Sony's new ES Line All-In-One (Digital Power)

BrunoB · « **Reply #60 on:** 12 Sep 2003, 08:51 pm »

Quote from: JackStraw

I'm sorry the guy at Oade didn't say... he just said that they would be quite a bit more expensive. I assumed that they are integrated units... you could call Oade at 229-228-0093 more more info.

I called Oade and they gave me the new models identifications. From there, I searched the web and found this link:

http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/3957

The two new units have a 6th channel and support for Dolby-EX and DTS ES (but no DTE-ES 96/24).

The new units use the S-Master™ "Pro" digital amp, like the new receivers.

The output power seems to be the same as before.

MSRP: $800 and $1000

Bruno

TheeeChosenOne · « **Reply #61 on:** 12 Sep 2003, 09:22 pm »

Quote from: JackStraw

Quote

That said, do you Sony AVD C70 owners feel like it is underpowered? The guys at Oade warned me that some people are complaining about the lack of power.

I got the same lip service from Oade when I bought mine. The guy at Oade said that some customers were mating the unit with HUGE inefficient speakers in a BIG rooms. In such cases, any ~100+ watt amp will run into the same issues when trying to fill a huge room with sound along with "unfriendly" speakers.

For me, the Sony has plenty of power to spare. You can easily lose your hearing with how loud it goes.

BrunoB · « **Reply #62 on:** 15 Sep 2003, 12:00 am »

Complementary Pulse Length Modulation (C-PLM) is the technology used by Sony for digital amplification. It is not PWM and it is not Tripath.

"Previous digital amplifiers have used a 1-bit technology called Pulse Width Modulation or PWM. That is to say, those digital amplifiers varied the width of pulses. Unfortunately, PWM tends to expose the signal to second-order harmonic distortion. That's why the Digital Drive Amplifier uses a Sony exclusive technology called Complementary Pulse Length Modulation (C-PLM). C-PLM effectively controls the distortion, maintaining the integrity of the musical signal. "

There is a 1.44Mb PDF document that introduces it.

Go to this page http://www.iq.sony.com/srvs/sosdocs/default.asp and search for STR-DA9000ES. Then download the "ES Receivers Technical Background".

kent · « **Reply #63 on:** 15 Sep 2003, 07:47 pm »

Wow, the Sony white paper is fascinating, and it sounds like their digital ES receivers with S-MASTER-PRO may indeed be a real breakthrough.

But does anybody know whether the NEW generation of all-in-one AVD players (the AVD-C500ES and the AVD-C700ES, due out next week) utilize the S-MASTER chip or the apparently much preferable S-MASTER-PRO chip described in the paper? Will the updated all-in-ones have all the features described for the receivers (such as DSP phase adjustment, and other amazing things)??? Or, will they carry on with the more basic S-MASTER implementation?

Thanks....

kent · « **Reply #64 on:** 15 Sep 2003, 07:49 pm »

Quote from: kent

Wow, the Sony white paper is fascinating, and it sounds like their digital ES receivers with S-MASTER-PRO may indeed be a real breakthrough.

But does anybody know whether the NEW generation of all-in-one AVD players (the AVD-C500ES and the AVD-C700ES, due out next week) utilize the S-MASTER chip ....

Oops. It's the newer chip. Sorry for the wasted bandwidth!

Ric Schultz · « **Reply #65 on:** 16 Sep 2003, 06:47 am »

I knew that Sony was not using the Tripath modules but wanted to make sure......Thanks Bruno for finding out the truth.....I called Tripath today and they confirmed that the Tripath modules are only used by Sony in some auto and Pro uses. All the AVD series and new Receivers all use Sonys own S-Master amps. Sooooo, we can all stop the Sony=Tripath mistake.

TheeeChosenOne · « **Reply #66 on:** 16 Sep 2003, 05:47 pm »

I wouldn't trust calling a Sony rep to get any info on its products as they are ignoramouses. Too much experience with them to think otherwise.

There is a large number of very technologically-oriented people who proclaim that these Sonys are using the Tripath technology. I researched the hell out of this product and all roads seem to lead to Tripath.

Regardless...........as I'm intimately familiar with the sound of the best of the best in existing digital amps, I can safely say the sound is very good indeed!

For those looking for high end sound at an exceptional price, one really can't go wrong with these units. These are one of those GIANT deals I'm always on the lookout for.

Dmason · « **Reply #67 on:** 16 Sep 2003, 06:05 pm »

Like I said earlier, I popped the top off my AVD70, and the chipsets read "S-Master," but my brain sees "Tripath" Like I said, sonic signature, almost identical. ie: very tube-like to these ears....My conclusion: Who cares? It 1) sounds fabulous 2) costs next to nothing in audiophool terms, no stand alone player, no interconnect, no pre amp, no interconnect AND direct feed of digital signal into what I suspect ARE indeed Tripath amp chips, because they look just like the ones I know to be. Anybody bite yet? I love mine!!

Also, SONY has a long tradition of taking other designs and rebadging them, calling them their own. THey even attempted to ignore the fact that their half assed DSP chips in earlier junk HT receivers were LEXICON, not SONY.

Ric Schultz · « **Reply #68 on:** 16 Sep 2003, 07:37 pm »

Did you read my post? Did you download the paper that Bruno pointed us towards?????? Are you awake? Please wake up!

I did not speak to a Sony rep. I spoke to one of the main engineers at Tripath.....he knows all about the S-master chips that SONY designed and told me very directly that Sony does not use their chips in A-V products, only in car and Pro audio.......what more do you need to convince you?....more? OK there is lots more......please, I mean pretty please, follow the link Bruno has on his post and download the white paper on the new digital receivers.....it has all the information and pictures and HISTORY about the S-master system and why it was developed and how it is different from other technolgies and how it has progressed into the S-master Pro......in fact in the S-master pro series the driver is a new Sony chip with Sony numbers on it....clearly visible....

I really don't care whose product is in what, I just like it called by it true name. Sony has developed their own digital amp technology and it is good. This is the truth!

Best regards,

Ric Schultz

Ric Schultz · « **Reply #69 on:** 16 Sep 2003, 07:53 pm »

There is no current Tripath product that can take digital signals directly in. There is a preliminary data sheet on the Tripath site, but the chips are not ready to ship. This information directly from one of the head engineers at Tripath......anotherwords, there is no way a Tripath chip could even do what the Sony does: that is, take a digital signal directly into the chip. And the new chip that Tripath is developing will not take DSD directly into it like the Sony S-Master chip can. It is the only direct digital technology besides Sharp that can take the DSD signals and directly amplify them.

There are at least four direct digital amp technologies currently in use: The Sony S-master, The TI chips (Toccata Tech), the ApogeeDXX technology and Sharp. Panasonic uses the TI fully digital chips in their new Receivers and Hitachi, Harmon Kardon and others are using the new ApogeeDXX fully digital chip sets.....next year we will see some others with the upcoming Tripath direct digital set....but not SONY! And I am sure there will be more.

The Spectron and the B&O Icepower chips can only do analog in. Spectrons digital in module is just a D to A converter before the amp.

Hope this clears things up.....there is lots going on in the digital amp wars and this is just the beginning of a revolution in great sound for less money. Enjoy!

Ric Schultz

Dmason · « **Reply #70 on:** 16 Sep 2003, 08:16 pm »

Okay Ric, I'm finally awake now! Pour another coffee...I forgot the .pdf to read because my Acrobat wouldn't load, digital chips being what they are...

the good news is that the Sony rig sound fantastic, after having played for ten days straight. It really, really does folks. I second Ric's motion: No need for all those separates any more.This thing is a playground for modification, no doubt! Has the sound of bottomless power, an iron grip on the speakers, and highs out the window. Conclusion: Tripath is not the only game in town for That Sound! Although I won't be giving away my Zr amp any time soon...

And thanks to everyone for all the good input on both threads. Vive Le Revolution!

Jay S · « **Reply #71 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 08:24 am »

I agree that these all-in-1 Sony's are very interesting! I'd be inclined to get one for my bedroom. They do have them here in HK, but not the ES version. The local versions use S-Master digital amps, not the S-Master Pro.

Does anyone know if the AVD50ES sold in the U.S. is multivolt (e.g. can operate on 220v as well as 110v?) and if it is possible to modify/hack it to be region free (e.g. play DVDs from all regions). If so, then it would be a great buy for me (esp for $400!).

Thanks!

audiojerry · « **Reply #72 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 12:49 pm »

Very interesting topic and comments.

Quote

The Spectron and the B&O Icepower chips can only do analog in. Spectrons digital in module is just a D to A converter before the amp.

I have a question. There seems to be a great deal of importance placed on the ability of a chip to directly accept a digital signal. Is this because it is better to amplify the signal in the digital domain, versus amplification in the analog domain? (Because at some point the digital signal must be converted to analog) Can somone with the techical expertise expound on this?

8thnerve · « **Reply #73 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 01:22 pm »

Quote from: audiojerry

(Because at some point the digital signal must be converted to analog) Can somone with the techical expertise expound on this?

It actually does not ever convert to analog. A digital PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) signal can drive a speaker. It takes a bit of playing with, but a digital amp does not use D to A converter. It actually uses an A to D and stays that way. The reason there is an advantage with the sony piece, is that there is not a D to A stage at all, so the amp never has to do the A to D stage. It is digital from disc to speaker. The Spectron amps have a digital option that accepts a direct digital input as well.

I have been wanting to build one of these for years, ask the rest of the Eighth Nerve crew. Looks like I sat on my duff too long to be first!

Marbles · « **Reply #74 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 01:53 pm »

Bill, my speakers don't play "1's" and "0's" very well. They don't do D to A conversion either, yet I'm sure I would hear an analog signal. Where would the D to A conversion take place?

8thnerve · « **Reply #75 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 02:50 pm »

Quote from: Marbles

Bill, my speakers don't play "1's" and "0's" very well. They don't do D to A conversion either, yet I'm sure I would hear an analog signal. Where would the D to A conversion take place?

Sorry, for not specifying, but this is Nathan. Bill posts as Bill Laurent. Marbles, A PWM signal is essentially an on pulse for a specific amount of time followed by no signal for a specific time. So it really is ones and zeros if you choose to look at it that way. The way it achieves different signal strengths is by dithering in a sense. So 100% signal or -0db in analog would be full signal from an analog amplifier. A digital amplifier would be on 100% of the time to product the same signal. A 50% analog signal would be half the signal (half the voltage, -6db, whatever). A digital amp would alternate between on and off equally. So if we take 4 cycles (of the digital amp, not Hz) The 1st would be all on, 2nd all off, 3rd all on, 4th all off, and this would produce a 50% signal similar to the analog signal. A 25% signal would 1 on, 2 off, 3 off, 4 off, etc. This is one of the reasons digital amps are so effiecient, because they are only drawing significant current when producing a signal, hence class D or T.

Since a speaker diaphragm is essentially an electromagnet these pulses move the speaker the same way an analog signal would. And since they operate at 200KHz-500KHz, they are theoretically too fast for us to detect, and certainly too fast for most drivers to react in a staired fashion. There is too much inertia in most drivers to respond that quickly.

Does that make more sense?

kendrid · « **Reply #76 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 03:08 pm »

Quote from: Marbles

Bill, my speakers don't play "1's" and "0's" very well. They don't do D to A conversion either, yet I'm sure I would hear an analog signal. Where would the D to A conversion take place?

Sorry if this has been posted here before, but Sony's PDF explains how it works.
http://www.docs.sony.com/release/STRDA3000ES_TWP.pdf

I plan on demoing the 2000ES in my home. Both of my local retailers were supposed to receive them this past Monday, but neither got any and they don't know when they will be arriving.

audiojerry · « **Reply #77 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 03:16 pm »

Thanks for helping out, Nathan (you might want to use your nickname if you have one. There's another Nathan around here that some people are ticked off with

)

I guess I can see how this digital pulse can vary a speaker driver's amplitude, but I don't understand how it can handle frequency, tonality, etc. This type of information requires decoding of 16 bit word, digital clock, and all that other stuff that occurs in D to A conversion. I don't see how a speaker driver can do this when a digital signal is sent to it. Can you show us a video?

Hantra · « **Reply #78 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 03:18 pm »

That's wicked. . . Thanks for the explanation Nathan. . . I read that entire Sony PDF the other day, and it was informative, but it never really sunk in until I re-read it just now after your explanation.

If that's the case, and these are now putting out a digital PWM signal through a LPF to the loudspeaker, then it truly is a revoultion, right?

I have the Sony, and I have been breaking it in for a couple of weeks downstairs. I need to take it upstairs just for fun to see how it sounds. . .

B

Dmason · « **Reply #79 on:** 17 Sep 2003, 03:36 pm »

And it sounds pretty damn good. Mine is pretty much burned in now, and feeding great speakers, my main speakers, with a grip on the material, this is the best deal in audio right now, IMHO. Look at the dough you save on interconnects, alone. Yesterday I installed an IEC cord from Virtual Dynamics. Quality immediately jacked up...Imaging is scary good. Microdynamics are there. Detail, warmth, thermionic "glow," whatever, it is all there. Yummm. Both Redbook and SACD sound fabulous. Remote volume with mute...I LOVE this thing. My highest recommendation.