[GHM]

Has anyone heard this head amp converted into a tubed preamp? I contacted the  designer about building such a unit. I'm just curious if anyone else has tried this in their system.  I'm set to place the order within a few days, before I make the plunge any thoughts or advice would be great.

http://www.singlepower.com/

TIA

[Dave G]

Sorry, I can't help, but I'm very interested in whatever feedback you get.  There have been some tantalizing hints over the last few months that Singlepower 6SN7 preamps and other 6SN7 preamps can sound really good with T amps.  What kind of amp would you be using?

Dave

[GHM]

Hi Dave I'll be using my AudioSector gainclone. I'm trying to get the wetness of tubes with the delicacy and speed of the OP chip amp.
After listening to the EE minimax  and SN mono combo. I can't seem to get the sound out of my head. This is good stuff for the ears and the soul!

[mojoman]

I can't speak to the Singlepowers as pre-amps buy my MPX3 is a fantastic headphone amp.  You might check over at Head-fi as some of those guys have used the Singlepowers as pres.

[GHM]

Thanks MOJO for the reply...I'm back and forth between the PPX unit and a ULTRAPATH  bp kit from Welbourne labs. The WL kit cost quite a bit more. But that battery powered tubed preamp with remote sure looks tasty!! If every thing goes ok I'll place my order for the Ultrapath next week. The reason I'm swaying towards it. Is the fact I have at least 10 brand new batteries that I can use with it just laying around. That means it will be more than 5 yrs before I need to buy any more batteries at the earliest.

 
http://www.welbornelabs.com/ultra.htm

[-Richard-]

Hi GHM,

admittedly...the UltraPath battery/tube/preamp is rather lovely looking...
does it use Octals like the SinglePower preamps?

It is amazing what a good photographer can do for a product...
still...the use of batteries with tubes is very intriguing...

If you do purchase it I will be very very interested in your observations...
please keep us posted...

You may have found a real winner here...I am quite taken with Ron's new
45 tube special edition kit amps as well...

There is a FREE Audio Show next week at the Pasadena Embassy Suites Hotel in
Arcadia, California...626.445.8525...here is an information link:

http://www.vacuumtube.com/vtv%20news.htm

I intend to be there with Deb on Sunday...

Ron Welborne will be there with his new gear...presumably the Ultra Path will
be played along with his other new offerings...I will try to hear what it sounds like!

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us...it is always nice to read what other
AC members are thinking...especially when you respect their audio thinking...

Warm Regards -Richard-

[GHM]

Hi, Richard

It's great to hear from you! I'm very intrigued as well with this preamp.
I've talked to a good friend ,who is more skilled at the assembly of such a preamp. He agreed to assist me in building it. So it looks like I will order one very soon. From checking the FAQ section this unit may very well use those Octal tubes. I'll email the company and find out for sure.

Something else that has my attention with this unit. Is it's use of output transformers on the analog outputs . Unlike some units that use capacitors or cathode followers . This unit should be extremely dynamic!And I mean grab you by the Cojones ! Cable lengths shouldn't be any problems.

I really like tubes. I just want a unit that's dead quiet. My amplifier has so much gain and extremely quiet to be on the grid.... any noise would be amplified from the preamp . This looks like my best bet. Maybe I can kill two birds with one stone on this one. I think they built this unit just for D Mason   . It's what he's been looking for as well.

I hope your right my friend . If it is a winner.. it will be the final piece of my crazy puzzle.

Here' another tube amp/preamp designer I've stumbled across.
http://www.electra-print.com/index.html

This looks to be a supplier for Welbourne Labs.

[Bemopti123]

I say WL!

The battery factor is a swinger here...and not regular, but lead sealed.  Instantaneous current from big batteries and the looks, not bad.  

The price for the preamp, is on the higher end....for some hundreds more, one can swing for some famous, trendsetters, such as First Sound, BAT, ARC and others.  But then, WL is a DIY oriented outfit, which might sell kits that cost a lot more$$$$ than what they are asking for....The tube variety looks affordable, not like these really overpriced 6922 or ECC88 varieties.  

Looking good, really good.

Now, you might need to disconnect the volume control from the Audiosector....less on the signal path.  How are the FTAs coming along?

[-Richard-]

Hi GHM,

Here is a company in Canada that makes...well...every type of tube amp/pre
that Albert can imagine would have currency with anyone looking for a tube amp...

I purchased his simplest tube SET preamp...the AQ-001, which uses octal tubes...
from Audiogon on DMason's very strong recommendation...
Dan had been following threads...I believe in Audio Asylum...where the posters did
shootouts with preamps costing thousands of dollars and could find almost
no difference in performance...it was declared a giant killer...

Here is a general product link:

http://www.space-tech-lab.com/Products.html

Expect a bit of time for the entire cinemascope production of images to
finally come in...here is a link to the preamplifier section:

http://www.space-tech-lab.com/PreAmpPage.html

I used this rather inexpensive preamp on 2 occasions so far...an AC member
was kind enough to send me his Wright Sound 2A3 SET's while he traversed the
lovely hills and dales of Italy, recently...lucky fellow!!! and I used the QA-001 to
drive that amp...for those interested, a very nice amp that 2A3...details galore...
cascading layering of instrumental voices, shimmering highs...wonderful inner
resolution...a bit on the cool side compared with my Wright Audio (a different
company entirely) Single Ended Pentode integrated amplifier, which is warmer
sounding...a tad less detailed but on female voices...incredible!

The QA-001...Albert sells it for $400 US dollars...was not particularly pleasant
using the stock tubes that came with it...in spite of their being the highly regarded
6NS7's...they were Sovtek's...instead I replaced them with the military JAN 6188's...
and that combination was quite good...I am still not tube savvy enough to really
understand what the characteristics of the 6188 are that made it so much more
effective with the 2A3 then the Sovtek 6NS7's (?)...

The other occasion was using the QA-001's with the Carver Professional digital
amp...did it cure the inherent problems of the Carver?...well...no...and whatever it
was supposed to add in the way of tube magic was not there...but that may have
more to do with the drawbacks of the Carver...stolid fellow that it was...then the
intrinsic charms of the QA-001...I have no way of knowing how old the Sovtek
tubes are...since I bought it used...

The link you gave to Electra Print Audio declares that they will be a vendor at the
show I will be visiting next Sunday in Arcadia...so I'll try and visit their room...

The price of the Welborne UltraPath is not cheap...especially for a kit...but then
again...it may be harder to design a really quiet, clean preamp than it is to design
a somewhat generic tube amp...Don Garber has been working on one for years...
and the price will probably be more than what he sells his legendary amps for...
however this is a guess...a dangerous thing to do in audio I realize...

Please keep us informed GHM...I am very excited to read your take on
the UltraPath should you decide to venture into the higher realms of a
battery powered tubed preamplifier...interesting as hell!

And yes...I agree with you...tubes are magical...let the analytical cool audio
crowd suffer the insults of their unconvincing chalk-on-a-blackboard musical
life...eventually...yes it will come to pass as it did for me...eventually...when the
need for rich tonal living color and ease of listening become a real need in their lives...
they will turn to tubes in some form...

Deb will not even listen to Solid State...I am not kidding here...it makes her ears bleed...
she is totally in love with tubes and when they play she smiles...nice!!!!!

Warm regards -Richard-

[-Richard-]

Oh yes GHM...I forgot to mention that I love the Remote!!!!

Deb's home office is in the same room as the audio...perhaps
17 feet away towards the back of this loft style kitchen and
living room combined...so having a remote to turn up and down the
sound would be great for her!!!!

It is no exaggeration to say that Deb listens to music sometimes
8 hours straight...higher or lower according to how much energy
the work demands...

Warm regards -Richard-

[JLM]

I'm also very interested in these developments to add tube warmth and imaging depth/density.  As I'll soon to going to a SB3 as my sole source all that's needed is a tube buffer.  From my limited research the ideal would be 12SN7 tubes (similar to 6SN7 but much cheaper) with battery power, but alas no one makes such a beasty with all four features (simple, 6SN7/12SN7, battery, and affordable).  I'm cheap, but just can't see dropping thousands into a tweak when my source plus amp cost less than a grand combined.

Have not gotten positive feedback from Singlepower to building a simple buffer and it doesn't use 12SN7 tubes. (2 strikes against)

The Wellborne doesn't appear to use 6SN7 or 12SN7 tubes while adding unneeded features and costs.  (3 strikes against)

Spacetech doesn't use 6SN7 or 12SN7 tubes either.  From my limited experience the 9 pin tubes like the 12AX7 don't add much.  (2 strikes against)

Mapletree Audio (here at Audiocircle) does offer 12SN7's but not a line stage.  OTOH their prices are much lower than Singlepower, Ultrapath, or Wellborne so for ~$700 you could just buy a preamp.  (2 strikes against)

[Vinnie R.]

All,

A month or two ago I had the opportunity to listen to the Welborne Ultrapath battery tubed preamp (the older version w/o the remote control) when a good customer of mine sent it over for some upgrades.  

I found this preamp to be ultra silent....no hum, no hiss, just a dead silence that I have never experienced before in listening to tubed preamps.  They also sell it as an assembled unit for more money.

If my memory serves me correctly, the owner sent me a few different tubes to try (can't remember all of them), and I remember the Siemens tubes sounded the best.

Regards,

[GHM]

I say WL!

The battery factor is a swinger here...and not regular, but lead sealed.  Instantaneous current from big batteries and the looks, not bad.  

The price for the preamp, is on the higher end....for some hundreds more, one can swing for some famous, trendsetters, such as First Sound, BAT, ARC and others.  But then, WL is a DIY oriented outfit, which might sell kits that cost a lot more$$$$ than what they are asking for....The tube variety looks affordable, not like these really overpriced 6922 o ...

Hi Paul..hows it going?
The FTA's are doing just fine. The First Sound looks very interesting. There was a basically new one for sell less than 100 miles from me. The price was just too steep for me right now. These are some well made preamps for sure!

I thought about the bypassing of the volume control and still may do it. After having a conversation with Steve Deckert of Deckware about the matter.He suggested it maybe possible to use the volume control as a tweaker.By adjusting the gain level I can make the images leaner or denser. Without great loss in transparency. Let's face it.. there's only a few parts inside the Gainclone to begin with. Much less than a standard amplifier or integrated. I'll start by using the volume on the integrated at full throttle.

If I decide that this is the best sound .I will bypass the pot and run the amplifier at 30dB gain. At $925.00 for the kit it ain't cheap that's for sure.
Compared to a slightly used First Sound for $2800.00... it's a steal.

You must remember your paying for so many things inside one of the dealer brand preamps. Not only markup..in this case your paying for
all the capacitor banks and filtering. Everything in the First Sound seems designed to eliminate AC noise and give quiet operation for a tubed preamp. What if you have no AC noise? All this cost isn't needed to get a quiet tubed preamp. If you do away with these unneeded parts ..what do you have left?

The cost of the unit would drop substantially.  Would this make the unit less than grade A..I don't think so. I call it trimming the fat. The less you have the less problems you will have in the future.

Good listening my friend

[GHM]

Oh yes GHM...I forgot to mention that I love the Remote!!!!

Deb's home office is in the same room as the audio...perhaps
17 feet away towards the back of this loft style kitchen and
living room combined...so having a remote to turn up and down the
sound would be great for her!!!!

It is no exaggeration to say that Deb listens to music sometimes
8 hours straight...higher or lower according to how much energy
the work demands...

Warm regards -Richard-

Hi Richard,

Thanks for all the great links! Yeah that remote is most definitely a plus.
Sounds like the wife is as much as an audiophile as you are.
I wish I could go to this Audio Show...being on the other side of the country makes this a no go . I look forward to your juicy descriptions of the gear. I also respect your opinions and await your reviews impatiently.

[Dave G]

JLM wrote:

Mapletree Audio (here at Audiocircle) does offer 12SN7's but not a line stage.

JLM,

The Mapletree Audio Line 2A can use either 12SN7s or 6SN7s.  Isn't the Line 2A a line stage?  http://www.mapletreeaudio.com/line2.htm  

Dave

[GHM]

I'm also very interested in these developments to add tube warmth and imaging depth/density.  As I'll soon to going to a SB3 as my sole source all that's needed is a tube buffer.  From my limited research the ideal would be 12SN7 tubes (similar to 6SN7 but much cheaper) with battery power, but alas no one makes such a beasty with all four features (simple, 6SN7/12SN7, battery, and affordable).  I'm cheap, but just can't see dropping thousands into a tweak when my source plus amp cost less than a grand combi ...

JLM,

I agree..I'm also a cheap ass . I do want quality though without paying dealer markup . I've come to a conclusion..sometimes you do  have to spend just a little more to get a whole lot better. That's if it's spent in the right place..not in dealer markup. I've played with the 12SN7
in the past. They are tubey that's for sure. The part that gets me with some of the larger tubes..is the microphonics and tube drift. These are my pet peeves with tubed equipment. I'll give up a little tubiness to get a solid soundstage , less drifting and ghosting. I suppose it will always be a give and take somewhere. What features on the WL do you not need ?...it doesn't have many to begin with.

I think you'll find from talking to most designers that a transformer based output is as good as it gets. Your cables will become even  less of a concern with the transformers inline. This maybe why the modders out there use them as an upgrade to certain cd players and other equipment. Alex paycheck uses them in his top disc players,as well as RAM to name a few.The expense is what keeps certain manufactures from using it..because it ain't cheap . Go to the link  an check out the cost of line output transformers

http://www.electra-print.com/electracat.html. These aren't the most expensive ones either. When you get into pure silver ..we're talking nearly $1700 a pair just for them. This is what gives you better drive,bass, dynamics and presence in the music.

Cheers

[GHM]

All,

A month or two ago I had the opportunity to listen to the Welborne Ultrapath battery tubed preamp (the older version w/o the remote control) when a good customer of mine sent it over for some upgrades.  

I found this preamp to be ultra silent....no hum, no hiss, just a dead silence that I have never experienced before in listening to tubed preamps.  They also sell it as an assembled unit for more money.

If my memory serves me correctly, the owner sent me a few different tubes to try (can't remember all of them), and I remember the Siemens tubes sounded the best.

Regards,

As always thanks Vinnie for the mini review.I agree the Siemens are terrific tubes. Very clear and precise with tight bass. I still have a custom Teac I need to send over. Once I get some of this other stuff out of the way. I will send the unit to you to finish up for me.

Glad the battery powered guru has heard the unit. By the way what kind of mods do you perform on the previous models of the WL ultrapath?

Thanks

[-Richard-]

Hi JLM,

I am sympathetic to your wish to add tube warmth to your musical life...

However, that is not entirely what a well implemented tube circuit design
accomplishes for me...musically speaking of course...

Much too much to go into here...however I am referring to a palpable "presence"
in the instrumental life that is somewhat ephemeral...it is not easily diagnosed in
the usual audiophile concrete/linguistic terms...

I am mentioning this because I am wondering outloud if that kind of magic can
be the result of simply "adding" tube warmth to another kind of circuit topology...

Here is where our constant investigations and careful listening sessions with
different circuit designs plays such a vital part in our decision making...

In a very real sense we have become incredibly well educated
in what is possible to experience in our reproduced music...

We are talking about a form of self-knowledge here...the only really important
kind of knowledge in absolute terms......and it may be that the "potential" of what
is possible is the real engine that drives our desire to "get at" that perfect balance
of sonic characteristics that we feel is embedded in the original recordings...

Adding...as a function of process...may not be the answer here...although I
readily admit that I do not know that for certain...and I will never allow myself to
form an absolute opinion on this matter, or any other if I can help it...
I do not like finding myself in the hell of fixed ideas that quickly grow
stale...only to find that my inner life has grown stale along with it...
and then I must rebel against myself to liberate myself from my own
conceptual contrivances...a nasty business that...

How to elicit the magic...or in some cases...how to keep the magic one
has managed to discover...among the jungle of possibilities offered to us
without plunging oneself into the tiresome travail of constant comparisons seems
like a real concern for us...precisely, I think, because we are so sensitive to
changes in sonic temperatures and other finely tuned characteristics that
most non-critical listeners simply do not hear...

It is as if we have placed ourselves in an entirely different dimension of
listening...something so finely tuned as to suggest another species of
human being entirely...the foundation perhaps of what made Stradivarius
so susceptible to not only the wood and shape of the violin he was designing,
but the very lacquer he used...and perhaps ultimately the time of day his
instrument was played...

Right now for example I am very interested in the 45 tube...how it is heated...
how it is driven...seems like a worthwhile area of investigation for me...
Yamamoto San drives his 45 SET with a pentode tube circuit for example...
and that impacts on the 45 in a very different way from say Don Garber's
approach...

In the Fi mono blocks, for example, one must change the rectifier tube to
accommodate the change from 2A3 to 45 tubes...not in the Yamamoto design
however...no change in the rectifier tube is necessary...

Splitting hairs to be sure...a tempest in a teapot?

Only if ones listening priorities are not affected...mine are...

It is true that Deb is a far more sensitive listener then I am...and in a very
real sense she has helped me to hear more sensitively...I am not exaggerating
when I say that her tolerance for certain sonic aberrations like a certain tonal
opaqueness or hardness...a flattening of the musical landscape...and spiky/glassy
high frequencies...are simply out of the question for her...amplifiers have come
and gone quickly in this house...it takes her only a matter of minutes
to decide whether or not she can tolerate the amplifiers inherent faults...
if the sound brings on suffering or not...I am not talking about the lengthy
and often frustrating burn-in periods new electronic appliances need to relax
and open up...Deb is as prepared as I am to undergo those ordeals...but once
the listening begins for real she is completely attentive...

Tubes do more than add warmth...in the best implementations of classic
designs based on circuitry from the 1930's and into the 40's, tubes can
deliver the music whole and intact...with an exquisite inner life that can
vibrate ones nerve endings like the strings of a cello...

High efficiency super fast speakers are needed to translate that signal
into musical life...any crossovers...or a cabinet that is not finely tuned
to the drivers potential...will bleed some of that magic away...we are talking
about a sonic dimension so delicate...so elusive...so subtle...that "more"
in the usual sense of "additions" equals "less" in the purest musical terms...

I am still using the Visaton B200's in Open Baffle configuration...thanks again
to DMason's tireless investigations and his willingness to share his findings
with us...and what I am hearing with well implemented tube circuitry has no
equivalent in any other set up I have ever heard...simply intoxicating...

Just sharing thoughts with everyone...

Warm regards -Richard-

[GHM]

Thanks Richard for sharing your thoughts and expriences. I have some more good news to share as well. From the help of a good friend with great ideas. I've asked Mikhail of Single Power if he could configure a headamp like the PPX3 to serve as a integrated with active pre-outs. His response "We can configure a PPX3 type amplifier with power tubes as outputs to deliver up to 4 wpc". This means it could be used as a integrated or a tubed preamp. This is pretty cool to say the least. This way if you used drivers like the B200 or drivers of  much higher sensitivity. You could possibly have a very musical low wattage setup, with a very versatile little amplifier. What do you fellows think of that?

[JLM]

Dave,

Sorry to confuse, I meant that Mapletree doesn't offer a tube buffer.


GHM,

That's great news from Singlepower.  I'm only looking for a tube buffer (unity gain, one pair of inputs, one pair of outputs, no volume control) to provide some organics, solidity, imaging definition, and enlarged soundscape.


Richard,

I think I know what you mean, I just lack most of the words/time to express it as well as you do.  By most sane standards my system is very good indeed, but I know it could be better, more organic and with improved imaging.  I've heard a Moth SET/45, very sensual.