Sony's new ES Line All-In-One (Digital Power)

JohnR · « **Reply #200 on:** 22 Sep 2003, 11:16 pm »

Quote from: audiojerry

I don't disagree, Hoxanduc.
Like I said, if you haven't bitten the forbben apple, count your blessings, and you can be more than satisfied with the Sony.

I think his point is that once the modders get hold of them, these or the next generation may well *be* reference quality (whatever that means

)

Ric Schultz · « **Reply #201 on:** 23 Sep 2003, 12:45 am »

I am going to buy one of the new AVD-S500ES's ASAP....I like the idea of the S-Master Pro updates.....I have the service manual on the 50ES and can say that there are tons, I mean tons of things that could be done to it to improve the sound......

I am buying the single disc one because I want to have maximum room to do mods. The five disc changer mechanism will probably cover a lot of circuitry. I may not be able to do the same level of mods to the 5 disc one.

I am visualizing a $500 mod for those with little cash and more ambitious mods, including a couple of $277 Superclocks, etc.

Can't wait to play with it.......by the way, the 50ES does change the DSD signals into PCM before the amp.....The chip has a direct DSD input but is not being used.....we shall see what they are doing in the 500ES.....fun times ahead.

Ric Schultz

Sa-dono · « **Reply #202 on:** 23 Sep 2003, 12:52 am »

Quote from: Ric Schultz

Can't wait to play with it.......by the way, the 50ES does change the DSD signals into PCM before the amp.....The chip has a direct DSD input but is not being used.....we shall see what they are doing in the 500ES.....fun times ahead.

Interesting. I guess my original question still stands if true then

I'll be interested in reading what others think of your modded units. Keep us updated on what you think of your modded unit in comparison to the stock unit, and what progress is made as well, in the Market Square.

enzo · « **Reply #203 on:** 23 Sep 2003, 05:57 am »

Quote from: Ric Schultz

...the 50ES does change the DSD signals into PCM...

Ric, are you certain of that, or did you mean PWM?

According to the Mitsubishi pdf in this link,
http://www.mitsubishichips.com/data...ds/M65817AE.pdf
the block diagram indicates a PWM stage just prior to the output, with reference made to SONY's S-Master amplifier (as used in the S50). Just makes no sense to convert a delta-sigma modulated signal to PCM...

yukiginger · « **Reply #204 on:** 23 Sep 2003, 12:27 pm »

I just received this unit and set it up this morning, but I get the "PROTECT" message on the display after powering on, and it automatically shuts off. I see mention of this on p. 86 of the manual, which states that it is a speaker protection function, and to check speaker connections. I got this message when I tried powering up with just my front speakers connected, so I also connected the rears and center to see if the unit was detecting missing connections. Anyway, no luck so far. I was wondering if anyone else had run into this yet. I think all are making pretty good connections, but I do have bare wire for my rears. Still, I don't think that I would need all speaker output terminals filled, would I?

Also, I don't see mention in the manual a service or tech. support number to call. I didn't bring other paperwork with me today. Does anyone have the number? Thanks.

Mark

audiojerry · « **Reply #205 on:** 23 Sep 2003, 01:51 pm »

It sounds like something else is wrong. Try disconnecting all speaker leads and powering up.

TheeeChosenOne · « **Reply #206 on:** 23 Sep 2003, 04:39 pm »

Quote from: yukiginger

I was wondering if anyone else had run into this yet. I think all are making pretty good connections, but I do have bare wire for my rears. Still, I don't think that I would need all speaker output terminals filled, would I?

No you don't need all speaker connections connected. I use mine for 2 channel use. Go into the Menu system and adjust the settings.

For Support Questions, go to:
http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_ViewStatic-Start;sid=-U7-IEKVr0j-AH3lgQH0Kw2ElDQoyGp8iP4=?page=%2fstatic%2fsupport%2fsy_support%2eisml

Ric Schultz · « **Reply #207 on:** 23 Sep 2003, 06:08 pm »

Enzo,
Yes, I meant PCM. According to the service manual the DSD inputs on the module are left unused. All signals (DSD and PCM) go into a large DVD processing chip and out comes the data, word and bit clocks that drive the S-master chip through its PCM inputs. So the switching of sources and/or data coversion to PCM is done in this DVD processing chip and sent into the S-Master chip.

I am hoping the S-Master Pro series will run the DSD info directly into the input of the S-Master chip and do the selection there as shown in the block diagram.....We shall see.

If the conversion from DSD to PCM is done with high bits and sampling frequency (an unknown here) then the loses will be nil. However, I really would prefer no conversion. The fact that the signal path is all digital and so short is what is most important here......this is the only machine in the world that has a player and digital amp all in one box.......the only one. No digital cable, no multiplexing the digital signal, no send and receive circuits, no PPL needed to recover a good clock.....all you need is to use some really killer Superclocks in this machine and the jitter will be extremely low and the sound should be killer.......cannot wait to tweak it up!

Marbles · « **Reply #208 on:** 23 Sep 2003, 06:11 pm »

Your enthusiasm is getting ME pysched about this unit.

Let us know how the mods go please!

Dmason · « **Reply #209 on:** 23 Sep 2003, 06:48 pm »

On the parallel tangent is Panasonic's use of Texas Instruments "PurePath" digital amp technology, which seems to reclock the waveform as inherent in its design with a view to increasing lost resolution from MP3, but accepts all sampling rates up to 192, then into the amplifier section. It has been very well thought out and the results just slam. Beautiful tonal definition, bottomless low end, crystal highs through my Revelators, 6 X 100 wpc (about 75@8Ohms) upgrade Caps., great remote, high quality plated inputs, lots of room inside this sandbox, this is my $300 Spectron amp, -no joke! Use good cables and watch out.

For those of you looking to get your feet wet while waiting out Sony's initial AVD500 market and for Ric's own developments, (as I am,) , I advise you check out the Panasonic SA XR45.

audiojerry · « **Reply #210 on:** 23 Sep 2003, 07:22 pm »

I have some concerns that I'm wondering have any validity for this new technology.

I thought it is widely accepted today that isolating circuits and the use of dedicated components within circuits are essential to achieving the best possible sound. Things like separate power supplies, point to point wiring,
separation of digital from analog circuits, and possibly most significant here is RF rejection.

With a unit like the Sony, it seems like the potential for all kinds of smearing and degrading of the signal exist with a switching amplifier, 5 amplifier modules, DSD, A-to-D, D-to-A, and all that jazz, all in 1 box.

Dmason, it seems safe to assume that you find the Carver Pro significantly better for 2 channel audio than the Sony (don't know about the Panasonic yet). But doesn't the Carver Pro take in an analog signal from your digital separate? Is this signal then converted to digital before being amplified? If so, why does the Carver Pro sound better?

On paper, it seems like the Sony should sound better. I'm trying to figure out what inherent design flaw causes the Sony to sound worse than the Carver Pro, if that is the case. Is it just parts quality, dac design, amp design, a little bit of all, or something else?

AphileEarlyAdopter · « **Reply #211 on:** 23 Sep 2003, 09:31 pm »

Quote from: Ric Schultz

Enzo,
Yes, I meant PCM. According to the service manual the DSD inputs on the module are left unused. All signals (DSD and PCM) go into a large DVD processing chip and out comes the data, word and bit clocks that drive the S-master chip through its PCM inputs. So the switching of sources and/or data coversion to PCM is done in this DVD processing chip and sent into the S-Master chip.

I am hoping the S-Master Pro series will run the DSD info directly into the input of the S-Master chip and do the se ...

Also, I am hoping the analog input signals will be converted to DSD and used, like in the DA3000/5000/9000 ES receivers.
This way I can listen to my turntable without losing much of its analog character ( I feel DSD is better than PCM in this matter).

BrunoB · « **Reply #212 on:** 23 Sep 2003, 09:59 pm »

Quote from: Ric Schultz

.....all you need is to use some really killer Superclocks in this machine and the jitter will be extremely low and the sound should be killer.......cannot wait to tweak it up!

Ric, does it make sense to superclock these machines knowing that S-Master already eliminates the jitter (Clean Data Cycle)?

From the Sony white paper (see p.7 of this thread)

Quote

Using a supremely accurate clock, the Clean Data Cycle examines thousands of input pulses at a time, calculates the correct sampling interval and applies the clean interval to the output data. In this way, jitter is completely eliminated—and the integrity of the original musical signal is restored.

Bruno

_scotty_ · « **Reply #213 on:** 23 Sep 2003, 10:47 pm »

Hi audiogerry,I myself am more concerned about the power supply short cuts potentially taken in the final amplification stage rather than data stream issues.Proper use rf noise suppression in the digital power supply grid
is easy to implement by the manufacturer.One of my concerns is the relability of the transport now that most of these parts are sourced from
China.With a five year warranty and decreasing build quality coupled with
technological obsolescence in 6mo,to a year living with it the way it is may not be a bad alternative.If the transports or other parts that might fail
are readily available to the modder to facilitate repairs that might tip the balance.I am looking foward to hearing one of these things for myself.
With a single master clock operating everything in the SONY just like in a recording studio I imagine jitter should have been effectively dealt with.
This may be a case where we can let our ears be the final judge.If it sounds right, it is right. We need to remember that this is a moving target
and next years model may sound better than we can imagine.

Jonathan · « **Reply #214 on:** 24 Sep 2003, 02:29 am »

I'm still awaiting delivery, but until I'm sure I'm keeping C70ES, I'm not going to sell my other stuff. That means my system currently contains no sub or center channel speaker (I'll fund those things with the sale of my separates if I decide I love the Sony).

So, for now at least, I'm running a pair of Ref 3A DeCapos in the front and a pair of old PSB Alphas in back (I know, I know--the PSBs are not in the same league as the De Capos, but they're all I have for now--plus they're not half bad sounding for $200 speakers)

Anyway, my questions are:
1) Does the C70 have a phantom center setting?
2) Regarding the above question, will I still be able to enjoy my multichannel SACDs with a phantom center channel and no rear center?
3) Does the C70 have a subwoofer bypass option?

Thanks, guys!

Jon

kent · « **Reply #215 on:** 24 Sep 2003, 04:58 am »

Jonathan:

I can tell my 70 exactly which channels I'm using (F/R/C/Sub), and which speakers (F/R/C) I want highpass filtered (on the Speaker Setup Menu). It manages my life accordingly.

You can program F/R/C individually to be full-spectrum OR highpassed OR Off. Subwoofer on or off is a separate option -- it doesn't depend on which F/R/C configuration you choose. The subwoofer output is full spectrum when activated.

Then, once you've made all those choices, you choose either 2-Channel or AutoDecode on the changer's face. If you choose 2-Channel it bypasses everything but F left/right speakers. If you choose AutoDecode it sends signals wherever you've said there's a speaker waiting to receive 'em.

Regarding "phantom center channel" (hey, I thought all of us with good stereo rigs had a pretty damn robust phantom center channel to begin with) -- yeah, it mixes the signal down.

I hope everything I said above is clear -- and correct!

Regarding whether you will enjoy the result, I'm not sure. I for one don't enjoy the multichannel SACD layers I've played mixed down to just my F L/R and sub (Chesky discs especially sound weird to me mixed down). I'm wary enough now of the potential weirdness of the mixing down that I try to stay away from multichannel mixes when possible. But I don't know if my impressions are universal.

One thing I know: I'm lovin' the sound of everything else. Life with my '70, my newly modified intermezzos, and my twin subs is berry berry sweet indeed. I am tempted to name mine mason, in honor of our very own pied piper of digital amps to whom I owe the pleasure.

Kent

kent · « **Reply #216 on:** 24 Sep 2003, 05:30 am »

Quote from: Dmason

AND a lime green plastic Tripath powered 2X100wpc Blaupunkt car amp which appears to be a very high quality unit. If it is, I won't be wasting it on my car....

This will be fun to hear about. One of my favorite iconoclastic audio reviews was Peter Aczel in the Audio Critic circa 1999, a cover story I think concluding gleefully that a $150 blaupunkt car receiver outpaced his multi-$K reference tuner in reception and musicality. If Bpunkt has continued to improve their tuners, too, and if they're incorporating the (hopefully well-implemented) tripath into their receiver line, well, put walnut end pieces on it, get some chromeplating on the power converter, and we'll have a Dynalab-slaying receiver, suitable for...every bathroom in the house!

Jonathan · « **Reply #217 on:** 24 Sep 2003, 11:34 am »

Quote from: kent

Regarding whether you will enjoy the result, I'm not sure. I for one don't enjoy the multichannel SACD layers I've played mixed down to just my F L/R and sub (Chesky discs especially sound weird to me mixed down). I'm wary enough now of the potential weirdness of the mixing down that I try to stay away from multichannel mixes when possible. But I don't know if my impressions are universal.

Thanks for the info, Kent. I can see how multichannel might sound weird with only fronts and a sub, but since I have front and rear speakers, I'm guessing multichannel might sound okay.

I'm getting excited waiting for this thing...

Dmason · « **Reply #218 on:** 24 Sep 2003, 12:12 pm »

The human adventure is only beginning!! We can't wait, for you!! Let us all know.

JackStraw · « **Reply #219 on:** 24 Sep 2003, 01:51 pm »

I picked up a AVD-C70ES... I was very pleased with the purchase until I tried to play a DVD last night (first time). Both audio and video have a "hitch" to them, sort of a hesitation like the DVD is scratched. Maybe the HT nuts in here can tell me what the term is for this. I tried two different DVDs with the same results. This hasn't happened on CDs at all. Has anybody else noticed anything like this? I figure there must be a problem in the transport or decoding circuitry.

I'd really like to get one of these that works, but since I got the last one at Oade I'm not sure what will happen. I'll report back in later I'm sure.