Sony's new ES Line All-In-One (Digital Power)

kent · « **Reply #80 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 04:01 pm »

Quote from: Ric Schultz

Did you read my post? Did you download the paper that Bruno pointed us towards?????? Are you awake? Please wake up!
...

I needed to be woken up, too. Thank you, Ric, and apologies again for my earlier confusion about the tripath vs. s-masters.

Fortunately, getting edumucated about this is really easy and interesting. the Sony technical paper on the various S-MASTER chips is fun. . It's extremely clearly-written, really gorgeously illustrated, with simple diagrams to summarize each of the myriad technical achievements, and high-res photos of different areas of the S-MASTER-PRO receivers. Something for every phool to drool over.

So please, to quote Bruno, go to this page http://www.iq.sony.com/srvs/sosdocs/default.asp and search for STR-DA9000ES. Then download the "ES Receivers Technical Background".

Do it now! You'll thank him for it.

In the meantime, here's a summary from the white paper of the technical features in each of the three existing iterations of S-MASTER, beginning with the current third generation chip. (S-Master Pro).

S-Master Pro
Third Generation
2003
STR-DA9000ES, STR-DA5000ES, STR-DA3000ES, STR-DA2000ES
• Clean Data Cycle
• C-PLM
• S-TACT
• Pulse Height Volume
Control
• DC Phase Linearizer
• Discrete Output
Transistors
• Toroidal Low Pass Filter
• Two-Stage Pulse Power
Supply

"Digital Drive" SMaster
Second Generation
2002
AVD-C70ES, AVD-S50ES
• Clean Data Cycle
• C-PLM
• S-TACT
• Pulse Height Volume
Control

S-Master
First Generation
2001
• Clean Data Cycle
• C-PLM
• S-TACT

Marbles · « **Reply #81 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 04:10 pm »

Nathan and et al, thank you for the explanations.

kent · « **Reply #82 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 04:17 pm »

(Just one example of how interesting the sony technical paper is, a teaser if you will. Then go read it!)

In their technical paper on the S-Master series chipsets, Sony raises an interesting argument. The gist of it is that traditional amps almost all suffer from characteristic extreme bass phase shift, and that virtually all high-end loudspeaker manufacturers "consciously or not" (Sony's phrase!) have engineered their speakers with this problem in mind, so that their speakers will sound right on a phase-troubled amp. This means phase linear amps may sound quite wrong played back through such 'co-evolved' speakers. Sony's solution is to allow the user to select several precise increments of DSP bass phase shift.

I don't know how to evaluate Sony's claim about traditional amps (hey, my first power amp cerca 1982 was a Phase Linear, but I wouldn't put it past a manufacturer to name his company after an underserved cool-sounding phrase), but regardless, this sounds like a really nice feature for system integration, especially for people who don't use subs with phase controls. Now they can have close control over bass phase too... Unless I've misunderstood something.

My only other thought is "Linearizer" has got to be one of the clunkier technology labels I've heard. Try to say it five times fast!

Kent
-----------------------------------------
From Bruno: Go to this page http://www.iq.sony.com/srvs/sosdocs/default.asp and search for STR-DA9000ES. Then download the "ES Receivers Technical Background".

kent · « **Reply #83 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 04:30 pm »

Quote from: Jay S

I agree that these all-in-1 Sony's are very interesting! I'd be inclined to get one for my bedroom. They do have them here in HK, but not the ES version. The local versions use S-Master digital amps, not the S-Master Pro.....Does anyone know if the AVD50ES sold in the U.S. is multivolt (e.g. can operate on 220v as well as 110v?) Thanks!

Jay, to clarify, the 50ES (and its sibling the 70ES) you asked about relies on last year's S-Master chip. To get the new S-Master-Pro chip, you'd have to get one of the upcoming models, either the 500ES or the 700ES. They are expected in stores here "any day now". So it sounds like you're in the same situation chipwise in HK that we are here.

At least, that's my understanding from the following key document:

Go to http://www.iq.sony.com/srvs/sosdocs/default.asp
Search for STR-DA9000ES.
Download the "ES Receivers Technical Background" pdf file (large).

audiojerry · « **Reply #84 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 05:51 pm »

Quote

S-Master Pro
Third Generation
2003
STR-DA9000ES, STR-DA5000ES, STR-DA3000ES, STR-DA2000ES

Quote

Jay, to clarify, the 50ES (and its sibling the 70ES) you asked about relies on last year's S-Master chip. To get the new S-Master-Pro chip, you'd have to get one of the upcoming models, either the 500ES or the 700ES.

I'm confused

again.
Is it the STR-DA9000ES thru STR-DA2000ES, or the 500ES and 700ES the models with the S-Master Pro, or both lines?

kent · « **Reply #85 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 06:16 pm »

Quote from: audiojerry

Quote
S-Master Pro
Third Generation
2003
STR-DA9000ES, STR-DA5000ES, STR-DA3000ES, STR-DA2000ES

Quote

Jay, to clarify, the 50ES (and its sibling the 70ES) you asked about relies on last year's S-Master chip. To get the new S-Master-Pro chip, you'd have to get one of the upcoming models, either the 500ES or the 700ES.

I'm confused again.
Is it the STR-DA9000ES thru STR-DA2000ES, or the 500ES and 700ES the models with the S-Master Pro, or both lines?

BOTH new ES lines are confirmed S-Master Pro. At least, in the on-line Sony lit I've found. To verify this, go to

http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/3957

and search for AVD-C700ES or AVD-S500ES. You will find this phrase:

"The AVD-C700ES and AVD-S500ES utilize a new S-Master™ Pro process..."

A caveat - In addition to explaining the differences between S-Master and S-Master Pro, the Technical Paper describes various audiophiliish design features of the ES receivers that I doubt made it into the all-in-ones. E.g., look at the size of that transformer on the 9000ES! Yikes.

(I notice elsewhere I've occasionally messed up the model number of the new 500ES -- it's properly designated S for Single, and the 700ES is designated C for changer. Sorry.)

Hantra · « **Reply #86 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 06:49 pm »

DMason. . .

Can you quantify how much better the Carver sounds vs. the Sony? I am going to take my Sony up and listen b/c I am thinking of ordering that Carver from Nathan.

Thanks!

B

kendrid · « **Reply #87 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 06:50 pm »

Here is a link that lists quite a few digital chip manufacturers, along with comments about the pros and cons of each chipset.

http://www.classd.org/oem_products/oem.htm

The Sony was not liked by them, but it also states that they have the 'S-Master', not the 'S-Master pro'.

I recommend going to the root of the site and looking at the Q&A. It is interesting..
"Obtaining acceptable performance (THD<0.1%, hardly enough to classify as a digital amplifier) is complicated and expensive."

kent · « **Reply #88 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 06:54 pm »

Quote from: kent

BOTH new ES lines are confirmed S-Master Pro. At least, in the on-line Sony lit I've found. To verify this, go to http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/3957 and search for AVD-C700ES or AVD-S500ES. You will find this phrase: "The AVD-C700ES and AVD-S500ES utilize a new S-Master™ Pro process..."

I'm taking a guess that the only reason the technical paper doesn't list the new all-in-ones as S-Master Pro is probably that they weren't ready when the paper was produced.

The Sony press release is very clear about it, though.

kent · « **Reply #89 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 07:02 pm »

Quote from: kendrid

I recommend going to the root of the site and looking at the Q&A. It is interesting..
"Obtaining acceptable performance (THD<0.1%, hardly enough to classify as a digital amplifier) is complicated and expensive."

Hmmm... but THD < .1% is not universally agreed to be audible, and I'd take many other audio virtues over infinitesimal THD any day. I imagine our toobhead friends would agree. The phrase "hardly enough to classify as a digital amplifier" sets off one or two of my mass-array bias sensors .

Saltily granularly,

Kent

P.S. The mention of THD reminds me that something really special about this discussion so far is that it hasn't broken down along tube vs. solid-state loyalties! How nice to all be on the same page -- let's see if it lasts .

kent · « **Reply #90 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 07:05 pm »

Quote from: kent

but THD < .1% is not universally agreed to be audible

In fact, I should have mentioned, judicious little bits of some forms of it may be euphonic. Regardless, there's no need to think it will necessarily interfere with the most important audio virtues.

I'd just hate to see the digital chip people obsessively pursue zero THD, which historically has been done at the expense of sound quality...

kendrid · « **Reply #91 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 07:09 pm »

Quote from: kent

Quote from: kent
but THD < .1% is not universally agreed to be audible

In fact, I should have mentioned, judicious little bits of some forms of it may be euphonic. Regardless, there's no need to think it will necessarily interfere with the most important audio virtues.

I'd just hate to see the digital chip people obsessively pursue zero THD, which historically has been done at the expense of sound quality...

If they can make it sound good, say like tubes, the I don't care what the specs are.

The writer of that site states on other pages that a lot of the digital amps do sound somewhat like tubes.
"Practically any half-decent implementation of a simple class D amplifier executed using today's components sounds warm, dynamic and musical, having the kind of direct appeal also found in vacuum tube amplifiers"

Here is another site dedicated to digital amps that I found (linked from classd.org): http://www.puredigitalaudio.org/digitalamplifiers/index.shtml

Ric Schultz · « **Reply #92 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 08:38 pm »

You must understand that this is just the first of lots of such implementations we will see within the next five years.....As most of you have read, the about to be released top of the line Sony Receiver ($4500 retail) will do 200 watts a channel and has 7 channels. The best part is that it has the firewire input so it can accept the signals from their also about to be released top of the line SACD/CD player ($3000 list). This combo ($7500 list) is what Sony has been demoing all over the world for the last few months.....you know with 5 B&W or other very good speakers......people have been pretty impressed by the sound....you see Sony really does not know how to make very good analog stuff....way too many parts, op amps etc......but this way, they cannot really muck it up too much. Of course, I will have to modify all these things as there is always another level of perfomance that you can go to with super tweak execution......The digital fun begins!

Brad · « **Reply #93 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 08:50 pm »

Ric,

Would you recommend waiting for the AVD-C700es?
Prices on the '70 are pretty attractive right now.

I'm sure some of the Internet dealers will have the '700 at a decent price pretty soon after it's available.

Curious.....

Dmason · « **Reply #94 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 10:01 pm »

The prices always go down online after the first three months or less, after demand falls abit. The current line sounds very, very, very good. If you can live without the new and excellent cosmetics, I would suggest you even wait until the new line is in, soon that is, and look at the prices on the existing line. I would think $400 for the 70 and maybe $300 for the 50. There also exists the little STR SL7, discontinued yet orbiting out there like some minor Jovian moon, and can be had for $260, 5 channels, 80wpc.

Personally, I saw the overall sound jump into a new category after I soldered up the new IEC receptacle and added the Virtual Dynamics cord. I now have it on carbon fiber pucks, on a maple block, on four vibrapods. Great set up, no interconnects, no pre amp, no nuttin!!

Hantra · « **Reply #95 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 10:03 pm »

But how does it really compare to the ZR?

B

kent · « **Reply #96 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 10:20 pm »

I just posted my early impressions of the C70ES in AA's preamp/amp forum. (interesting sign of the times: really not sure which forum comments on this device belong in!)

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/27713.html

Dmason · « **Reply #97 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 10:29 pm »

Oh, that?? Well, I think that is a different story. First, the ZR 1000 is a 225 watt monster amp with overbuilt flitered, linear PSU, and toroid like a Chicago donut, ultra stiff rails, outstanding output caps., and all the good stuff. It controls speakers with scary authority, and exhibits unbelievable rise time, can announce itself like a crack of thunder. It does not have the tendency of high power transistor amps to overstate macro-dynamics...I have for input, Cardas cabling wired right up to the input taps of the actual amp, and Alpha Core speaker cable wired from output to speaker terminals... Read the new reviews written by two of my fellow converts JCC and mttbsh in AA, and I think you will get a good insight.

The AVD sounds very similar, but doesn't have the juice it seems, nor should it. However, I do not listen to music all that loud. It doesn't have the same tweakability, or fun factor, my ZR is rather unique at this point, BUT I would say that the shortest distance from A to B is the AVD IMHO, and --to THESE ears-- because you do not have to screw around adapting it to anything. Bottom line, I love the sound of both, but I sleep with the Carver.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #98 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 10:45 pm »

Well, DMason, I think in me you've found another convert! Looks like I'll be trying the Carver, too.

Still, I'm intrigued by the Sony S50-ES; I think it'd make a killer 2nd system or bedroom system. The small size, all-in-one-box aspect, coupled w/ low heat & high effieciency, would make it excellent for my bedroom rig. I've been thinking of an NAD C-320BEE, but the Sony may be better suited to my needs. The 5 channel amp & digital inputs would be nice for adding my P2 & an Xbox to my 2nd rig...

What an interesting time to be alive and into audio!

Hantra · « **Reply #99 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 10:55 pm »

My S50ES obviously still needs some more break-in time. Right now, I am astounded at the bass this has. I am using it on Aliante Pininfarina Stile monitors with a 5 1/4" woofer!!!!!

Anyhow, the highs are still quite compressed, but already they are surprising me with their dimensionality. Hopefully the break-in will kill this compression. Then I'll take it upstairs for the real test. Doesn't really matter though. I'm pretty sure I'm getting the Carver from Nathan.

B