[SWG255]

Woodsyi's system sounded excellent all evening, no matter what we played through it, or which components were substituted driving the RM40 ribbons from 275 Hz. and up. The complexity of this system with a Crown K-2 driving the larger subs on the bottom, the RM40 woofers driven by ICE amps, and the Extreme Hurricanes and "guest amps" driving the ribbons made it difficult to do comparisons between the various amps.  However i felt there were some consistent differences audible between the Hurricanes, the Blue Circle BC-202 and the Audio Mirror amps.

We listened to both CD and vinyl sources, concentrating on some fine classical and operatic music of Woodsyi's, the "Best of Neil Young" LP and a Bill Evans Trio LP brought by Scott, and some excellent bluegrass CDs brought by D.S.

Woodsyi has done a superb job balancing his system for his favorite music, especially for his favorite opera singer, whose name escapes me right now. She has a rather delicate voice, and Woodsyi said he worked hard to get his system to present her voice in as natural and non-irritating way as possible. he has succeeded handsomely.
With the Extreme Hurricanes in the system everything was in balance, and her voice floated in space neither being too forward or recessed, and with no sense of harshness or over-emphasis of sibilence. When we put the Blue Circle amp in the system, we found that the sound came more forward, and it took some adjustments of the Marchand crossover levels to bring the balance back into line. It seems as though the BC-202 has more gain than the Extreme Hurricanes. Once balanced, the orchestral music had more power, and i thought the sound was more "focused", or perhaps just a bit more forward. However, the singer's voice was not as delicate, warm or "real" sounding. With a Bill Evans Classic Records LP, the power of the piano seemed better expressed with the BC amp, but again I felt the Hurricanes sounded warmer and more relaxed. Another oddity was that with the BC-202 in the system, there was more mid-bass energy and if the amp were to be left in the system for any length of time, I would adjust the putty on the RM40's passive radiators to bring the mid-bass back into balance. This mid-bass emphasis was most audible with the Bill Evans LP, and with "The Vistas" by Bad Plus.  This seems to contradict our observations that the BC-202 had more gain than the Extreme Hurricanes, since one cause for the observed mid-bass emphasis would be that it had less gain, making the ICE amps seem louder driving the RM40 woofers. To decide which was correct we would have needed to listen to more recordings an have more time to evaluate the amps while doing more adjustments of the Marchand crossovers. It would have been interesting to hear the BC-202 driving the RM40s full-range, but no one, especially Woodsyi, wanted to do that much surgery on his system.  

The surprise of the evening for me was the little Audio Mirror tube amps. They are truly excellent for being at least half the price of the BC and maybe one-fourth the price of the Extreme Hurricanes. They certainly didn't sound like 40 watt amps driving the ribbons. They had a nice warm sound, maybe a bit "dark" compared to the Hurricanes. I don't mean that in a pejorative way, it just seemed that with the little AM amps in Woodsyi's system one concentrated more on the lower midrange and upper bass tones in the music. The Audio Mirrors were not as extended on top as either of the costlier amps, and also didn't sound as open or do as well retrieving ambience queues from recordings. This was only noticeable by comparison though. By themselves they were very satisfying. With the bluegrass CDs, the sense of instrumental detail and warmth made for fun listening.

In Woodsyi's system, as he has it configured, and with his favorite music, the Extreme Hurricanes were the best sounding of the three amplifiers. I liked the BC-202 well enough that I'm going to try it in my system, driving my RM40s full-range for a couple days, before returning it to Phil in New York, if that's alright with him. I certainly would recommend the Audio Mirror tube monos to anyone looking for a good $2000 amp for either efficient speakers or for driving the top end of a bi- or tri-amped system.

[Dave G]

Thanks for the write up on the amp comparisons from yesterday's get together.  It makes me even more sorry that I had to leave early and miss the fun.

Do you know or does anyone else know how to get in contact with D.S.?  I'd like to know which bluegrass CDs he was showing off -- bluegrass and traditional country are some of my favorite types of music and I'm always interested in new stuff.

Dave

[SWG255]

I don't remember  everything we listened to, and I certainly don't remember all the specifics of the classical and operatic music Woodsyi played, but here goes:

One of the bluegrass CDs we played was "Bourbon and Rosewater" on Chessky, the other's title is too hazy in my memory right now.

The predominant LP listening was done with the third side of the Neil Young "Greatest Hits" LP on Classic Records, and the Bill Evans "Sunday at the Vanguard" also, I think, on Classic Records.

One of the classical CDs was the amazing "Romeo and Juliet" disc mentioned in verious threads here on AC for its very natural sound and VERY WIDE dynamic range.  I hope Woodsyi will chime in here with more particulars on these CDs and the lovely opera singer we kept coming back to for our comparisons.

We also listened to The Bad Plus "The Vistas" on CD, a Telarc sampler brought by DaveG I think, some T. Rex (the band, not the dinosaur) on LP, which Woodsyi's daughter, Rachel really dug, and some Joan Armatrading and Valorie Carter tracks I brought on my "speaker shopping" CD sampler.

BTW, I wonder if it makes sense to move this thread to another circle, like "Two Channel" where it might get more exposure to the rest of the AC membership?

Thanks for the write up on the amp comparisons from yesterday's get together.  It makes me even more sorry that I had to leave early and miss the fun.

Do you know or does anyone else know how to get in contact with D.S.?  I'd like to know which bluegrass CDs he was showing off -- bluegrass and traditional country are some of my favorite types of music and I'm always interested in new stuff.

Dave

[PhilNYC]

BTW, I wonder if it makes sense to move this thread to another circle, like "Two Channel" where it might get more exposure to the rest of the AC membership?

I think as long as you guys are active in posting your comments here, it will get enough "Latest Posts" exposure to the rest of the AC community...

[woodsyi]

When we finally got around to auditioning the BC202 and Audio Mirror Series Eargasm amps, there were only 4 of us left.  Next time I host a meeting, I will try to get going with the serious comparisons earlier but how can you interrupt a good party…

It is too bad that our local guest whose wery name is an AC taboo can’t post here since he was one of the four.  I want to go on record by saying that it would be good to restore his access to the circle as he once again displayed that he is an invaluable source of knowledge with keen ears.  Everyone who was there would agree with me that he is a good guy even if he sports that Horshak hairdo.  Now back on topic.

I have been working on fine-tuning my system for the meet for a few weeks.  As some of you know, VMPS RM40s have adjustable pots and putties that will affect the sound.  Add a pair of  VMPS larger subs with putties and a 3 three way active crossover and I have a lot of adjustability with the set up.  While it give me a lot of fine-tuning ability, it also takes a long time to tweak it to get it right.  Crown K2 drives 2 subs up to 80Hz, eAR 1001s drive the woofers from 80 Hz to 280 Hz and the ribbons are driven by Extreme Hurricanes running triode outputting 100w from ~ 275Hz on up.  I have the Marchand high pass for the ribbons at 200Hz (24db/oct) to get out the way of the passive x-over with TRT caps which I understand is at 275 Hz (12db/act) So there is a little of double filtering below 200 Hz.   I have played with the putty adjustment on all 4 passive radiators coupled with room acoustic treatment to get the bass and mid bass just right for me.  For me the mid bass is critical in getting the vocal tonality right.  Norah Jones loses her sultriness without the proper mid bass and, of course, the baritone voice just won’t be right if mid bass if off.  The ribbons, however, are the heart and soul of my system.  They are what make it special for me.  I have settled on the ‘Canes to drive the ribbons because they provide the right harmonic presentation that give me goose bumps on vocals and acoustic instrumental presentations.  Over anything else they provide an emotional connection.  When my favorite Diva  Ileana Cortrubas sings “Alfredo, Alfredo, di questo core” to Germont at the end of act two in La Traviata or the finale where she calls out to Anina on her deathbed, I should feel a gut wrenching heart ache.   I want an audio equivalent of the famous Greta Garbo death scene in Camille, but her voice is so delicate with brittleness on the upper register that she can’t be heard on harsh sounding system. With the extreme hurricanes on the RM40 ribbons, I get that.  

BC202 comes with it’s own none IEC detachable power cord.  It was plugged in directly to the wall into a dedicated 20 amp line just like the ‘Canes.  Same interconnects (RS Audio Illume) were used.  We had it loaded with another speakers to power up for a ½ an hours before connecting.  Immediate responses were “thin, focused, boomy, and just right.” Try to make sense of that.  Even with the level adjustment on the x-over we couldn’t get the right balance.  We didn’t have the time nor did I have the inclination to mess with the damping on the woofers.  So what we heard was not at BC202’s best.  The highs were more defined.  It wasn’t so much that it resolved more information; rather it was providing a sharper delineation between notes.  Mid range sounded thinner to me but it may have had to do with the woofers overpowering the ribbons.  Gone was the mid range magic of the ‘Canes on Cortrubas’ singing.

Audio Mirror Series Eargasm mono blocks puts out 40 watts each.  With the same setting, they were more in balance with the woofers -- not quite right but pretty close.  They had a voice of their own that was appealing.  They did not extend as high but what they did they did with aplomb.  The low mids were more plump.  I bet they would be good with altos.  

We put the Hurricanes back and listened again.  The woofers came back tight.  After warming back up they presented the best overall balance.  The bottom line is all the amps were good.  None of them would offend any sensitive ears.  Best bang for the buck may be the Audio Mirrors.   I also suspect the BC202 is a better full range amp than the Hurricanes (even at ultra linear 200w) or the Audio Mirror.  SWG255 will be able to give a better description as he runs his RM40s full range and he took BC202 with him.   As for me, the Hurricanes do it right where I care the most.

[zybar]

BTW, I wonder if it makes sense to move this thread to another circle, like "Two Channel" where it might get more exposure to the rest of the AC membership?

In general it is probably better to leave the thread here.  If something more formal on a specific topic or piece of gear is wanted, you could go to one of the other circles.

This is pretty much what we have done with the NYC Audio Rave.

George

[PhilNYC]

FWIW - the BC202 definitely takes more than a 1/2 hour to warm up.  Even BC's solid state stuff takes at least an hour to start sounding right...

[woodsyi]

FWIW - the BC202 definitely takes more than a 1/2 hour to warm up.  Even BC's solid state stuff takes at least an hour to start sounding right...

Phil, thanks of loaning us the amp to do a shoot out.  I read up on the BC amps to get a sense of what they are about and I see that what I heard contradict many reviewers who writes that BC amps are especially good in midrange.  Once again I really think the difference is due to my peculiar set up.  It sounds like Gilbert took extraordinary care to balance his amps to run a full range pair of speakers.  On BC206, which would be a better match to the extreme hurricanes price wise, I read that it really brings out the midrange to bring life to Eva Cassidy's voice while keeping bass and treble in harmonious balance.  I think cutting them out at 275 Hz adversly affects the midrange tonality.  We should get a better read when SWG255 runs it full way on his RM40's.  I will see if we can get together with my opera CD to check it out.  Of course, the room and front end will be different.  He has a killer digital front end --highly modded SCD1 -- which would put my stock Northstar to shame especially in SACD mode...

[JoshK]

We ran the BC202 or 204, don't remember which, on my RM40s full range at a Rave and I and quite a few others were quite impressed with the sound, most noteably the midrange.  It sounds like something wasn't happy with your biamp setup.  I've never heard your 'canes though.

[SWG255]

Before providing my initial thoughts on the BC-202 in my system, I want to set the record straight on the music we listened to at Woodsyi's and to thank him for providing more details on his favorite Diva and her recordings.

The other bluegrass Cd we auditioned was "Skip Hop and Wobble":

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000000F33/ref=pd_sim_music_5/102-7107596-6340101?v=glance&s=music

The Bill Evans LP was from Analog Productions, the 45 rpm version, not Classic. (Thanks Scott) I don't remember the T. Rex album we listened to, I'm not as familiar with the stuff they did that didn't get much play on FM radio way back when.

As for the Blue Circle BC-202, first my thanks to Phil Lam for letting me audition the amplifier in my system for a week before i have to send it back. Scott and i hooked it up last night and turned it on, listening to some Neil Young "Prarie Wind" on CD before really seriously listening. At least that was what we thought we'd be doing. Although the amp did noticeably improve in openess and dynamic reproduction after playing for about 30 minutes, we knew this amp was special pretty much right away. First, it is absolutely dead quiet. No hum, buzz or hiss audible through my RM40 woofers with this amp in my system, even with my ear right up against the woofer at the top of the cabinet. My 8th Nerve modified Carver ZR-1600 always presents a little hum audible from about 6 inches away from that 10" cone. This absolutely black background allowed us to hear some details in the Neil young CD neither of us had heard before in our systems. In particular, at the end of track one, Neil lets the guitar fade out naturally. The BC-202 not only allowed that to be heard as the note faded away, but after the guitar note fades, neil moves slightly, and one hears a very soft rustle of his clothing. We both heard this at the same instant and up until then didn't realize the fade-out included this sound.

The BC-202 presents a solid and three-dimensional soundstage, with very fine lateral balance. With the re-mastered "Waiting for Columbus" by Little Feat (on Rhino), synthesizer lines which one has to strain to hear in the left channel on "Fat Man in the Bathtub" are easily heard and followed. In addition, there's something really special about the bass reproduction of this amplifier. It isn't that it has really powerful bass, it has really musical bass. it's as if the bass notes are presented in the proper relationship with the rest of the spectrum. They have just the right amount of initial attack, bloom and "hang-over". In Woodsyi's system we found the mid-bass somewhat problematic with the BC-202 installed, in my system, running the VMPS speakers full-range, I find the mid-bass to lower bass absolutely glorius. The best overall I've heard in my system.

Voices are also rendered with excellent detail and warmth with the right blend of sibilence without sounding too brittle or bright. I didn't listen to enough discs last night to decide whether the reproduction is in league with the Hurricane amps at Woodsyi's, but for half the price, I'd say one gets at least 90% of the quality.

I need to listen to the BC-202 with more recordings, and more musical genres, which I'll do the remainder of the week. if anyone in the MAAC area wants to come hear it, please PM me and we'll hopefully be able to sit down together and listen. Phil wants the amp back "in a week", so right now I'm reluctantly planning to send it back on Saturday. If I had the money right now,based on one evening's listening,  I'd probably keep it though.

[woodsyi]

Sell your Carver and buy the BC.  Phil has been paying around $90 oneway shipping.  I am sure you can work a dealer demo, AC member and generally nice guy discount from Phil.     I do want to hear it full range on your RM40s.

[DTB300]

I didn't listen to enough discs last night to decide whether the reproduction is in league with the Hurricane amps at Woodsyi's, but for half the price, I'd say one gets at least 90% of the quality.

With this statement, it sounds like a no-brainer to me  In Audio purchasing more expensive does not always mean the best way to go.  Evaluating what we get for the money we spend is critical.  And with the money saved on the deal, look at how many more CD/Albums you could by

Dan

[SWG255]

I did some more listening last night, and I continue to be impressed with the BC-202. It isn't quite as effortless and relaxed as I remember the Extreme Hurricanes sounded in Woodsyi's system, but to my ears it sounds a little less "diffuse" too. I hope Woodsyi and i will have  more definitive thoughts after our joint listening session tomorrow. He's bringing over a couple of the discs we used on Saturday, so we can hear the same music with the BC-202 in my system.

Even at this point I feel the BC-202 ranks up there with the best sounding amplifiers I've spent any time auditioning, although these were not in my system,  such as the Ayre V-5, the Pass X.250, the Conrad-Johnson Premier 350 and Woodsyi's Extreme Hurricanes. With any top-tier audio components, "best" will be in the ear of the listener. This goes double for judgements of value , because no matter how one looks at it, $5,200 is a lot of money. Measured against the musical satisfaction provided by the likes of the BC-202, it may well be a bargain.

More later.
 

I didn't listen to enough discs last night to decide whether the reproduction is in league with the Hurricane amps at Woodsyi's, but for half the price, I'd say one gets at least 90% of the quality.

With this statement, it sounds like a no-brainer to me  In Audio purchasing more expensive does not always mean the best way to go.  Evaluating what we get for the money we spend is critical.  And with the money saved on the deal, look at how many more CD/Albums you could by

Dan

[PhilNYC]

It seems as though the BC-202 has more gain than the Extreme Hurricanes. ...

Btw - I mentioned this MAAC gathering and the results with Gilbert at Blue Circle, and he pointed out that the BC202 gain is 21.5dB, which is much lower than the Hurricanes at 40db of gain. I assume the Audio Mirror also has higher gain than the BC202?  Given this, I'm a little confused here...can you confirm the crossover gain settings that were used?

[SWG255]

We were confused because when we first put the BC-202 into the system, the sound was "brighter" and "more forward" than the Canes. Our first reaction to this was to reduce the level of the signal feeding the BC-202 from the Marchand crossover. I didn't make this adjustment, you'll have to get particulars from Woodsyi. After making this adjustment, the sound was more balanced, hence the initial reaction that the BC-202 had more gain. Note that we later observed the boosted mid-bass response and were having difficulty understanding why this should be occurring. Obviously the BC-202 didn't have as much gain as the amps Woodsyi uses to drive the woofers in the RM40s. This underscores the difficulties inherent in adjusting what is essentially a tri-amped system when gear is substituted.

I'm also glad you've raised this point because I've been scratching my head wondering why I have to turn up my Premier 18LS more than "10 volume" units to get satisfactory listening levels as compared to my ZR-1600. (The 18LS has stepped resistor volume controls, with digital readout of the volume controls' setting. This makes adjusting absolute volume positions on it very predictable, so the lower perceived loudness in my room has to be attributable to the BC-202's LOWER input sensitivity.)

This low input sensitivity might actually be a problem for some because if they're using passive preamplification, or as i have, have a component with lower than average output, there might be problems driving the BC-202 to full output. My VSE modified Sony SCD-1 has lower output than the stock SCD-1 and i always have trouble volume-matching it to the other component sources in my system. To be fair though, I have not yet felt I haven't been able to get the sound loud enough, i just have to turn up the preamp more than I'm used to doing.

It seems as though the BC-202 has more gain than the Extreme Hurricanes. ...

Btw - I mentioned this MAAC gathering and the results with Gilbert at Blue Circle, and he pointed out that the BC202 gain is 21.5dB, which is much lower than the Hurricanes at 40db of gain. I assume the Audio Mirror also has higher gain than the BC202?  Given this, I'm a little confused here...can you confirm the crossover gain settings that were used?

[PhilNYC]

This low input sensitivity might actually be a problem for some because if they're using passive preamplification, or as i have, have a component with lower than average output, there might be problems driving the BC-202 to full output. My VSE modified Sony SCD-1 has lower output than the stock SCD-1 and i always have trouble volume-matching it to the other component sources in my system. To be fair though, I have not yet felt I haven't been able to get the sound loud enough, i just have to turn up the preamp more than I'm used to doing.

Part of Blue Circle's design philosophy is to have higher gain in the preamp and lower gain in the amp; one of the results from this is a lower noise floor (thus your comment about the BC202 being dead silent)...obviously there is more to it, but that is one of the benefits...

[woodsyi]

I checked with Doug to review what we did and try to sort out what exactly happened.  First let's get the facts on the table.  These are the input sensitivies for each amp curtesy of Doug:  2.66V for BC202, 1.7V for the 'Canes and  1.2V for Audio Mirrors.  Modwright preamp has a gain of aproximately 15.  My usual gain setting for the crossover is at 0 for subs (K2 has volume control and dual input sensitivity for adjustment which were used), +1db for the woofers and 0 for the ribbons(the pots are all the way out for the tweeter at 5 O'clock and at 4 O'clock for the mids).  The four initial reactions were thin, focused, boomy and just right.  

Thin is understandable in light of input sensitivity.  Focused means that BC202 is more incisive at highend even at a lower volume.  Boominess, another input sensitivity issue.  Scott's "just right" means he is a bass hound and he had been calling for more rock all night.  It's understandable why he would want to drown out the singing with drums and bass guitars given the quality voices in this genre.

In trying to balance, we lowered the woofers by 3 db.  We never increased the ribbons because we though it was "bright enough".  I think I would've had to turn down the tweeter ribbon pot and increase the x-over gain on the ribbons to balance.  The subs were left alone which should have been reduce as well.  With the amp change, there was also the damping issue with the woofers.  I couldn't get over the looseness of the bass (since I have been spending a lot of time to get the 8 woofers to sound just right for months) to appreciate the finer attributes of BC amp.  It will be interesing to hear how they sound tonight with the same tracks.