[marvda1]

not trying to be smart, but if you can improve on someone else's product(s), why don't you design and build your own models for sell ?

Just curious.

[SET Man]

Hi marvda1,

    As a DIYer/Modder I sometime wish I could do that.... especially my own speaker creations Modding audio could be simple as changing a cap or two and the end result could be very rewarding. Hey! if you could swing those soldering iron than why not try to improve someting?

    But is take alot to manufature a product to sell to the masses. You need time, money, luck and little help from friends That's why I really admire those who really do have products to sell in this very competive Hi-End world of audio. Those like Ed Schilling of Horn Shoppe, Louis of Omega, Vinnie  of Red Wind Audio and etc. These people are little guys in an audio world. But I'm sure they are all started building stuffs for themself in a kitchen table or a garage, than say or their friends say "Hey! that sounds great. I think I could sell this!"

    Well, bakc to the subject.... the other way to look at this is. There are a lot of car buffs out there who mod/enhance thier cars to the point  were the car performs better than new from factory. But! how many of them acturally could build a car from scratch.

    And that is why there are market for audio accesorries/tweaking devices.... as you know some are $$$$$ and some sound like a mumbo jumbo stuffs for those who can't or own open the cover of their amps.

   Anyway, you might want to give it a try. Have you ever ask yourself "Hmmm... maybe I could make _________ sound a bit better?" Hey! is sure beat buying whole new component very year or 6 months.

Take care,
Buddy

[BobM]

Take a look at the historical postings here, at Jim Hagerman's blog:
http://www.hagtech.com/blog.html

Once you read what he went through to design and build his new HagDAC you won't be asking the question anymore.

It's a lot of work, there's a lot more to it than just replacing parts, then there's the parts sourcing and cost controls, then there's the competition and uncertainty of sales revenue to recoup time and effort and prototyping.
Oh yeah, then there's the years of experience and trial and effort that got you there in the first place.

Enjoy,
Bob

[audioengr]

I am actually.  I have a new Off-Ramp I2S, a DAC and a preamp in the works, all custom.  But I probably wouldn't be doing it if I could get the same performance and features from modding someone elses component.

However, you must understand that getting to market quickly with great sounding gear is a monumental task and very expensive.  Much easier and less costly to do with mods to someone elses gear. Also, if a particular mod is not popular, you just do another one.  With a product, if it is not popular and does not sell, you are stuck with huge losses.  The risk is much lower with mods.


Steve N.

[JLM]

One disadvantage of the modders is model changes.  If you've built your business on modding a particular CD player for instance and it becomes discontinued, you have to start over with the R & D effort (unless your mods are pretty mindless (one size fits all).

[audioengr]

One disadvantage of the modders is model changes.  If you've built your business on modding a particular CD player for instance and it becomes discontinued, you have to start over with the R & D effort (unless your mods are pretty mindless (one size fits all).

Or you are smart enough to adapt the mods to each new design.  It only takes a couple of hours to reverse-engineer most audio gear.  If the deficiencies are similar in most gear (they are), then the nature of the mods is basically the same, its only the implementation that is different.

[Bill Baker]

I am actually also. Over the past few years of modifying several tube amp products, I have learned of their pros and cons in terms of design. Taking all this in over the years yields many concepts that I have been able to integrate into some of my own designs.

 My biggest project (that I am still perfecting) are 300B mono blocs. You can learn alot from other's mistakes as well as their highlights. Prototyping this project has cost me a small fortune (for me anyway) as I do not have a multi-million dollar R&D budget.  I will not release these till I am 110% satisfied. I am almost there.

 The same goes for our Bella speakers. While most of the "design" can be contributed to Bob at SP Tech, I have incorperated many new ideas I have gathered over the years of modifying speakers. The Bella speakers are much more unique than most realize.

 I am also working on a preamp that I hope to have out first quarter next year. I have the circuit design already finalized but we lost [dropped] our chassis manufacturer due to inconsistencies with over seas quality control and communication hell. I am now working with a group less than 2 miles away from me!!

 Source components....... no thanks. I'll leave that up to somebody else.

 I would say 60% of my business is still custom modification work and yes, if you've built your business on modding a particular product and it becomes discontinued, you have to start over with the R & D effort which I have done a few times now. Even modification R&D can be expensive as it is similar to designing products from scratch. You still throw a lot of stuff away when prototyping passive components. Just because a passive component is "claimed" to be the best, it is not suitable for all applications.

[Jon L]

SET Man, I love Emiliana Torrini also.  Her music, too  Before this thread gets too serious, here's Emiliana!

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/193/emilianatorrini4oo.jpg" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" />

[SET Man]

SET Man, I love Emiliana Torrini also.  Her music, too  Before this thread gets too serious, here's Emiliana!

Jon,

   Nice to know that there are other who like her and her music.   Her first album is one of my all time favorite. Sadly it did not hit it big here when it first came out couple years ago.  

   Hey! Jon, nice set up you've got there. I'm sure Emiliana's  would sound good there

Take care,
Buddy

[jeffreybehr]

"...if you can improve on someone else's product(s), why don't you design and build your own models for sell?"

My answer is: 1.  I don't KNOW how to design equipment.  2.  I know something about improving parts quality.  Every component is designed and built with a budget for parts, but my budget for a few better parts may be 10 times what the designer's was.  It's easy to find, for instance, better-souding capacitors.  3.  I have no intererest in getting back into the hi-end-audio business.  Being a dealer in the '80s was plenty 'nough for me.

[skrivis]

I am actually.  I have a new Off-Ramp I2S, a DAC and a preamp in the works, all custom.  But I probably wouldn't be doing it if I could get the same performance and features from modding someone elses component.

However, you must understand that getting to market quickly with great sounding gear is a monumental task and very expensive.  Much easier and less costly to do with mods to someone elses gear. Also, if a particular mod is not popular, you just do another one.  With a product, if it is not popula ...

Ok, that makes a lot of sense. I guess I was initially skeptical because of some of the modders I've talked to in the past.

Thanks for the very clear and concise explanation.

[skrivis]

"...if you can improve on someone else's product(s), why don't you design and build your own models for sell?"

My answer is: 1.  I don't KNOW how to design equipment.  2.  I know something about improving parts quality.  Every component is designed and built with a budget for parts, but my budget for a few better parts may be 10 times what the designer's was.  It's easy to find, for instance, better-souding capacitors.  3.  I have no intererest in getting back into the hi-end-audio business.  Being a dealer in the '80s was plenty 'nough for me.

This is where I start to question things.

If you don't know why the designer used a part originally, how do you know that the one you're putting in is better?

Using the right part for the application is going to produce better results, and I'm sure there _are_ times when cost makes the use of the right part uneconomical. But better parts may not always be more expensive, and more expensive ones aren't always better.

Are some capacitors really "better sounding?" Doesn't it depend upon where and how they're used? I don't think you can make a blanket statement that brand X caps are better sounding.

I'd think that a modder has to be as good or better at engineering than the original designer. Steve has shown me he has something to offer, but I'm not sure I can say the same for other modders.

[ctviggen]

I disagree with this.  For instance, here's a thread that talks about a digital crossover:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=5cd5e05571ad3738125ba4389d0fbc84&threadid=15943

In this thread, there are many ideas about how to improve this crossover.  However, most of these ideas only discuss certain sections of the crossover.  Virtually none (or none) discuss changing the progamming of the DSP/processor chips.  Thus, a modder could go in and change the power supply, opamps, DAC/ADC, and other sections of the device and provide a potentially substantial improvement.  But very few modders could tell you exactly how the entire device, including processor operates.  That doesn't mean that modders can't improve the device.  Further, many designs are based on price.  A designer of the device simply has to make cuts; he or she realizes that a part that costs the manufacturer X will cause an increase in price of the device of typically 4X.  One cannot start sticking in $5 caps in place of $0.50 caps without having a device blow by the designed cost.  A modder, on the other hand, does exactly this to improve the sound and quality.  Finally, there are areas, like power supplies, where a modder can make tremendous improvements for not a lot of money.

[Bill Baker]

If you don't know why the designer used a part originally, how do you know that the one you're putting in is better?

Sometimes you simply don't know. Most times you can judge the quality of a part, especially in "budget" gear. For instance, most budget gear may have a lesser quality volume pot in it. These pots have a tendency to become unbalance cause a channel imbalance. Simply replacing this with a better quality unit will yield justifyable results. But, this is only the beginning as this is not modifying, this is upgrading inferior parts.

 

But better parts may not always be more expensive, and more expensive ones aren't always better.  

 This one sentence says it all. Sometimes the most unorthodox combination of components yields the best results. Pricing aside.

Are some capacitors really "better sounding?"

Yes, some simply are.

Doesn't it depend upon where and how they're used?

Absolutely

 

I don't think you can make a blanket statement that brand X caps are better sounding.

Correct again.

I'd think that a modder has to be as good or better at engineering than the original designer. Steve has shown me he has something to offer, but I'm not sure I can say the same for other modders.

 Yes, a modder does have to understand the products he/she is working on. Also keep in mind that like a manufacturer, many moders have a "house" or "signature" sound and must know how to obtain the sound they are seeking.

Another very big issue that I always try to get consumers to realise is this:
 If you are not happy with or do not like the product you have, modifications are not going to turn it into something it is not. If you are satisfied with a particular product but reallize there is more hidden potential within, then modifications are to be considered.

 I have talked many people out of having a product modified simply because they just didn't like it and had the wrong idea of what they would be getting with mods. You MUST at least be happy with your product before considering taking it further. If not, get rid of it and find something more to your liking.

[audiojerry]

good discussion, but why is it in Critic's Circle?

PS: Emiliana sure is a beauty. Is she available for audition?

[jeffreybehr]

Bill Baker: "I have talked many people out of having a product modified simply because they just didn't like it and had the wrong idea of what they would be getting with mods. You MUST at least be happy with your product before considering taking it further."

I already knew Bill was a goodguy, but my respect for him just went up a notch.  I too tell people that.  Bill has miles more experience and knowledge than I, but I agree that upgrades of caps, resistors, pots, wiring, bindingposts, etc., do NOT change the basic character of the device.  But if you love the basic character of the piece, modifying it can improve on its positive aspects AND reduce its negative aspects.  Actively bi- or triamping is a good example of this.  I wrote the other day that only if one loves the overall sound of one's speakers AND the amp one will be using for the midrange should one bother with the expense and hassle.

I repeat my belief that almost-no piecs of hi-end-audio gear are built absolutely as well as the designer knows how.  Parts quality generally follows the steeply climbing curves of diminishing returns.  Bill and I recently exchanged notes about premium-quality caps.  Bill seems to love the V-Cap TFTFs, which I've never heard and which are about as expensive as I've even seen.   I love my ASL 805 SET amps, but how expensive would they have been if ASL had installed $224 (retail) of V-Caps instead of the perhaps-$2 of film caps they used for the 0.47µF coupler?  They'd have been $1000 - $1500 more expensive, and probably I would not have bought them.

Modists can indeed improve the sound quality of the pieces they work on, and they don't have to have the knowledge required to design it from the start.

[audioengr]

Capacitors are a big part of modding and a big part of making a successful product as well.  Knowing what types to use where is critical, as well as which ones are the best sounding.  I too am a fan of V-Caps, when used in the right situations.

Black Gates got a black eye in the past because someone used them for signal coupling rather than power decoupling.  These are radically different situations and require different types of caps.  As power decouplers they simply can't be beat.  As signal couplers, they are mediocre at best.  A bit better than the average electrolytic.  For larger values in a crossover, they cannot be beat either.  It's a shame that they are no longer manufactured.  The modders that stocked-up on these have a competitive edge IMO.