhere i go, my magnepans tell me not to sell em.  I see something in the middle of the room that reminds me of magnepans that big beige'ish fabric.  

I do find it striking how many B200/A8 users were once Maggie owners.  It really can't be a coincident can it be?

Startling.  I guess it's my time to move on from the Magnepans.

[JLM]

The shape open baffles can be built to is limited mostly be imagination.  Are you a surfer dude? (Seen them shaped like surf boards.)  Someone from the Chicago Audio Club had a pair shaped like round top cemetry headstones (not my favorite).  

And baffles don't have to be flat.  (Several examples can be found on the net where side wings/top are added.)  The ideal is to maximize the distance of the edges of the baffle from the driver (to maximize the bass it produces) and to vary the edge distances too (to spread out the step off of the baffle effect across a wider frequency range).  But practically open baffles need EQ/sub help anyway so these are probably more theoretical than practical concerns.

Placing them in the corner of the room as ooheadsoo has done begins to turn the open baffle into infinite baffles.  In his case I don't see the rear open air volume (10 x Vas) needed to be thought of as infinite baffles but I'm sure the added wall/ceiling surfaces help with the bass response.  Infinite baffles are most popular when used for deep bass applications as depth of imaging and the whole dipole effect are lost.  Side hinging them as he has done should allow adjustment to the image width.

[ooheadsoo]

I thought infinite baffles were supposed to be sealed.  I was thinking about moving the baffle perhaps 6 inches off of the ceiling to allow more back wave to escape.  I don't think bass would be hurt significantly.

[JLM]

ooheadsoo,

You're right, I.B.'s would be sealed.  That's why I wrote, "begins to turn the open baffles into infinite baffles."

Open baffles are a tweakers dream (or nightmare if you can't stop), so go ahead the try to lower them.

[polishpowerlifter]

Hey guys !!! Oh yes very cool pic of the OBs in the corners.
Now a bunch of you may be wondering why i sold my A8s  and so forth ...let me just  re-emphasize its not a reflection of what the speaker  did or does but  what my future plans are.Like i mentioned before I will be building or having built floorstanders in the new year and going back to a tripath amp  with a SB 2-3 set up.As we all do we switch  components to test out new things.
In thinking back to the A8s.

Mr Beat down,

Louis makes the best cabinets /set up out there so its wise to go with the Aperiodic design(just make sure you get  your choice of colors LOL). i have been going back to my original system although pleasant and favorable is not quite  the same as the ClariT/A8 set up as far as definition/clarity....but it suits my overall needs right now with rythym,pace and imaging for all my listening needs.

What i have learned from the A8s remains in the back of my mind,I know where i will be going in the future with the hemp or a8.

Bottom line is the visaton is an amazing drive.Like I said previously I feel really suited for jazz and classical genres.Let me again say that if thats is your main listening interests I would really  consider try them out.

Currently i dont have time to get to into my future system building around the  b200s or hemps as I am awaiting shoulder surgury and will be on rehab  for approx 6 months so hobbies will be  put on hold.
I know we'll see some interesting developments from Louis and Vinnie and others in the near future.Louis I am sure is always out doing himself with better improved great products.

Louis and Vinnie are class acts so I would never hesitate to business with them or consult them.

I will be doing  more  with them in the future.Any A8 questions please feel free and  pm  me.

[lonewolfny42]

Mark,

Good luck with your surgery.....
[/list:u]
Chris[/list:u]