VMPS vs. Martin Logan speakers

stieger · « **Reply #20 on:** 26 Oct 2005, 08:48 pm »

Hi all,

I'm going Friday to VMPS to listen to the system - I'm hoping he'll do a theater setup, as I don't do 2 channel music listening - I like watching flicks...

Anyway, I agree with the person above indicating the ML's can get "canny" - could be my amp, not sure, but they get very "harsh" sounding and fatique me pretty quickly. Maybe I ought to treat my room and see what happens? Anyway, looking forward to the "test" drive. I'll let you know what occurs!

Best,

Stieger

ScottMayo · « **Reply #21 on:** 26 Oct 2005, 09:47 pm »

Quote from: stieger

Anyway, I agree with the person above indicating the ML's can get "canny" - could be my amp, not sure, but they get very "harsh" sounding and fatique me pretty quickly. Maybe I ought to treat my room and see what happens?

No matter what, you should treat the room if you care about the sound. Speakers are only half the equation.

rblnr · « **Reply #22 on:** 27 Oct 2005, 03:05 am »

Quote

in my book the Martin Logans show more detail, are faster

Everybody's different: the ML's I've heard sounded slow to me.

nickspicks · « **Reply #23 on:** 27 Oct 2005, 11:56 am »

i've owned SL3s...
and thought they are brutal w/upstream gear. if you hear something harsh or canny...it aint the speakers. trust me.

also, room treatments (unless you are allready in a perfect acoustical room...which is unlikely) are definately a must w/them..and probably all bi-directional speakers.
I could not get my room "right" ..which is why i got rid of mine. they were more speaker than my room could deal with w/o A LOT of treatments...and the WAF was very, very low when it came to hanging foam.

ScottMayo · « **Reply #24 on:** 27 Oct 2005, 12:48 pm »

Quote from: nickspicks

i've owned SL3s...
and thought they are brutal w/upstream gear. if you hear something harsh or canny...it aint the speakers. trust me.

also, room treatments (unless you are allready in a perfect acoustical room...which is unlikely) are definately a must w/them..and probably all bi-directional speakers.
I could not get my room "right" ..which is why i got rid of mine. they were more speaker than my room could deal with w/o A LOT of treatments...and the WAF was very, very low when it came to hanging foam.

Don't use foam. It takes way too much of it to get decent absorption, even if you use the better stuff.

My wife is considering putting out a line of "designer traps" - acoustic absorptive panels with decorator designs and fabrics - after seeing some of the fun I get into when recommending treatments for client's rooms. I don't know whether this will take off or not, but making traps that can blend with the decor might solve a lot of people's problems. What do people here think - would making traps that look like wall hangings and other art, make the whole "treatment" thing easier to swallow?

I think my wife's on to something here - no one better to address a WAF issue than a W - but I'm interested in opinions.

stieger · « **Reply #25 on:** 27 Oct 2005, 10:09 pm »

(ScottMayer),

I agree, I'm planning on making some for my room with some fabric from a local store - fortunately the fabric matches my room color.

I think you could have something if the price point isn't as horrendous as those available from the companies that tout there's as the best, and of course price it that way...

Best,

Stieger

cbartolomei · « **Reply #26 on:** 27 Oct 2005, 10:25 pm »

All,

I hadn't planned on posting anymore on this or any other subject(s) on the VMPS board, but due to the thread I figured I should toss in my 2 cents. You see, I have recently sold my RM/X's and purchased a pair of Martin Logan Summits.

When I decided to sell my RM/X's I hadn't heard the ML's. But I had reached the end of the road with the RM/X's and decided to find a new "girl" to date. I have dated many speakers in the past including: Apogee Duetta Sigs, Sound Lab M-1s, Genesis 201's and many others. All of the speakers I've owned have had their strengths and weaknesses compared to all the others. The ML's and the RM/X's also have their strengths and weaknesses compared to each other.

To my ears in my room with my equipment:
The ML's have tighter, more articulate, more tune-ful bass. The RM/X's have more bass... dynamically and can be driven harder to make up for room anomalies with devices like TACT and DEQX EQ boxes. And the RM/X's can be driven by a bass amp of your choice- Like my Spectral DMA 150. The ML's are forced to use ML's internal amps. But in-spite of the (ultimate) greater bass loudness, the ML's seem more linear dynamically. Neither has bottom end as good as the Gen 201's.

The ML's mid-range is far more transparent and articulate.

The RM/X's seem to have a clearer extreme top-end. Maybe the mids and tweeters of the RM/X's were an easier load for my ARC VT-200.

The ML's create a better soundstage with instruments and vocalists spread across a much better 3D soundstage with air and front to back depth. Image focus isn't as tight as with the RM/X's.

The RM/X's are heavy as F#ck. Actually twice that heavy.

The RM/X's have a designer that offers (as demonstrated many times) upgrades and mods. The ML's are what they are and probably will never have an upgrade modification.

Brian is available for Q & A here. ML, Sound Lab, Genesis????

NealH · « **Reply #27 on:** 28 Oct 2005, 12:09 am »

Nice job describing the differences "cbartolomei". And now for the SL M-1's?

cbartolomei · « **Reply #28 on:** 28 Oct 2005, 12:37 pm »

I couldn't ever get the M-1's to work for me in my room. The M-1's that I had were the last generation... not the current ones that are easier to drive and more efficient. I tried to drive them with my ARC VT-200, my Spectral, and even a friends 200 wpc OTL mono's. No dice. I even tried a Paul Speltz zero with the tube amps. No dice. I added 2 Vandersteen subs. No dice. I have a large room and demand a smooth to slightly elevated 25-40Hz response- delivered at slightly under live Jazz, Blues, Rock levels.

I danced the M-1's all around my room but still couldn't optimize the rear wave cancellation and it's affect on bottom end and lower midrange. I kept clipping my amps. Trust me- it takes a lot to (audibly) clip a DMA-150! I sold them and bought the RM/X's. Efficient, easy to drive and no back wave. Ahhhh.

But on the favorable side for the M-1's- within a small dynamic window they were very transparent. Especially with the OTLs.

NealH · « **Reply #29 on:** 28 Oct 2005, 02:24 pm »

Interesting comments. I have spent a lot of time with their U2's and Atmasphere MA-2s. In a smaller room than would at first seem appropriate, the sound is generally outstanding. Full, very pure and holographic. It exhudes a real "reach out and touch me" perspective to instruments and vocalists. Truly disarming with some vocalists. But, yes, the bass let you know it was there. There was a node or two and the room gain was significant.

In a very large room, where they now reside, the sound can be anemic in the lower register. Perhaps this is the same cancellation effect that you experienced. Fortunately the bass response can be tailored a bit with the jumpers on the crossover box. Still, I will don't think it has quite the upper bass fullness that the smaller room provides. I ran a set of measurements with a decible meter and get about a 2 - 3 db dip around the 200-300Hz range. This correlates with my listening impression.

Anyway, that midrange remains to die for regardless of which room it is in. I will have to put the new Summit on my list for audition. Just about every comment that I have read on it was very positive.

BrunoB · « **Reply #30 on:** 28 Oct 2005, 04:44 pm »

Quote from: Florian

... The scale, micro dynamics, transiants the complete musical picture for me only exists in large planars. ...

Florian,

allow me to disagree on this point. From memory, I can say that my 626R (small panels) in my "Sound Cocoon" had better microdynamics than the Apogee Diva (large panels) in your room. My explanation is simple: I had an almost anacheoic environnement. Reflections on the walls blurr the sound and hide the intimate sonic texture of musical instruments.

Bruno

lifewithmusic · « **Reply #31 on:** 28 Oct 2005, 04:51 pm »

Florian -- which capicitors do you have in your RM-30s and 626R speakers?

Florian · « **Reply #32 on:** 28 Oct 2005, 05:00 pm »

Quote from: BrunoB

Quote from: Florian
... The scale, micro dynamics, transiants the complete musical picture for me only exists in large planars. ...

Florian,

allow me to disagree on this point. From memory, I can say that my 626R (small panels) in my "Sound Cocoon" had better microdynamics than the Apogee Diva (large panels) in your room. My explanation is simple: I had an almost anacheoic environnement. Reflections on the walls blurr the sound and hide the intimate sonic texture of musical instruments.

Bruno

I take that as an insult, seriously. When you come the next time we can run the 626, the 30's anything you want and we can compare them to the DIVA. There is no way in the world that they can even be compared on any level regardless of material. You heard the DIVA on a 45wpc amplifier since all my big amps and preamps where not here yet, there is no way in the world that you can make this comment. Besised, after listening to my DIVAS with "joke" equipment you came to the conclusion that it was the best system you ever heard.

Driving the DIVA which is in the same league as the Infinity IRS-V, Duntech 2001, Alon Grand Exotica with a 45wpc amp is not even close to what you can get with serious equipment. Even the Ampzilla 2000s are the bear minimum which to use with these speakers and they are sonically totaly mushy and foggy.

When you come the next time, we will MEASURE and compare the speakers. Will take a Maggie, a VMPS RM30 and the 626 and you will be suprised. I have here now 2 Ampzilla 2000Monoblocks, a stereo block, the Sphinx Project 18 and i can get us a Krell KSA250B Europe. Wadia DAC, 2 turntables and the same Transport as the Wadia 860. I have measured them all and tried them on equipment well over 100K and even mentioning them in the same sentence is a audiophile sin.

Florian · « **Reply #33 on:** 28 Oct 2005, 05:05 pm »

Quote from: lifewithmusic

Florian -- which capicitors do you have in your RM-30s and 626R speakers?

Good question, i didnt take the 626 apart yet. I will take them apart and take pictures soon and will measure them in the room at listening distance. The 30's and the 626. I already measured the 30's once with the tact equipment but i erased the results which were not good at all. But this was in the very beginning and the room sucked, so i will measure them again.

The 626 sound very good for their price and size and i like them a lot more then the 30's. Pictures, measurement data and parts will come soon. I am curious whats inside as well.

Flo

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #34 on:** 28 Oct 2005, 05:28 pm »

I doubt anyone would be unhappy with the CD version of the RM 30 in any regard. The bass in particular is much better. The 626 also takes a big leap forward in its CD configuration.

Watch this space for more details!

Florian · « **Reply #35 on:** 28 Oct 2005, 05:29 pm »

Quote from: Brian Cheney

I doubt anyone would be unhappy with the CD version of the RM 30 in any regard. The bass in particular is much better. The 626 also takes a big leap forward in its CD configuration.

Watch this space for more details!

I am really looking forward to it and asked this quite a few times before. When can we see this in europe?

Flo

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #36 on:** 28 Oct 2005, 05:33 pm »

Availability begins when my cabinetmaker delivers. He's had great difficulty making the waveguides and I don't want to start a tutorial all over again with someone new.

I will keep everyone posted. Right now we are producing wave guides by hand and just shipped a pair of RM1a with such attached. I await owner reaction.

ScottMayo · « **Reply #37 on:** 28 Oct 2005, 05:38 pm »

Quote from: Brian Cheney

Right now we are producing wave guides by hand and just shipped a pair of RM1a with such attached. I await owner reaction.

I would be very happy to receive the first ones adapted for the RM/x.

dubravko · « **Reply #38 on:** 28 Oct 2005, 05:39 pm »

I now wonder is this the end of my system as Trinaural?

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #39 on:** 28 Oct 2005, 06:07 pm »

We will be doing Trinaural AND Constant Directivity at CES in January, St Tropez Hotel rm 1303.

B