Sony's new ES Line All-In-One (Digital Power)

BrunoB · « **Reply #280 on:** 26 Sep 2003, 04:11 pm »

Here are the specs of the upcoming AVD-S500ES :

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Single Disc DVD/SACD?/CD Receiver with Precision Cinema Progressive Scan output
6 Channel Power Rating:
100 Watts Per Channel X 6, all channels driven 6 ohms, 20-20,000Hz, THD 0.7%
Stereo Power Rating:
100 Watts Per Channel X 2, 6 ohms 20 Hz-20 kHz, THD 0.7%
12 Bit Video DAC with 108 MHz Processing
Full Digital Drive Amplifier
CD-R/RW, Super Audio CD (multi), MP3 playback
Dolby® Digital, dts®, Dolby Digital EX, dts-ES, and Dolby® Pro-Logic II Decoding
Component video and S-Video Outputs
Screw Type Speaker Terminals
2 Optical/1 Coaxial Digital Input for Satellite TV, etc.
1 Optical Digital Output
Tuner with 20 FM + 10 AM Station presets
Digital Cinema Sound?
3 A/V INPUTS, 1 A/V Output (w/ S-Video)
Pre-Programmed A/V Remote Commander® Remote Control

FEATURES
DVD/SACD/CD Capacity : 1-DVD/SACD/CD player
Progressive Scan Output (480 P)
Stereo Mode (2 Channel): : 100 Watts Per Channel x2
6 Ohms
20-20kHz, 0.7% THD
Multi-Channel Mode (6 Channels), all channels driven: : 100 Watts Per Channel X 6
6 Ohms
20-20kHz, 0.7% THD
Dolby Digital, dts, Dolby Digital EX, dts-ES, Dolby Pro Logic,Dolby Pro Logic II Decoding
Digital Cinema Sound
MP3 Playback
CD-R & CD-RW Playback
DVD/CD/SACD Text
INPUT Function DVD/(SACD/CD)/VIDEO 1/VIDEO 2/VIDEO3/TUNER
On Screen Display (OSD)
Play Modes (Shuffle/Program/Repeat)
Headphone jack 3.5 mm Mini Pin
Audio LINE IN/OUT (Analog) : 3/1
Audio LINE IN/OUT (Digital) : 2 Optical 1 Coaxial/1 Optical
Video Signal IN/OUT : 3/2 (3 S-Video In/2 S-Video Outs/1 Component Output)
Power Save Mode
Station presets : 30 Total (20 FM/ 10 AM)

SPECIFICATIONS
INPUTS/OUTPUTS
Video DA Converter (10 bit)
Audio DA Converter (1 bit)
FM Tuning Range : 87.5 - 108 MHz
AM Tuning Range : 530 - 1710 kHz
Unit Dimensions & Weights
Metric & Non (W X H X D) : Main Unit: 16.9" X 3.8" X 17.8" (430 X 98 X 453 mm)
Remote Commander : RM-SP50

WEIGHT
Main Unit: 19.7 LBS (16.5 KG)
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JackStraw · « **Reply #281 on:** 26 Sep 2003, 04:53 pm »

Quote from: Dmason

I ordered from M Audio an optical-coaxial digital convertor, so as to use the digital out with a Scott Nixon DAC, and back in to the AUX analogue inputs, is going to make this a little monster. It is currently powering a pair of Usher X 719 monitors, this combo, my Little Dog system, -though neither components are quite broken in, will CRUSH many high end comers, and I have owned a long line of outstanding and expensive components over the years.

Did this work out? I don't see a way to play a disk while listening to another input.

sharper · « **Reply #282 on:** 26 Sep 2003, 06:39 pm »

Thanks BrunoB for the specs on the S500ES. Looks pretty much the same as the 50ES except for the 6th channel and the S-Master Pro. Still no component input. Would you have the specs on the 700ES or a link to them?

kent · « **Reply #283 on:** 26 Sep 2003, 09:02 pm »

Quote from: sharper

Thanks BrunoB for the specs on the S500ES. Looks pretty much the same as the 50ES except for the 6th channel and the S-Master Pro.

Actually, the specs BrunoB posted don't mention the S-Master Pro anywhere. The amplifier is described only as "Digital Drive", which is the phrase Sony chose to describe the 2nd generation S-Master chipset (see my post on the previous page). Sony is hopefully just being sloppy, but the "Digital Drive" appellation gives me some pause. Elsewhere in press releases I believe they've specified S-Master Pro for this line, but definitely not here. ...

Kent

sharper · « **Reply #284 on:** 26 Sep 2003, 09:27 pm »

According to an email reply I received from One Call, their expecting the new AVDs in mid-late October. I was hoping they'd be in next week.

BrunoB · « **Reply #285 on:** 26 Sep 2003, 09:48 pm »

Quote from: sharper

Thanks BrunoB for the specs on the S500ES. Looks pretty much the same as the 50ES except for the 6th channel and the S-Master Pro. Still no component input. Would you have the specs on the 700ES or a link to them?

I received the specs from Oade by Email a few weeks ago. I did not ask for the AVD-700ES.

Quote

Actually, the specs BrunoB posted don't mention the S-Master Pro anywhere. The amplifier is described only as "Digital Drive", which is the phrase Sony chose to describe the 2nd generation S-Master chipset (see my post on the previous page). Sony is hopefully just being sloppy, but the "Digital Drive" appellation gives me some pause. Elsewhere in press releases I believe they've specified S-Master Pro for this line, but definitely not here. ...

I hope these are S-Master Pro too. If you look at the frequency responses, they all end at 20KHz. This fact reminds me the DSD to PCM conversion discussed by Ric in this thread: a DSD signal can be much more extended - 50 KHz or more. This gives me some pause.

_scotty_ · « **Reply #286 on:** 27 Sep 2003, 02:53 pm »

Quote from: BrunoB

I hope these are S-Master Pro too. If you look at the frequency responses, they all end at 20KHz. This fact reminds me the DSD to PCM conversion discussed by Ric in this thread: a DSD signal can be much more extended - 50 KHz or more. This gives me some pause.

A Digital amp always shows a decreasing signal to noise ratio above 20kHz
as does the SACD medium.A combination of these two factors added together would not look good in advertising copy.While musical instruments do have harmonic overtone series above 20kHZ extending to perhaps 35kHz these Ultrasonic signals are 25db to 35db down from the fundamental tone and approaching the miserable digital S/N ratio at these frequencies. The effect is to render discussions about the extended frequency response of the SACD format pointless.

Zero · « **Reply #287 on:** 27 Sep 2003, 04:02 pm »

I am about to bite the bullet on the integrated all in one "wonder" sony unit.

I am curious however, Sony also has the ES STR-DA5000ES, which seems to be tempting as well. The question here is;

Will I loose quality due to the analog conversion from the cd player to the reciever? I planned on purchasing the C.E.C 3000 cd player.

Also, I am using 4 ohm speakers, not 6. Will this have any detramental effect to the digital amplifier?

Thanks

Z

KevinW · « **Reply #288 on:** 27 Sep 2003, 04:11 pm »

Quote from: _scotty_

A Digital amp always shows a decreasing signal to noise ratio above 20kHz
as does the SACD medium.A combination of these two factors added together would not look good in advertising copy.While musical instruments do have harmonic overtone series above 20kHZ extending to perhaps 35kHz these Ultrasonic signals are 25db to 35db down from the fundamental tone and approaching the miserable digital S/N ratio at these frequencies. The effect is to render discussions about the extended frequency response of the SACD format pointless.

I disagree that signals outside the audible range are not important. In fact the behavior of an amp from 20kHz up to 100kHz or more can be crucial to how good it sounds. I've tested this, and proven it to my ears quite emphatically.

Why does this matter? Well a pole above 20kHz causes phase shifts in lower frequencies, and this can be very audible to the most sensitive phase shift measuring device ever invented (our ears). This has the overall effect of robbing the emotional impact of the music, something that is very hard to measure with electronic instruments. This effect can happen even if the signal is 50dB down or more at the pole. Sounds freaky, and feel free to disbelieve if you want. I'm a believer through experience.

audiojerry · « **Reply #289 on:** 27 Sep 2003, 05:17 pm »

_Scotty_ wrote:

Quote

A Digital amp always shows a decreasing signal to noise ratio above 20kHz
as does the SACD medium.A combination of these two factors added together would not look good in advertising copy.While musical instruments do have harmonic overtone series above 20kHZ extending to perhaps 35kHz these Ultrasonic signals are 25db to 35db down from the fundamental tone and approaching the miserable digital S/N ratio at these frequencies. The effect is to render discussions about the extended frequency response of the SACD format pointless.

Quote from: KevinW

I disagree that signals outside the audible range are not important. In fact the behavior of an amp from 20kHz up to 100kHz or more can be crucial to how good it sounds.

Kevin, I think you might be misunderstanding Scotty's point. I think Scotty is trying reinforce Bruno's excellent point that perhaps the SACD medium, and Sony's limited HF response in its new amps is a cause for concern.

As nice as the C70 sounds, the resolution and spaciousness that I am accustomed to from my system is definitely missing with the C70. What do you think?

Bruno and Scotty might have nailed the problem with his observation. Thanks Bruno and Scotty.

BrunoB · « **Reply #290 on:** 27 Sep 2003, 06:13 pm »

I ordered my Sony AVD-S50ES after reading the
Stereophile Sharp digital amplifier review. That was in January, long before this thread became very hot. According to the reviewer, the 1 bit amplifier sounded amazing.
My problem was that the Sharp was a $15K amp. I started dreaming: the sharp technology is 1 bit PWM at 2.8GHz, somehow similar to Sony's S-Master. And the Sony costed only $500

. I had to buy it. And I did.

Today, I looked back at the reviewer's sonic description and I wonder how close the Sony (and other affordable digital amps) would sound if compared to the Sharp? What do you guys think about the Sharp sonic description when compared to your Sony?

The review presents a lot of measurements (noise levels, distortions, frequency responses, ... ) that might add useful information to the discussion.

The Sharp has no DSD to PCM conversion.

Bruno

KevinW · « **Reply #291 on:** 27 Sep 2003, 06:15 pm »

Well perhaps I misunderstand what Scotty is saying about the decreasing signal to noise ration at higher frequencies for Class D amps. Perhaps he can explain the rationale behind this comment.

Regardless of whether one is talking about amps, sources, preamps, cables, speakers, crossovers, etc... a pole is a pole is a pole. Having one somewhere will always cause some kind of delterious effect on the music. Good designers can minimize this to the point of inaudibility. But a high bandwidth frequency response is one good indicator of sound quality even though those frequencies are inaudible to the ears.

I haven't heard the Sony, so I don't want to comment on it.

BrunoB · « **Reply #292 on:** 27 Sep 2003, 06:19 pm »

Quote from: audiojerry

As nice as the C70 sounds, the resolution and spaciousness that I am accustomed to from my system is definitely missing with the C70. What do you think?

Audiojerry, is the lack of resolution and spaciouness specific to SACD?

Bruno

_scotty_ · « **Reply #293 on:** 27 Sep 2003, 11:13 pm »

Quote from: KevinW

Well perhaps I misunderstand what Scotty is saying about the decreasing signal to noise ration at higher frequencies for Class D amps. Perhaps he can explain the rationale behind this comment.

Regardless of whether one is talking about amps, sources, preamps, cables, speakers, crossovers, etc... a pole is a pole is a pole. Having one somewhere will always cause some kind of delterious effect on the music. Good designers can minimize this to the point of inaudibility. But a high bandwidth frequency re ...

Kevin W,you're right about the filter pole and the associated phase shift being a potential problem.Most digital amps have carrier frequencies that are high enough that a simple two pole filter gives adequate attenuation below 30kHz to yield a satisfactory S/N ratio from 20Hz to 20kHz. My Tripath DIY amp has a two pole filter with a corner frequency of 80kHz. With this simple filter at 80 kHz, no audible phase shift issues in the 20kHz and below regions seems to be present. No broadband unweighted S/N measurement
was ever specified. The spec given was A weighted,RL =8ohms,P out 140watts,101db.This is from design sheets and a three pole filter is recommended to keep noise outside the 20kHz upper limit from interfering with the measurement.It is standard practice to measure digital amps THD+N and S/N with filter AES 17 which has a 60db/oct slope above 20kHz.The numbers look better. All digital amps incorporarte a low pass filter to remove the carrier frequency employed in their design.As this filter is is not a brick wall there is a rising noise level with increasing freqency
observed.My amp may have no better than a 50db or 60db S/N level at 35kHz and the SACD medium as typically implimented frequently has an observed S/N ratio at 35kHz of 45db to 60db.When these to factors are added together the noise at the musically relevant frequencies can easily
equal the signal.I confess that my digital amp sounds better than it should given the prescence of the filter on the output. I am content to treat it as a
magic black box.The music goes in and a miracle occurrs and it comes out
big enough to drive a loudspeaker.

As far as the SONY not sounding as spacious as other equipement
this may be directly related to the power supply capacitors high frequency
impedance characteristics.One they may not be all the way broken in and two,they may need to be replaced by Blackgate capacitors if possible.
We are fighting bean counters after all. Sorry for the long post but Kevin W asked for an explanation.

Sounding_Board_Audio · « **Reply #294 on:** 28 Sep 2003, 03:46 am »

I may not have read every post in this thread, but have you all seen the Sony review in the new The Audio Critic? (I realize they can be peculiar.)

It's extremely negative, and I must admit when people talk about new products being insanely great I am instantly skeptical. Is it limerence? Everyone likes to be the discoverer of new knowledge, even if it's only of a bargain.

Many of the posters here pay for oil filled caps, power cords and vinyl sources over digital, etc., but suddenly a new digital, multi channel amp, pre and multi format disc player all in one with what must be average parts quality is being compared to 20k systems.

Oh well. Times change. But not usually overnight, and with orders of magnitude price advantages.

Anyway, for my current shopping I want 2 channel, 2 pairs of stereo speakers capability and pre outs for a non HT sub in a quality unit. That's a Creek or Arcam or special order YBA integrateds, or a music Linn Classik. (The NAD all in one is a bit beneath these.)

At the same time, there is a revolution. I've read most of this thread with interest, despite my skepticism.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #295 on:** 28 Sep 2003, 03:55 am »

I suppose the skeptic is torn between wanting to believe that a "mid fi" new digital reciever could take you to Nirvana and fearing that it might be so (and that all the stuff you've known is wrong).

I'm anxious to find out.

audiojerry · « **Reply #296 on:** 28 Sep 2003, 05:06 am »

Quote

Audiojerry, is the lack of resolution and spaciouness specific to SACD?
Bruno

I don't own any SACD's. I was comparing redbook cd played on the Sony vs. played on my system using the same speakrs and wire.

In and of itself, I would not describe the Sony as lacking resolution and spaciousness; just in comparison to my system.

Jonathan · « **Reply #297 on:** 28 Sep 2003, 05:25 am »

I know, I'm flip-flopping all over the place, but I've decided to sell the C70. It has a huge amount of appeal, and my wife loves it, and she's gonna give me a LOT of grief, but I just find myself missing my old system too much.

My goal in this hobby has always been to try to get the absolute best possible sound, i.e., the most realistic and natural, for the least amount of money invested. At this point, I feel like my original setup (Unico, etc.) is sonically closer to what I'm looking for than the Sony.

So, feel free to see my post over at the Trading Post board, and let me know if you're interested. Thanks,

Jon

Ric Schultz · « **Reply #298 on:** 28 Sep 2003, 05:51 am »

Audiophiles are so fickle and impatient! We think that a stock $800 list thing can sound like the best in the world, and then when we find out it is not we immediately dump it! There is a revolution going on.....but to think that a stock Sony with ordinary power supplies, ordinary construction, ordinary parts, too long a signal path on the output, ordinary clocks, etc. can be the magic silver bullet that makes us grin continuously forever is expecting way, way too much.........modified.....well that is another story.....but that is down the road.....and much more money.

I don't expect the stock Sony S500ES that I will get will equal my modified 963 or soon modified Denon 2900 going directly into my modified Icepower module.....no way.....not stock....not way!!!!

But I do expect that with some serious mods, it might actually be better!!! Yes, I do....Yes, I do.....

We want to run out and buy the latest raved about cheap (this thing is cheap, cheap, cheap) thing and have the latest and best sound? Cheap, means cheap for a reason.....There are no tweak parts or construction in a $800 commercial device.....none....that does not mean that it cannot sound good. I am sure the stock 500Es sounds good....maybe really good. But great.....State of the ART? No way.

Relax, enjoy the ride....Don't be so impatient and don't expect a stock commercial $800 list device to be the last thing you will buy this year or any!

smargo · « **Reply #299 on:** 28 Sep 2003, 06:23 am »

Quote from: audiojerry

Quote
Audiojerry, is the lack of resolution and spaciouness specific to SACD?
Bruno

I don't own any SACD's. I was comparing redbook cd played on the Sony vs. played on my system using the same speakrs and wire.

In and of itself, I would not describe the Sony as lacking resolution and spaciousness; just in comparison to my system.

Jerry please let us know how your sony sounds now