Sony's new ES Line All-In-One (Digital Power)

enzo · « **Reply #140 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 09:59 pm »

I'm actually contemplating (hard to believe, really) mating my $3500 B&W Sig805 monitors with a piddly $1000 all-in-one SONY system... Don't use electrostats (not dynamic enuf for classical) and the 805s don't drop below 4.5 ohms and are rated at 89dB, so they should be easy to drive for the SONY.

What's your take on the high-ish THD values?? A justifiable concern?

kendrid · « **Reply #141 on:** 20 Sep 2003, 12:53 am »

Quote from: enzo

I'm actually contemplating (hard to believe, really) mating my $3500 B&W Sig805 monitors with a piddly $1000 all-in-one SONY system... Don't use electrostats (not dynamic enuf for classical) and the 805s don't drop below 4.5 ohms and are rated at 89dB, so they should be easy to drive for the SONY.

What's your take on the high-ish THD values?? A justifiable concern?

Why don't you consider one of the newer ES receivers with the new digital amps? The 3000ES is $1000 MSRP.

kent · « **Reply #142 on:** 20 Sep 2003, 01:16 am »

Quote from: randytsuch

Kent,
Check this out
http://www.behringer.com/02_products/prodindex.cfm?id=DCX2496&lang=eng
I did not check it exactly against your wish list, but I think it will be pretty close. I have also know of people modding the behringers, with good results.

Randy

Randy, that is amazing. Watch out, I'm afraid you're reinforcing my blathering-on behavior with such excellent leads! It seems perfect for a conventional system, but for my main system now I wanna see all that functionality integrated into one of the sony digital amps to avoid lots of interconnects and D/A/D converting and the usual jumble of separate components. (See what an easily spoiled brat I am? Just three weeks ago I would have said that seemed perfect just the way it is....)

It is very encouraging that it exists already even as a separate pro unit.

So what I want now is a audiophile-grade multi-channel amp that uses a Sony S-Master-Pro signal path from source to speaker, and incorporates all of the Behringer's functions. Yeah, baby!

kent · « **Reply #143 on:** 20 Sep 2003, 01:29 am »

Quote from: sharper

FYI, to anyone interested...You can read more about the Behringer 2496 on the Newform Reseach site under What's New -> August 2003. John Meyer of Newform recommends using it with the new Panasonic receiver with digi ...

This is fascinating. They even mention two EQ concepts I've never heard of before. One is "level-dependent equalization", which if I'm understanding correctly, would for instance let owners of certain tweeters (which will remain unnamed to protect the guilty) get rid of their high-volume ringing, but leave the resonant frequency untouched at other volumes.

The other was adjustment EQ for room temperature. Huh? Do they mean that literally, or figuratively?

Anyway, I'll shut up because I'm getting off topic here -- except to the extent that the remarkable range of tools in the Behringer at a ridiculously low MSRP with excellent audio specs demonstrates that it's easy for digital manufacturers to throw in the DSP kitchen sink if they're so inclined. So Sony won't have to decide between producing a tweak's delight versus a mass market bargain hunter's delight. Hopefully they can just make a hidden DSP submenu for 'the rest of us' and nail both markets with one box.

Sheesh. How different the audio world looks to me than just a month ago. Okay... I'm gonna shut up for a while now and let some others use the bandwidth.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #144 on:** 20 Sep 2003, 01:39 am »

It's a brave new world, for sure. One can easily see the day when you will have a universal player spinning the discs, piping out a nice hot, clean digital feed, to be manipulated digitally by your prepro (adding parametric eq, delay for speaker distance, room/speaker correction, etc) and passing it along to the digital input of your MC Digital amp. The very idea is giving me wood!

One could go Dmasons route, if you're just into stereo.

I for one would love my MC to stay digital right up to the amp/speaker interface.

Thanks to all you Digital Visionaries: I've learned more about digital amplification this week than I had in the whole last year.

_scotty_ · « **Reply #145 on:** 20 Sep 2003, 01:40 am »

[What's your take on the high-ish THD values?? A justifiable concern

Those high THD values tend to put fog in the recreated space that the instruments are in,if it is predominately 2nd order it will give that warm and fuzzy sound and project the instruments forward in the sound stage.
If it actually has much lower real world distortion, unless it current limits driving a load, it should sound as clean and clear as a Carver or BelCanto
driving the same load.Until someone actually measures the THD with a
brick wall AES filter that rejects noise above 20kHz we won't know any thing for sure.Nothing like idle speculation to base a decision on. Where's Julian Hirsch when you need him.

kent · « **Reply #146 on:** 20 Sep 2003, 01:52 am »

Sharper points us to a very interesting document at newformresearch.com (go to "expert advice", then "what's new" then "august 2003"). I've only made it through the first page, but John Meyer's rave about a lowly (Texas Instruments-chipset-based?) Panasonic receiver is similar to dmason's raves about the Carver and Sony units. Meyer, like dmason, calls his lowly Panasonic "a whole new paradigm", and describes many heretofore inaccessible sonic virtues.

It is well worth searching this document out for a read!

kendrid · « **Reply #147 on:** 20 Sep 2003, 02:00 am »

I just ordered the Sony 3000ES receiver to try out. You guys all rave about the S-Master digital amps, and the Pro design is supposed to be superior to the old digital amps (according to Sony). It should be one amazing system.

The street date for the 3000ES was supposed to be Sept 15th, but Tweeter and Abt electronics both told me mid-next month. Luckily, Tweeter had one left in the warehouse that was supposed to be an in-store demo. A store didn't want it, so they sold it to me with a 10% discount (NIB) which isn't bad for a product that has not hit the street yet. I will have it next Tuesday. I will post my impressions.

Since I don't post here often, here is my current system:
Jolida 1501RC integrated tube amp with Sylvania Jan5751 NOS tubes
ACI Sapphire 25th anniversary edition

I am using a Yamaha 1400 receiver for HT at the moment.

I have been to Jackman's house a couple of times to hear his Ellis 1801s vs my Sapphires, and to hear his Van Alstine gear. I would own it if I had the $$.

If this Sony lives up to the hype, it will have to go head-to-head with Jack's gear. Maybe I will be selling my Jolida... ??

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #148 on:** 20 Sep 2003, 02:05 am »

Welcome to AC, Kendrid. Anyone who can put up w/JMan can hang here any day!

(Just kiddin', JM).

Sounds like a great buy on the Sony. I'll admit that most of my like I've considered Sony just one short step above B(l)ose, but the new Digital models have got my attention. I'm chomping at the bit to hear your impressions of it's sound quality.

Will we see legions selling of their high end amps & pre's to buy silver plastic Sony "CDeivers"?

kendrid · « **Reply #149 on:** 20 Sep 2003, 02:27 am »

Quote from: Rob Babcock

Sounds like a great buy on the Sony. I'll admit that most of my like I've considered Sony just one short step above B(l)ose, but the new Digital models have got my attention. I'm chomping at the bit to hear your impressions of it's sound quality.

Will we see legions selling of their high end amps & pre's to buy silver plastic Sony "CDeivers"?

Jack is one tough dude to get along with...

And his dog..trying to hump me any chance it gets..

It is hard for me to picture a Sony component - especially a receiver - hooked up to my Sapphires. An all-in-one unit would be even harder to get past. If these amps catch on, 5 years from now this hobby could be turned on it's head.

Hantra · « **Reply #150 on:** 20 Sep 2003, 02:43 am »

Quote

What's your take on the high-ish THD values?? A justifiable concern?

I thought we had this debate. . Like . . . In the 1980's. . .

enzo · « **Reply #151 on:** 20 Sep 2003, 03:12 am »

Quote

Why don't you consider one of the newer ES receivers with the new digital amps?

Cuz I wanna keep it digital from SACD source to amp output, which the AVD-line purports to do. Tons of inherent advantages in doing that you gotta think.

'Course I'll hang onto the S9000ES for a while longer just in case...

Hantra · « **Reply #152 on:** 20 Sep 2003, 03:43 am »

By the way. . . I'm sitting downstairs right now, and I should be in bed. I'm listening to this Stones sampler they sent with the Sony. I am not even a big Stones fan, but man this really sounds awesome!!!!!!

Very impressive. I mean, I didn't even listen to my real system today, and I'm down here just having a blast. . .

I need to hit the hay. But it's VERY nice to be able to really ENJOY the music coming from your little second system rahter than just deal with it. . .

L8z,

B

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #153 on:** 20 Sep 2003, 03:55 am »

Is that sampler an SACD, Hantra?

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #154 on:** 20 Sep 2003, 04:02 am »

The S50-SE does purport to keep SACD digital right up to the amp, doesn't it?

kent · « **Reply #155 on:** 20 Sep 2003, 04:20 am »

Quote from: enzo

Quote
Why don't you consider one of the newer ES receivers with the new digital amps?

Cuz I wanna keep it digital from SACD source to amp output, which the AVD-line purports to do. Tons of inherent advantages in doing that you gotta think.

'Course I'll hang onto the S9000ES for a while longer just in case...

Yeah it sounds like only the top-of-the-line new receiver and SACD player will be able to keep the signal all-digital. From Sony's technical manual on the new ES receivers:

"The S-Master Pro amplifier accepts all digital signals directly, whether
they're multi-bit Pulse Code Modulation (PCM) or 1-bit Direct Stream Digital™ pulses, in the case of the SCD-XA9000ES SA-CD player connected via i.LINK® interface to the STR-DA9000ES."

kent · « **Reply #156 on:** 20 Sep 2003, 04:29 am »

Quote from: Rob Babcock

The S50-SE does purport to keep SACD digital right up to the amp, doesn't it?

You bet your bippy. Actually further than that. Right through the amp, if I understand this correctly. Delivered to the speakers as a digital (pulse power) signal. Sony published a technical paper on the S50 and C70. Go to the same link as provided for the other tech paper and search on AVD-C70ES to find it. Quoting from it, " In the Digital Drive Amplifier, all input signals, whether Direct Stream Digital™ (DSD™) signal or Pulse Code Modulation (PCM), are converted into a stream of 1-bit pulses. "

enzo · « **Reply #157 on:** 20 Sep 2003, 05:32 am »

...directly thru the same all-digital circuits of the SONY. I believe the sat outputs PCM, albeit compressed?? We shall see (hear)...

_scotty_ · « **Reply #158 on:** 20 Sep 2003, 06:33 am »

I thought we had this debate. . Like . . . In the 1980's. . .[/quote]

Hantra, at the end of the day,when everything else has been done right
in an amplifier design,residual distortion is important.Distortion of the reproduced waveform is something to be avoided, it is never desirable.
If these new SONY products are sounding similar or better than other products with resonably low distortion specs than the numbers don't matter.If they sound good they are good.I have not heard them or compared them to my system yet.I was merely trying to be the voice of caution here. I hope they're stunningly good and beat more expensive gear.

Hantra · « **Reply #159 on:** 20 Sep 2003, 01:29 pm »

Quote

Is that sampler an SACD, Hantra?

Yep!