[Nick B]

Wow, Mr Silversmith charges lots of $$ for his cables. That article is a good example of why I didn't become an engineer....I had trouble staying awake reading it. So if I get this right, if it can't be measured, it doesn't exist. Ok, that makes my life a lot easier. Gotta run to Home Depot now and buy some zip cord.

[Marbles]

[Silversmith Audio]
3. The changes caused by cryo treatment of a conductor will audibly change signal transfer.


[Silversmith Audio]
There are several changes that can be measured in a cryo treated metal.  Plug one of them in to the proper transmission line equation, and, well, it becomes obvious.  In fact, that parameter is also one of the reasons why my palladium alloy outperforms silver, copper, aluminum, gold, etc.

----------------------------------
Seems pretty obvious to me and my ears, as always Dan, your ears are different...

[ScottMayo]

......Why is why I deal them now. You know my take on this kind of thing - there is no WAY I sell anything that I don't believe works as advertised. ...

Do you ever get tired of shilling for yourself?

1. Not really. I'm running a business. It's fun, try it. I don't call this shilling, though. The Sonicrock is about something quite different than shilling product. It's an entirely new concept, almost. Are you familiar with it?

2. If not, and to show I'm an alright guy, I will check with Nathan (the manufacturer), and if he's ok with doing a promotional, I will *send* you a Sonicrock, absolutely free of charge. I only ask that you write up some kind of a review on it, here. If interested, PM me with your mailing address.

3. Speaking of shilling, did you like the interview d.b. posted? I found it extremely educational. I never knew that signal delay in wire was so terribly significant to audio. I mean, more important than resistance, wow. Isn't that just mind-blowing?

[Scott F.]

Well Scott F. I think you may enjoy reading this before rushing to judgement.
          d.b.

http://www.audioholics.com/FAQs/silversmithaudiocables.php

I'm sorry, that article didn't sway my opinion.

[Scott F.]

2. If not, and to show I'm an alright guy, I will check with Nathan (the manufacturer), and if he's ok with doing a promotional, I will *send* you a Sonicrock, absolutely free of charge. I only ask that you write up some kind of a review on it, here. If interested, ...

I appreciate the offer but I'm not interested.

[Dan Banquer]

"I'm sorry, that article didn't sway my opinion."

I wouldn't expect it to, but I thought it would be appropriate to "cloud the issue with facts".

PRAISE THE LORD AND PASS THE SONICROCKS.
                    d.b.

[TheChairGuy]

Dan, you're a bad, tired, old joke waiting for a punchline that will never happen. You're input here at Audio Circle is never constructive - only divisive. Please strongly consider retirement.

ScottMayo, you ARE a schill, the final products of which you and Obsession Audio are schilling for are yet unknown...but time has a wonderful way of realizing and qualifying things. You are also an over-eager, self-aggrandizer and pompous snoot of an Engineer.

None of these things make you more than a trifle nuisance -  but, ye' are what ye' are; please make peace with it.

[ScottMayo]

ScottMayo, you ARE a schill, the final products of which you and Obsession Audio are schilling for are yet unknown.

Thank you for your prognosticatitive input, Oh Amazing Kreskin. Your opinion means a lot to me.

[Steve]

Gentlemen,

     Notice how these gentlemen steered cleared from commenting on the three with PHDs in physics? One would think they would want to at least learn what the PHDs had to say. Afterall, wasn't it scottmayo who stated he was eager to learn.

As a suggestion, why don't you gentlemen learn what the 3 PHDs, from MIT no less?) have to say and report back to us? Be sure to bring us quotes from the PHDs.

1) "So what you are telling me is you have no control over RLC of your cable and it's a function of position by the end user."..
"We never argued cables cannot sound different.  But we will argue that only badly designed cables DO sound different.  Such is the case with many exotic cable vendor designs. Perhaps yours are an exception, but the fact that you don't rely on measurements to govern your cable designs is frightening."

Really? Interesting.
So what are badly designed cables? Are cryod cables suddenly bad? We all want to know. And Who decides what a good cable is?
 
And what about the cable article? Wasn't their conclusion that they didn't think their was any sonic difference between different designs, even esoteric designs? And didn't they have different capacities and inductances. But now, smith is chastised for not keeping tabs on every last pf and calling esoteric designs poor quality?

 First, it makes no sonic difference, then it does when it comes to smith? Otherwise, why belittle smith for not keeping track of the specs?


2) "Most RF Engineers consider anything less than 1GHz DC."

Is this a joke? Even at 5 Khz, wire becomes an antenna and can transfer to another wire, which can easily be measured. Wires, foils have to be kept short even at 500, or even 50 Khz, inductance, capacitance concerns etc, let alone 1 ghz. So RF engineers have lots of concerns, and pay attention alot more than he would have us believe.

3) They don't believe that the copper structure changes during cryoing? All they have to do is look; it is clearly seen in the molecular/crystilline structure.

4) "I note that you mentioned Hawksford.  The equations he derived are absolutely valid equations, well manipulated to provide some interesting relationships."

So what proof does one have that Mr. Hawksford Intentially manipulated?

Pretty stong accusaton for not having met the man.

----------

Lastly, they will never change their position guys, for several reasons.

1) Pride and arrogance?

2) Some, at chat sites and other places, would become the laughing stock of the internet.

3) Grants could dry up. Can one imagine how much money would be lost, not only in audio, but possibly other subjective areas, if their belief was found to be a hoax, or simply an agenda for certain entities?

SCOTT:

What else can we think. If one wants to look, simply look in the "fights" club. You backstep, do the waltz, say one thing and do the exact opposite.
You say you are eager to learn, but again appear to be unwilling to state you will check out what the 3 PHDs in physics have to say.

The only two links you and db have listed are from audioholics. Is that the only source you guys have to present.
 
Your record speaks for itself.

[Dan Banquer]

"Is this a joke? Even at 5 Khz, wire becomes an antenna and can transfer to another wire, which can easily be measured. Wires, foils have to be kept short even at 500, or even 50 Khz, inductance, capacitance concerns etc, let alone 1 ghz. So RF engineers have lots of concerns, and pay attention alot more than he would have us believe. "

And that is primarily due to the typically high input impedance that the wires are terminated into; and you should know that.

"The only two links you and db have listed are from audioholics. Is that the only source you guys have to present. "

It's unfortunate that Audioholics appears to be the only consumer oriented publication that actually presents on a consistent basis articles that are based in sound engineering principles. I really wish more would do the same.
          d.b.

[Steve]

Is this a joke? Even at 5 Khz, wire becomes an antenna and can transfer to another wire, which can easily be measured. Wires, foils have to be kept short even at 500, or even 50 Khz, inductance, capacitance concerns etc, let alone 1 ghz. So RF engineers have lots of concerns, and pay attention alot more than he would have us believe. "

<<"And that is primarily due to the typically high input impedance that the wires are terminated into; and you should know that.">>

 But he didn't specify that did he. And it depends on the frequency, doesn't it. DC is a long way from even 20khz but he sure didn't let on did he. He makes a blanket statement, not mentioning all kinds of variables, and makes it look simple, when it is not. Sure makes the commentator look good though, while making smith look bad. And the general public hasn't a clue what was actually happening. How could they know.

"The only two links you and db have listed are from audioholics. Is that the only source you guys have to present. "

>>"It's unfortunate that Audioholics appears to be the only consumer oriented publication that actually presents on a consistent basis articles that are based in sound engineering principles. I really wish more would do the same.
d.b.">>

If you are so scientific, as you claim, then why are you, and others, avoiding obtaining information from the 3 PHDs in physics (from MIT?) and the other 4 engineers (also from MIT)? You could present it here.

As we both know, engineering has only a basic knowledge physics. So if you are "bound and determined to become cliche free", why don't you contact them, obtain their findings, and obtain more scientific proof from another disipline? Afterall, if their conclusions confirm yours, then you have gained some credibility, right.

[Dan Banquer]

"If you are so scientific, as you claim, then why are you, and others, avoiding obtaining information from the 3 PHDs in physics (from MIT?) and the other 4 engineers (also from MIT)? You could present it here. "

I work with people like that on a daily basis. I show them posts like yours and they do one of two things; they either burst out laughing or they say rather forcefully things like "BULLSHIT."

Should I thank you for the entertainment? O.K. Steve; thanks for the entertainment.
                   d.b.

[Steve]

"If you are so scientific, as you claim, then why are you, and others, avoiding obtaining information from the 3 PHDs in physics (from MIT?) and the other 4 engineers (also from MIT)? You could present it here. "

>>"I work with people like that on a daily basis. I show them posts like yours and they do one of two things; they either burst out laughing or they say rather forcefully things like "BULLSHIT."<<

I see you dodged the offer.  

<<"Should I thank you for the entertainment? O.K. Steve; thanks for the entertainment.">>

I receive no such entertainment from your attitude. There is nothing stopping you from gaining information helpful to us all by contacting the PHDs in Physics (and being scientific), EXCEPT, you have no confidence that your knowledge base will stand. Yet you are pushing something on people you have no confidence in?
So what purpose can you have for continuing to post?

         d.b.

[ScottMayo]

Notice how these gentlemen steered cleared from commenting on the three with PHDs in physics? One would think they would want to at least learn what the PHDs had to say. Afterall, wasn't it scottmayo who stated he was eager to learn.

As a suggestion, why don't you gentlemen learn what the 3 PHDs, from MIT no less?) have to say and report back to us? Be sure to bring us quotes from the PHDs.
...
If you are so scientific, as you claim, then why are you, and others, avoiding obtaining information from the 3 PHDs in physics (from MIT?) and the other 4 engineers (also from MIT)? You could present it here.
...
Scott: You say you are eager to learn, but again appear to be unwilling to state you will check out what the 3 PHDs in physics have to say.

I'm a little lost. Which 3 Ph.D. s are these?

Are these the Ph.D.s of which warnerwh spoke, when he wrote about his $10,000 cable offer?

Because if so, I'm not only eager to learn all about it, but I'm eager to share. Just confirm that you mean the guys warnerwh was telling us about, and I'll bring back the whole story for you. For everyone.

[theborg]

NOTICE

AudioCircle is supposed to be a place where people share their experiences and interests in this hobby. It is free, has no banner ads or Google ads, and is quite tolerant of diverse opinions, language, and so on. We create circles for people that want them, and we have a Town Square where your opinions on the running of the site can be heard. All that is asked of you in return is that you allow other people to use and enjoy the site as well as you. People with an axe to grind don't fit well with this general philosophy, and I'm afraid that recent discussions have led me to the point where it's going to be either put it away, or find somewhere else to wave it around.

Accordingly, Dan Banquer, Scott Mayo, and Steve Sammett have been given a "time-out." Their accounts will be re-enabled in ten days; any further thread derails after that (ie getting threads locked or tossed into the Fight Club or the Wastebin) will result in an immediate and permanent ban. Re-registering under another name in the meantime will have the same result.

I'm sorry if anyone disagrees with this, but I'm sick of it, and I know other people are too.

Your ever-lovin' Borg

[DeanSheen]

I'm sorry if anyone disagrees with this, but I'm sick of it, and I know other people are too.

Yeah, well now maybe we can talk about friggin Cryo.

 

[TheChairGuy]

I wonder if Lee himself would shed any illumination on this issue...now that there is a brief respite from several that might dog him.

I'll chime in here.  I sent in two sets of IC's (Alpha Core and LAT)and my Alpha-Core MI-2 SC's to him to be cryo'ed.  I put them in expecting miracles, I didn't get the feeling that one iota of sound had changed.

I know cryo changes something within, but it didn't result in any perceived betterment.

I bought cryo'ed 12ga. magnet wire from him - I thought it sounded a little worse than the 13ga. magnet wire I had previously for speaker cables. More confused it sounded.  I think, in magnet cables, thinner is better,.....and many various gauges of thin magnet wire is excellent.  One run of thick-ish magnet wire is 'bladdy' sounding (I think I stole that term from Carlman).  So, cryo'ed 12ga was not better than non-cryo'ed 13 ga - to me (as is always the cae, folks   )

I also bought cryo'ed fuses for my Maggies....in replacing the fuses that came with the Maggies I thought I did perceive a slight beterment in the overall signature.

So, my limited experience with cryo is not resoundingly positive.  

I am still interested in experimenting more with cryo tubes - and wouldn't hesistate to use Lee's services again. He was great at communicating, feedback and safe shipment back home.  

I think Lee keeps away from these topics, by and large, so I respect whatever he does on the subject.

[TheChairGuy]

No one is going to add their 2 cents about cryo here - now that we are temporarily free of overtly painful and perennial naysayers?

Bummer - I thought we could have turned this in to a fruitful discourse about the merits of cryo now  

[skrivis]

'Hardy-har-har' skrivis, 'Yuck-yuck' ScottMayo and new cohort, 'Guffaw' bhobba;

I had two very interesting discussions with associates this past year.

My former Biz partner in PA has linked up with an innovative company there and is working with Eveready (batteries) and Norelco.  The company has a process whereby they change the molecular structure of nearly  any material that exists, natural or man-made.  It involves re-configuring atoms and molecules and such well beyond my scope of underst ...

I'm quite aware that in some materials cryo treatment causes changes. Where I get off the boat is when it comes to saying the changes are beneficial or even noticeable.

The vendors I've seen espousing cryo treatment for audio equipment are off in snake oil territory...

So you are completely credulous when it comes to these guys selling tweaks? None of it strikes you as laughable?

You're either a very somber and sober person, or you're a believer.

[skrivis]

Do you ever get tired of shilling for yourself?


.....and for all you self professed 'engineers' that claim cryo treatment does nothing, I think you need to go take a course or two on metallurgy, or at an absolute minimum, a seminar or two on it's benefits. Think of it this way, you can use those towards keeping your stamp up (think CEU's).

It kills me to think that someone with an 'analyitical mind' such as an 'engineer', after learning what cryo treatment does that you don't believe that it will ha ...

Well... I have this green paint, and it changes the color of the outside of your wire. After learning what painting does, how can you not believe that it will have an effect on the sound?

Can you provide any evidence showing that the very real changes cryo treatment makes in some materials actually effects the sound? Going on from there, can you show that cryo treatment is actually beneficial?