Bolder Mensa and Nixon TubeDac comparison

Hantra · « **Reply #20 on:** 18 Apr 2003, 05:35 pm »

Quote

hantra, how'd ya ever figure out how to wire yer fono-cartridge outta phase? didja find it still was yust like the outta-phase i'c's - not as good as the speaker wires?

Some smarty pants over at the Vinyl Circle told me.

I did not find the same degredation when doing this. Then again, I have no clue what this vinyl rig is supposed to sound like. I just got it, and have no idea what I'm doing. hehe

Hey Andy,

I agree with you about live performances. No doubt what you are saying is true. At the same time, borrow a cymbal from someone and take it into your listening room so you can tell the difference between insane harmonic extension, and digital noise. Your DAC is really good, and I enjoyed listening to it. I believe it had the least digital noise of all DAC's we tested except for the SN. If I wasn't in the SN, I'd want the DAC you have over any I have heard in my price range.

L8r,

B

Tyson · « **Reply #21 on:** 18 Apr 2003, 05:44 pm »

I don't think the DIO upsamples or overamples, but perhaps I am wrong. To be honest, it doesn't really matter to me, I'm only concerned with the actual sound that reaches my ears. I've been listening to the tubedac exclusively for the past couple of days, and like I said before, it's very good. I'll keep it plugged in till sunday when I'll do some extensive, critical listening again with both DAC's.

Marbles,
I'm using the external synch.

Nelgan,
The tube is removed in the Mensa, and the tube warmth knob is disconnected.

Tsunami,
I agree, it's impossible to get the "Abolute Sound" in the home. My goal is to get close while still having the sound tailored to my preference. No point in ending up with a sound that you hate, merely because someone claims that it is more "accurate". How do they know

Hantra · « **Reply #22 on:** 18 Apr 2003, 06:16 pm »

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My goal is to get close while still having the sound tailored to my preference. No point in ending up with a sound that you hate, merely because someone claims that it is more "accurate". How do they know

I wish everyone could realize that! There would be a lot less animosity in audio.

B

BikeWNC · « **Reply #23 on:** 18 Apr 2003, 06:23 pm »

Tyson wrote:

Quote

I agree, it's impossible to get the "Abolute Sound" in the home. My goal is to get close while still having the sound tailored to my preference. No point in ending up with a sound that you hate, merely because someone claims that it is more "accurate". How do they know

Exactly! And only time and experience (and the depths of your pocket book) can help you get there.

Hantra,
I really wasn't comparing the virtues of one DAC over another. When it comes to reproducing the live experience at home, there is no truth in the reproduction. Perhaps what we enjoy most about live music may have less to do with the actual notes hitting our ears than the vibe we catch by sharing the experience with others.

Xi-Trum · « **Reply #24 on:** 18 Apr 2003, 06:32 pm »

Quote from: Tyson

The tube is removed in the Mensa, and the tube warmth knob is disconnected.

Thanks for this comment. I have the stock DIO right now, waiting to be sent to Wayne. And I swear that it says Tube on the little case. And I can see the tube through the little vent holes. I have been scratching my head about this. It's all clear now.

ABEX · « **Reply #25 on:** 18 Apr 2003, 08:39 pm »

TYSON
Want to post that review at AA

There are many people that want to know the comparision,but I would also think system synergy might be a helpful mention seeing that your sytem is Tube Based to begin with.

Just a thought!

Tyson · « **Reply #26 on:** 18 Apr 2003, 09:36 pm »

ABEX,
If you want to post a link to this review on AA, I'm cool with that.

nature boy · « **Reply #27 on:** 18 Apr 2003, 10:52 pm »

Thanks Tyson. I'm sold and will be picking up an ART DI/O from Full Compass to send to Wayne for Mensa mods, as soon as I return from a much needed vacation to the NC Outerbanks. I have been hemming and hawing about a DAC decision for some time. Thanks to all for their observations about the Mensa, Scott Nixon tubedac, and Modwright P3A.

NB

Hantra · « **Reply #28 on:** 18 Apr 2003, 10:59 pm »

If you're going to OBX, then you could cruise by here and hear the Tube DAC!

JoshK · « **Reply #29 on:** 18 Apr 2003, 11:03 pm »

I don't think anyone has compared the Modwright P3A to the Bolder modded DI/O have they?

nature boy · « **Reply #30 on:** 19 Apr 2003, 12:07 am »

Hantra,

Thanks for the invitation, but my wife would kill me. I just got done listening to a pair of Danny Ritchie's Criterion speakers and did not hear the end of it - "didn't you just get a turntable". A small, inconspicuous DAC could fly in under the radar screen.

Josh,

I don't think anyone has done an A-B of the Mensa and Modwright P3A. However given the price difference ~$525 for Mensa vs. ~$850 for a used Modwright P3A, I've decided to opt for the modified ART DI/O.

Based on various posts, I think the Mensa is the best bet in the around $500 category. Moving up to around $1k Modwright P3A w/ monolithic power supply or the BelCanto DAC2 look like the ones to beat.

Cheers to you AC folks. See you in a couple of weeks.

NB

ABEX · « **Reply #31 on:** 19 Apr 2003, 01:20 am »

TYSON:
I posted the review over at AA.Just thought it would be a good idea as I think I had told you that I took some slack for stateing either way you went I could not see a person going wrong.

Some posted back saying they did not think It was a close call and that the SN DAC would probably be better.

I hear alot from people that do not have the experience to make the call either way on alot of things,myself included.That is why from the opinion I have stated is the way I phrased it to be either way you go you cannot lose.

There are system considerations also to take into account like I have a Passive Controller which needs Gain.If someone is to get the MENSA using a Passive it's wise to keep the Output resistor values between 6-7v.

For a system as you stated it might be ggod for a SS edgyness to be tamed or whichever way you had phrased it.

Later!

eico1 · « **Reply #32 on:** 19 Apr 2003, 01:30 am »

If your buying you dac based on reputation, check out the Benchmark Dac1 in this price range. By design, the dio will never make it due to lousy jitter reduction. These guys have been recognized by the pro market for quite some time for excellent products that used to cost a few grand. Also, power supply is internal.

http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/[url]

ABEX · « **Reply #33 on:** 19 Apr 2003, 01:34 am »

She does look good!

ABEX · « **Reply #34 on:** 19 Apr 2003, 02:03 am »

Hantra you wrote in another thread concerning the SN DAC:

"I am going to have to agree 100% with you. I have compared it to some mighty DAC's in the 6-10K range, and it bettered one, and fell just short of the other in width, and depth of soundstage. But I'll loose a foot on either side of my soundstage for $6,000".

I was wondering what those DACs were and what the system configuration might have been?

TIA,ABEX

Tyson · « **Reply #35 on:** 19 Apr 2003, 03:48 am »

More observations (did another comparison tonight, switched back to the Mensa tonight for a bit, after having the tubedac in for several days). The interesting thing is that the tubedac was sounding "very" good tonight, just really relaxed, musical, warm, inviting. I am softening my stance on the veiled nature of the sound. I think a lot of the details are there, just not obvious. I still hear more detail with the Mensa, but it's not as large a gap as I previously thought.

Speaking to the sound of the tubedac, the thing I notice it that it really gets the silences, breaks, and pauses "between" the notes spot on. You really get a sense of a guy or girl just there, making music, a relaxed, tube type of sound. After tonight, I'd have to say that the tubedac is pretty damn good.

Switching over to the Mensa, the tone of instruments (especially violins) sounded thinner and more wiry than through the tubedac. I was really put off by this, but I acclimated to the new sound quickly. About halfway through the 1st movement of Beethoven's string quartet # 7, it hit me what I like so much about the Mensa, that the TubeDac is missing - dynamics and intensity. With the mensa, the players just sounded more involved, more passionate in their playing. Part of it is also the overall presentation, which focuses a bit more on the attack of the notes, but a larger part of it was that the dynamics (especially the microdynamics) just popped out at me, when the 2 violins are "dueling", you hear each player really stretching himself. When they all play as a single voice in a crescendo, it hits you hard.

Let me state it again, so there is no confusion on this point - I REALLY like the tubeDac, but the Mensa just fits my preferences better for how I like music presented. An analogy might be helpful - to me, the TubeDac sounds like an upper end Sonus Faber speaker, just beautiful sounding and very smooth, but still not sacrificing detail to obtain it's beauty. The Mensa is more like the Dunlavy speakers - detailed, dynamic, neutral, highly involving. Which will you prefer? It all depends on the rest of your system and your preferences.

I just got some mullard tubes for my pre and my amp, they are supposed to be more tube-y sounding than even the Siemens tubes they are replacing, so it will be interesting to see how the to DAC's compare on Sunday after I have a couple of days breakin on the new tubes.

Hantra · « **Reply #36 on:** 19 Apr 2003, 04:42 am »

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I was wondering what those DACs were and what the system configuration might have been?

Abe:

Those were the Audio Note 3.1x balanced, and the Zanden. AN being $6500, and the Zanden, a cool $10000.

Rest of the system was as follows:

- AN CDT-2 transport
- Consonance tube pre-amp
- Philly Audio Neutron 300B monos
- Audio Tekne power conditioner
- Audio Magic cabling throughout
- Galante Audio Symphony

Quote

the thing I notice it that it really gets the silences, breaks, and pauses "between" the notes spot on.

Tyson:

You got that right. That is a byproduct of no digital filtering/oversampling. All of the DAC's I have heard that don't oversample get this right.

It sounds to me like you may be a candidate for the DACKit+. It has higher output, and I think you can get it without the tubes, and it adds some Black Gates. This would still be less than the Mensa, and I think it would add the dynamics, and lack of softness you are looking for in the Mensa while still giving you the benefits of non-oversampling.

I am glad you like the TubeDAC though, and like I was saying, it does take some getting used to. Sounds like you've pretty much got the jist of it now, and what it does.

What's the rest of your system, might I ask?

Thx!

B

Tyson · « **Reply #37 on:** 19 Apr 2003, 04:49 am »

Can the TubeDac be upgraded to the TubeDac+, or would you have to sell one and get the other?

My system:
nOrh CD-1 as transport
Bolder Cryo Treated Digital IC
Mensa DIO w/Bolder power supply and Nitro power cord
AVA Transcendance 7 preamp w/Siemens NOS tubes
AVA FetValve 550ex amp with Siemens NOS tubes
Bolder Cryo Treated Bybeed Nitro's
Bolder Cryo Treated Nitro Speaker Wire
VMPS RM40's with Auricap upgrade (soon to have the new FST tweeter)
Bolder Bybee'd Power Bar with Nitro Power cord

Hantra · « **Reply #38 on:** 19 Apr 2003, 05:04 am »

Tyson:

Scott is a genius. He can upgrade it I am sure.

B

TV Man · « **Reply #39 on:** 19 Apr 2003, 06:21 am »

Hi Tyson,

You've touched on exactly what makes the DacKit special to me...

The details are all there in the highs, but they are more subtle. What this does for me is it draws me in to the listening experience.

The black background and spaces between notes helps too.

I used to be a detail freak and my system evolved to the point where it was getting hard to listen to. The highs were all there, but so present that they were bringing listener fatigue. I stopped enjoying listening to music. I still sat down and listened a lot but it was more like an exercise or a discipline to do it.

With Scott's DacKit the emotional involvement and joy of listening is back. So I'm a happy boy once again

I still hear very well up to 20khz, so that is a factor too. Treble that sounds too forward to me may be just right to someone else.

I'd love to try one of Wayne's D/IO's someday, but funds are tighter these days than they used to be.

Happy Listening