Help for a piano fanatics sysem

mca · « **on:** 13 Aug 2005, 12:09 am »

My business partner has long known that I am an audio geek. I always knew he liked music but never knew he and his wife have a big passion for playing piano and just about any music that has the paino in it.

He came to me today and told me his wife has finally granted his wish to let him put together a serious two channel system. His system now consists of an old Carver receiver, CD player and some old Monitor brand speakers.

He wants to build a system that will excell at reproducing the piano and has about 6k to spend. I had to kind of laugh and told him I have had bad luck with my systems and the sound of a piano. To me, it's the hardest instrument to reproduce and always has a bright and unnatural ring to my ears.

The only reference to piano I have ever read that sticks with me is a review of the VMPS 626R on Positive Feedback. The reviewer said Brian C. played some piano in his room and then played a piano track on the 626R and he thought the sound was too close to call.

So I am inclined to at least start there and work a system up around the 626R. Anyone else have an opinion on a good system for reproducing the piano?

SET Man · « **Reply #1 on:** 13 Aug 2005, 12:45 am »

Hi,

MCA, first I have to say that I'm a bit biased on this because I'm a Single Driver and SET amp but the system that your piano fanatic friend looking for is Single Driver Speaker and if possible with SET amp.

If you haven't heard a good Single Driver speaker without xover paired with SET amp playing piano piece than you owe it to yourself to listen to one. There are not many Single Driver speaker company out there.

One is the Omega speaker here in the AC. But I'm not a fan of Fostex in bassreflex box. But still a good start. The other is the Hornshop with 4" Fostex. Should be fine in small to medium room, maybe with a sub.

The other that you and your friend consider is Cain & Cain "Abby"
http://www.cain-cain.com/abby/index.html

For $6K in a small to medium room I would get the Abby and pair them with the Welborne Labs DRD 300B http://www.welbornelabs.com/drd.htm and use the rest of the money for some cable like Kimber Hero and 8TC. That still should leave some money for a good CD player.
Than if you want more bass than get a good sub later on.

Well, hope this help. But don't take my word for it. You and your friend should go out and listen for yourself.

Goodluck,
Buddy

Hogg · « **Reply #2 on:** 13 Aug 2005, 12:47 am »

Two speakers that can do very well with piano are ATC monitors, the designer is a jazz pianist and planars. I prefer the former and would suggest listening to the active versions either the 10-2's or 20-2's depending on budget. All that is needed is microphone cables from the preamp to speakers, a decent preamp and a CDP with interconnects to the speakers.

Jim

JoshK · « **Reply #3 on:** 13 Aug 2005, 12:48 am »

THe only thing I have to say, is remember that the middle "a" is 400hz, that means half the notes are below 400hz, so don't skimp on bass if you really want to full spectrum of the piano.

Obie · « **Reply #4 on:** 13 Aug 2005, 12:53 am »

I purchased my rig (a little over $6k all new) largely because I thought it did piano so very well. I think it excels in other areas, but I have always been thrilled with the sonority and fun of listening to piano music on it.

Von Schweikert VR4-Jr. (but I remember the VR-2's doing very well)
Naim CD5i
Naim Nait5i

I wouldn't normally jump in on a thread like this, but it hits so close to my experience.

This system could be had for much less than $6k used-- allowing room for vinyl or a bump up to CD5x?

Best of Luck-
Kj

asull2k · « **Reply #5 on:** 13 Aug 2005, 02:58 am »

Build him the Linkwitz Orion and all will be done.

warnerwh · « **Reply #6 on:** 13 Aug 2005, 05:15 am »

Of all the speakers I've owned in 30 years the RM 40's come the closest to actually sounding like the piano we have at our home. I believe you're on the right track with the 626r's but a sub is mandatory imo. The only other advice is to make sure you have plenty of amplifier power. Your friend should be quite happy. If he's got the money the RM 30's would be even better.

zybar · « **Reply #7 on:** 13 Aug 2005, 10:54 am »

Quote from: warnerwh

Of all the speakers I've owned in 30 years the RM 40's come the closest to actually sounding like the piano we have at our home. I believe you're on the right track with the 626r's but a sub is mandatory imo. The only other advice is to make sure you have plenty of amplifier power. Your friend should be quite happy. If he's got the money the RM 30's would be even better.

The Salk Sound Veracity HT3's present a more realistic piano than the RM 40's or RM 30's.

George

GHM · « **Reply #8 on:** 13 Aug 2005, 01:40 pm »

I guess I'll give my recommendations

. I agree with set man on the Single drivers. If you want to hear and feel the weight of the pianos without a subwoofer. Take a look at the Bob Brines FTA-2000s , FT-1600 MK2s or the FT-2000s based on the Lowther driver. The Brines speaker easily compete with speakers above the $5000 mark. Another speaker that comes to mind is the Soliloquy 6.2 or 6.3 very realistic piano out of these speakers. As far as the receiver goes ..he might be surprised how good single drivers sound on a receiver.

http://www.geocities.com/rbrines1/Products.html
http://www.solspeak.com/sol_products/i_towers.php

SET Man · « **Reply #9 on:** 13 Aug 2005, 03:19 pm »

Quote from: GHM

I guess I'll give my recommendations . I agree with set man on the Single drivers. If you want to hear and feel the weight of the pianos without a subwoofer. Take a look at the Bob Brines FTA-2000s , FT-1600 MK2s or the FT-2000s based on the Lowther driver. The Brines speaker easily compete with speakers above the $5000 mark. Another speaker that comes to mind is the Soliloquy 6.2 or 6.3 very realistic piano out of these speakers. As far as the receiver goes ..he might be surprised how good single d ...

Hey!

Thanks GHM. I totally forgot about Bob Brines's stuff. Very interesting. I've heard the FTA-2000 with Fostex F200A driver at Bemopti123's apartment. Not very high efficiency 90dB but I'm impressed with the very robust sound with very good low bass. And with the corection network the speaker sound smooth.

I wonder what other speaker from him sound like. I'm very intriqued by his ported Quater wave resonators. Wonder what they sound like.

So, if you have a bit more power and can install drivers yourself than the FTA-2000 with Fostex F200A could be a way to go. Or if you are crazy like me than just try to build one

Take care,
Buddy

audioengr · « **Reply #10 on:** 13 Aug 2005, 04:23 pm »

My reference system does a good job of reproducing live piano, given a decent recording. Speakers alone will not get you the live piano. I would recommend focusing on the CD source first. Get separates and preferably modded. The best chance you will have here is to go with PC-driven audio, particularly with a $6K budget. Piano requires extremes of frequency ressponse, transient response, weight and dynamics. Speakers alone could cost you $6K. I would recommend the following:

Source - PC USB to S/PDIF converter, P-3A DAC modded - $4K
Preamp - ??
Power amp - Parasound HCA-3500 - About $1100 used
Speakers - Gallo Ref3's - $2600 new, $1500 used

$6K is really an "entry" point for good audio reproduction. Trying to do great piano for $6K is a real challenge. Even most $100K systems cannot do it.

GHM · « **Reply #11 on:** 13 Aug 2005, 04:47 pm »

Hi Set Man,

I haven't heard the FT-2000s. But I would think they are lighter on their feet....than my FTA-2000s. If someone wants more detail with roughly the same bass response this is probably their speaker. The FTAs do have a romantic sound to them. They give up a little detail for richness. But that's ok with me. I've had speakers that went to 40 Khz. Talking about giving you a headache!

they sounded great most of the time but like anything else..too much of a good thing can turn bad.

As for the comment about 6K being entry into good audio...yeah right!
I do agree the source and amplifer must be up to snuff..but spending insane amounts on dealer markup is nuts! Sorry dealers

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #12 on:** 13 Aug 2005, 06:48 pm »

As someone who has recorded classical music for 17 years, with many of those recordings involving piano either solo or as an accompaniment to solo instrument, I must say that both the recording and replay of piano represents perhaps the benchmark challenge. I have seldom heard piano reproduced with much of the reality intact. One of the mics I use - an $8000 Schoeps KM6 Sphere - was chosen mainly for its supposed abilities with piano.
After all this time, my conclusions as to what is needed for replay are:
1. very high dynamic capabilities, i.e. very little power compression, that is, if a speaker produces 90dB at one watt at representative points across the audio band, say, 50, 100, 500, 2000, 10,000Hz, then it should produce 100dB with 10 watts and 110dB with 100 watts at all those same frequencies. Most speakers compress before the 100W point, blunting dynamics. I would say the minimum requirement for piano at near realistic levels would be around 115dB clean for the peaks.
2. linear and non resonant behaviour between 40Hz and 300Hz, especially, with the aforementioned dynamic capability through that range.
3. (perhaps obviously) flat response through the rest of the range, and more than just on axis but within 30º around that axis.

I am currently in the process of replacing my studio mid field monitors and piano reproduction will be a high priority for me. Based on testimonials from professionals in the field, some based specifically on their abilities with piano, I am going to take a chance on SP Technologies Timepieces and will be using NuForce ref 9 amplifiers. I say take a chance because I will not be able to audition them beforehand, however there is a free (including return shipping) 30 day trial period. These would appear to satisfy all the criteria mentioned above.

Russell

RoadTripper · « **Reply #13 on:** 13 Aug 2005, 09:37 pm »

I have been a piano player since the age of 5. And I was a full time piano tuner/technician for 20 years- including several contracts with recording studios in San Diego.

I have the VMPS RM40s, the Zu Druids and Omega Grande 8R. The Zus are the best piano rep. I have ever heard. With all of these speakers, you can tell how well recorded the piano was or how good a piano is being recorded. The Zus have the most body, the most soundboard/cabinet vibration harmonics, and best hammer attack of any I have heard.

Obviously there are many speakers I have not heard, so take my opinions with a grain of salt.

Tweaker · « **Reply #14 on:** 13 Aug 2005, 09:48 pm »

I went out with my wife and auditioned quite a few speakers last spring (mistakingly) thinking that I could do better than my RM2's. None of them came close. I listen to a variety of music but my first love is piano jazz. They do piano very,very well.

mca · « **Reply #15 on:** 17 Aug 2005, 01:36 am »

Looks like we are down to Zu Druids, VMPS, DeVore Fidelity or Magnepan.

He got a listen to the Magnepan 1.6 and the Gibbon 8 at local shops and liked them both although he said they are both very different in how they present the music.

I was able to hear the Druid this weekend (thanks, Miklorsmith!) and fell in love with them myself. Hope to get another listen with more piano and see how they do.

Then it's off to Portland this weekend to get a listen to the 626R.

bubba966 · « **Reply #16 on:** 17 Aug 2005, 03:14 am »

One of the very few tracks I've heard on the 626R's was rather piano heavy.

And it was the best reproduced piano I'd heard.