[cjr888]

Audiophiles are so fickle and impatient!  We think that a stock $800 list thing can sound like the best in the world, and then when we find out it is not we immediately dump it!  There is a revolution going on.....but to think that a stock Sony with ordinary power supplies, ordinary construction, ordinary parts, too long a signal path on the output, ordinary clocks, etc. can be the magic silver bullet that makes us grin continuously forever is expecting way, way too much.........modified.....well that is an ...

Ric - glad to see that you hopped in the discussion, and just previous to reading your message I was going to inquire to the public if (1) anyone has opened this units up (and if they could take pictures and (2) has anyone considered modifying these units?

I had the same assumption that they are filled with cheap parts, and that maybe through some modifications, even some basic parts swapping vs. trying to eliminate odd design decisions, that subtle improvements could exist.  My primary concern and assumption is that most of the units seem to be relatively slim-line designs, and that if you're including so much in one little box, that there's probably little room to work with.  But seeing the amount of changes and swapping that people have done with units like the ART DI/O, I have to assume that hope is not lost.

Being that people seem pretty amazed and what they get out of these little boxes, but thats obviously not without criticism, I have to wonder what can be done with them from a modification perspective.  They seem like they would be a great target for an 'average' number of modifications as they have a low cost of entry, and if there was a 'bang for the buck' set of modifications, that it could provide improvement, and still function as a great value.  Say you spend $450 on an integrated CD/DVD/SACD/Amplfier/Preamplifier box.  Say you put in $500 and it does provide decent improvement.  You're still under $1k.  

Complete assumptions, but I'm wondering if the clock can be swapped out for great benefit, especially if these units are digital to the end...  I obviously have no idea on the possibility of this, as well as digital/jitter related tests/specifications on these.  And I have to wonder about power supply related stuff, part because of the digital amplifier, and also because if its integrated, I'm guessing that everything is shared, and that final output is beyond mediocre.  I'm guessing what makes the unit special at its price level, is the core, and that everything around it holds it back -- not that it is a giant killer, but that it plus some mods could provide a tremendous value.

Few boxes from 'audiophile' brands can't meet that modified bang-for-the-buck price target with combo CD/IntegratedAmp boxes out the door.  When I say that, I'm thinking of the all-in-one units form Classe' and Linn as example.  If solid improvements can be had, a modder with a staff would have a field day, both for people simplying systems, building 2nd systems for HT, or for people looking to hop into something beyond the bottom of the barrel, but at a price limit...

Still love the Acoustic Reality EAR2 I have and have been impressed with most digital amplifiers out there.  Glad to see it more and more in the consumer market, and hope to see both some more cheap 'amplifier only' digital setups in the pro and consumer market, as well as people taking 'integrated' units much, much further.  This obviously will happen do to power consumption, size, simplicity, and performance.  Even eliminating performance, the benefits are huge from a manufacturer's standpoint, which get passed down to the consumer, even when they're not thinking too much about performance...and a price point.  That always benefits the public...

I try and keep up with this thread, but time doesn't always permit, so if any of these opinions have been covered 10x already, my apologies....

[cjr888]

Integrated Units as a Treatment for Upgradeitis.

Just another suggestion for those that provide modification services:

1.  Take one of these integrated CD/DVD/SACD/IntAmplifier units.
2.  Provide a strong modification package that greatly improves the sound at a 'bank for the buck' cost/performance.[/list:u]Then provide an additional service, called the "Wife Option" or "Insurance against your own addiction", where you:

1.  Either (1) take one of the world's strongest bonding materials and essentially seal the unit shut, and make it literally impossible to open the unit without cutting through the chassis.  (2) create a lock for opening the chassis, that when someone tries to open, pages your shrink and your wide.

2.  Either (1) install it in various 'consoles' as furniture or (2) have an opitional amplifier stand/isolation base for the unit, made out of rediculously heavy material -- say a rediculous amount of corian.  Have the unit connected to the base in some fashion.[/list:u]
You now have an integrated audio unit, in a single box, with a single captive power cord, that provides good performance, takes up little space, does not allow you to add additional boxes or tweak, cannot be opened, and due to the base, is rediculously hard to move, ship, sell, anything.

Think of it as a padded white room for audiophiles, where they are happy, but cannot attempt to further improve this or leave their little white room.

It would not eliminate the addiction, but it might provide audiophiles with treatment.

People have marketed to have audiophile's rooms treated, its now time to treat the audiophile.  

Now partner with a room treatment company like 8th Nerve, and create an advertisement showing a music lover in a straight jacket, with the integrated player, and take about 1000 of the corner 'pillows' for room treatment (in white), and treat the entire room to appear as a well treated audio room/insane asylum padded room.

For $2k you now have good sound, a well treated room, treatment for upgradeitis, and you can listen to music in the padded room that most of us belong in.  

You get help, you save your wallet, and your spouse is happy.  Health insurance might even cover your audio expenses.  If it still won't help, and you still sneakily visit audio stores after the fact, you can be added to a national registry of addicts, and when you enter, the dealer can look at wall of pictures, with you on the most wanted listed, and deny you access to the store.

[smargo]

I just spoke to the tweeter store in wilmington delaware and they are selling the 50 es at $350 and the 70 es at $550 sounds like a great deal. the new units 500 and 700 will be out soon they said but weren't sure when.

just thought i would let everyone know

[enzo]

...have you all seen the Sony review in the new The Audio Critic?

Which issue is this? October? I'd be interested in knowing how many hours they had on the unit. I just spent two hours auditioning the C70 at Commercial Electronics in Vancouver, BC, and I've got to say it sounded very poor indeed. I set it to 2-channel mode with the mains (JM Lab Cobalts) set to "large" and tried various redbook and SACD.

First thing I noticed was the dramatic lack of power, and this in a smallish room. I had it maxed at 46 on the display and it came up mighty short. The mids were very thin and bordering on harsh, but the bass was a strong point, albeit lacking in volume. Overall the unit lacked body, vibrancy, detail, and soundstage depth. Imaging was decent. SACD did sound better than redbook but still thin in the midrange.

Bear in mind that the salesperson thought there were no more than maybe 5 hours of burn-in on this unit, which begs the question:
Is this thing gonna measurably improve THAT MUCH from out of the box? Hard to imagine that being the case... My biggest issue is with the lack of power and thin midrange. I'm really hoping the new units address these issues, but if the post above is correct, the S500 is also rated at 100 into 6 which just won't cut it.

[JLM]

I've been following this thread with great interest.  Here's how I see the near future of audio developing:

1.)  The mass market and serious music lovers will opt for a digital "all in one" to save money/hassles.

2.)  Vinyl will naturally join with tubes and solid state to provide "fully analog based systems".

3.)  Audiophile equipment junkies will go with components as soon as someone invents a "digital pre-amp" to provide systems controls and convert digital source outputs to be digital power amp ready.


Newform Research is already offering to bundle a Panasonic "all in one" HT unit with digital equalizer for $1,000 to provide digital stereo tri-amping with equalization.  When purchased with their speakers they include live help to setup:

http://www.newformresearch.com/updateaug03.htm


jeff

[audiojerry]

Bear in mind that the salesperson thought there were no more than maybe 5 hours of burn-in on this unit, which begs the question:
Is this thing gonna measurably improve THAT MUCH from out of the box? Hard to imagine that being the case

My c70 was basically unlistenable the first few hours.
Much better after 36 hours.
Really good after 72 hours.
Tripped the protection circuit after 100+ hours and couldn't get it to turn back on, so my audition ended before I wanted. Had to take it back to the dealer. I'm miffed - sorry I can't give a final review.

Plan B at this point is to wait until I can get a C700, or ??? just don't know

[_scotty_]

My c70 was basically unlistenable the first few hours.
Much better after 36 hours.
Really good after 72 hours.
Tripped the protection circuit after 100+ hours and couldn't get it to turn back on, so my audition ended before I wanted. Had to take it back to the dealer. I'm miffed - sorry I can't give a final review.

Plan B at this point is to wait until I can get a C700, or ??? just don't know

Hi All,Dmason mentioned the Panasonic XR45 and told me to see the Newform webpage,expert advice AUG.2003. The XR 45 is a digital amp
100wattsx6/6ohms Receiver with digital input for CD playback.The same
machine without DVR in and out capability is the XR25S.The same owners' manual for both machines and same specs.Popping the top showed a single large switching power supply with individual storage caps for each channel,
1000mfd at 50v a Blackgate would easily fit right in the holes as a direct swap.approximately 6inchs of 20ga wire go from the outputs  on this board over to the back panel binding posts.The amp appears to run in bridge mode on all channels as the positve and the negative outputs each have an output filter network present.A total of twelve toroidal coils are
seen on the board consistent with this type of architecture.The nice thing is all the channels are sharing the same switch mode power supply.From a 2ch standpoint that means that if only the front two channels are used there is 2/3 more power supply reserve available to run them.

  I will be testing it with direct digital input from a CD transport via a Stan Warren design Duroptic  toslink connection.I will also test it with a Stan Warren modified MSB LNKDAC analogue input.It has a Philips style detachable power cord that can be replaced with an after market power cord which I will atempt to do.All testing will be done in stock configuration except for power cord. I will let you know how it turns out.
                                                  Scotty

[JackStraw]

My c70 was basically unlistenable the first few hours.
Much better after 36 hours.
Really good after 72 hours.
Tripped the protection circuit after 100+ hours and couldn't get it to turn back on, so my audition ended before I wanted. Had to take it back to the dealer. I'm miffed - sorry I can't give a final review.

Plan B at this point is to wait until I can get a C700, or ??? just don't know

Shoot, Another dud. Sorry to hear about the failure.

I have returned my C70 with DVD playback issues and ordered another C70 from another vendor. We'll see... obviously I'm hoping for better luck with the replacement. I'll be doing a similar comparison to what scotty described.

[Zero]

Edit Post.

If nothing more, this may prove to be a very good piece for the HT experience.

[Rob Babcock]

One reason I don't like stores like that (well, most stores) is that they're full of salesman paid to parrot the party line.  I suspect that the best sounding gear to them is the stuff that gets them the highest commission.

I'm interested to see the next models incorporating the S-Master Pro Chip.  Even more interesting would be down the road if all the higher end receiver mfgrs incorporated digital amps in their models, as well as Firewire or some similar system for SACD/DVD-A.

[jeffjazz]

I was going to wait a week to review this but in the last two days the unit sound has not improved anymore.  I purchased this as a demo last Thursday and have been burning it in with a track of pink noise.   The unit must have been partially burned in at the store since it was a demo.  I have a Conrad Johnson amp & preamp & modded ART DIO dac to compare it.

First the good news.

The low end is very tight and extended.  Listening to Marcus Miller play electric bass was quite an experience.  My other equip. does not approach this low end quality.

I am hearing details in recording that were being masked by the CJ stuff.

It images as good if not better than my CJ stuff.

The bad news.

The midrange is thin.  Acoustic instruments don't have any body to them.  There is very little warmth in the mids.

The high end is too up front for my taste bordering on bright (but I wouldn't call it that) and they have a texture that is artificial.

I remember someone saying that it sounds like a loudness switch was switched on when listening to it. - I agree  

It emphasizes detail over the timbre of instruments, voices, etc.


Just to give a little background on myself to justify my ears.  I am a Berklee College of Music graduate.  Who plays piano/ keyboards professionally.  My love is jazz music (acoustic instruments).  My reference point is from playing live music on a regular basis.  

I know the flaws in my current system since I have lived with it for many years.

In summary the Sony is not for me.  My current system has love designed into it.  There is a certain emotion missing from the Sony.  The Sony is kind of cookie cutter ( I know I'm going to hear it from that statement!).  Certain ingredients in it taste really good but It
doesn't satisfy overall.

I am very excited about this technology though.  It does seem that this is  where the future is going.  Who knows what it would sound like if it is tweaked?  It looks like Sony has improved the AVD-S70 with the new model will have to wait and see.
Disclaimer!!!  - this is only my opinion and components sound different in and with different systems.  

Shameless Promo if anyone is in the Wilmington DE or Philadelphia area and wants to hear some top flight jazz, send me a private message and I'll send you the dates and times.   - Thanks, Jeff  AKA jeffjazz

[8thnerve]

I purchased this as a demo last Thursday and have been burning it in with a track of pink noise.  .

Jeff, this may be part of the problem.  Pink noise is not the best way to burn in a piece completely.  It generally comes off as lean with this method.  Using Brown noise does exactly the opposite, sometimes leaving the equipment too warm.  Try burning it in with some music!

Sorry if you have already mentioned it, but what speaker cables and speakers are you using?

[audiojerry]

Jeffjazz, it's nice to have the input of a serious and talented musician offering his insights. I hope you can stick around and contribute more.
It's seems unusual for a musician placing an emphasis on high resolution sound. I could never figure out why this is the case, though.

So what do you think of fellow alumnus, Dianna Krall?  

It's easy to see why you find the midrange lacking when compared to CJ gear -  that would require a serious adjustment in expectations, but a change in burn-in technique like 8th Nerve suggested may be helpful, as well as an adjustment in expectations.

But it's reassuring to know that a musician with a good ear appreciates  truth in timbre and texture, which is the hallmark of tubed amplification.

[BeeBop]

there is no DSD to PCM conversion, actually it is more likely to be an upsampling of PCM to DSD (this is probably why redbook CD sound so good on this unit). And the switching frequency is the DSD 2.8 MHz and not 768Khz as stated in www.classd.org

Bruno

Would be very grateful if someone could explain what a redbook cd is. I'm afraid I'm pretty much a newbie here.

[Hantra]

Would be very grateful if someone could explain what a redbook cd is

Hey BeeBop!  Everyone is a newbie at some point. . .  Don't sweat it.  Good to have you here regardless if you're new or not.

Nevertheless, a Redbook CD is nothing more than a regular old CD.  People say "Redbook" now pretty much to specify that they are listening to a regular CD as opposed to an SACD, or DVD-A.

Redbook is the name for the book of standards that regular CD's have to adhere to in order to use the "Compact Disc" label.

HTH,

B

[Hantra]

Well. . . I really screwed up when I bought this Sony for downstairs. . .

It's so damned good that I end up listening down here. . .  hehe  I wanted to go to bed, but i thought . . .  it's convenient, I'll just hit one song. . . but I can't stop listening. .  I'm almost all the way through Trey Anastasio's Plasma now. . .  I'll never get to sleep!

[Brad]

Just to change the topic slightly, did anyone else notice an MM phono stage in the specs for the new receivers
The STRDA2000ES and 3000ES?

The 3000 also upconverts video to the component outputs.

Amazon has the Panny '45 receiver for $319, too.



Purty kewl stuff coming out in the digital world.
Thanks for the link to the Newform Research site and their views on the Panny.

Cheers from Houston.

[Rob Babcock]

J&R has the panny '45 for $299...

[kendrid]

Just to change the topic slightly, did anyone else notice an MM phono stage in the specs for the new receivers
The STRDA2000ES and 3000ES?

The 3000 also upconverts video to the component outputs.
Cheers from Houston.

The 1000ES and up state that they have: "Phono Input (MM Type)", according to onecall.  I never noticed the input on my 3000es, but it is probably there.

The video upconversion on the 3000ES works well,  It does not make the picture any better, but it is convenient.

[Monolith]

J&R has the panny '45 for $299...

Link to owner's manual:

http://media-server.amazon.com/media/mole/MANUAL000017536.pdf