CD playback - no real progress in the last 5 years?

rmihai0 · « **on:** 27 Jul 2005, 02:29 pm »

Since the Arcam launched their CD23 in 2000, I didn't encountered or heard a better CD player under $2300.

After 5 years I am looking to replace my Arcam CD23 and I really don't know what should I look for.

Obviously there are better CD players out there (from Esoteric, Linn, Naim, Wadia...) but none of them is reasonable priced. I was expecting once the technology will progress the prices to decrease. But is not looking like.

Can you help me - please?

Thank you

JoshK · « **Reply #1 on:** 27 Jul 2005, 02:36 pm »

I have no familiarity with that Arcam model, but have heard the FMJ. I think the April Music Stello transport + DAC is in that price range and clearly a great digital rig. You could also use your Arcam as a transport and just get a DAC.

rmihai0 · « **Reply #2 on:** 27 Jul 2005, 02:45 pm »

Thank you Josh. I cannot use my CD23 as a transport, because the transport is old and it might leave me anytime. I can replace the transport, in which case I will kepp it. But to use an external DAC with my Arcam CD23 is out of discussion - because my Arcam has a dcS DAC inside!!! And this is one reason why is so good. Wolfson and other later DAC couldn't reach the superb quality of dcS.

konut · « **Reply #3 on:** 27 Jul 2005, 03:10 pm »

Lavry Blue http://www.proaudioreview.com/april04/Lavry.shtml

mcgsxr · « **Reply #4 on:** 27 Jul 2005, 03:38 pm »

5 years old is old for a cd transport? Guess I am really in trouble using my 10-12 year old Nakamichi then!

I would advise using a DAC, and when the transport cacks, you can search for a 3 year old one on Agon.

Just my approach.

rmihai0 · « **Reply #5 on:** 27 Jul 2005, 03:43 pm »

Mark,

hope you are right and my Arcam transport will last for 10 years. I don't need an external DAC - as I said, dcS Ring cannot be bettered

JoshK · « **Reply #6 on:** 27 Jul 2005, 03:55 pm »

If you believe the dCS dac cannot be bettered then mod it, buy a back-up transport (raw drive) to ensure longevity and don't worry about replacing it. Plenty of things you can do to improve the signal of what you already have inside the Arcam.

Charles Calkins · « **Reply #7 on:** 27 Jul 2005, 04:48 pm »

rmihaio:
Contact Alex Peychev at aplhifi.com and see if he can fix you up with his modded Pioneer 563 DVd and SACD player. I had one until I got his Modded Philips SACD 1000. In my humble opinion the Pioneer was the very best $600 CD player I ever had. Price has gone up(Like everything else) but I'm sure it's still cheap.

Cheers
Charlie

Loftprojection · « **Reply #8 on:** 28 Jul 2005, 01:47 am »

I have the CD23T that I bought as a demo unit 6 months ago. I shopped for 2 months and listened to just about every CD player and transport DAC I could find at local shops in the price range of $1000 to $3000 cnd$. I ended up buying the CD23T!!!!

I would be really surprised if you find something "better" in that price range. There may be other players or DAC combination that you find a bit more to your taste but I think to be able to really step UP in sound quality, you will need to either find a bargain with a used unit or spend more than $3000. One player that I find quite outstanding is the Audio Aero Capitole but it's a lot of $$$ even used on Audiogon.

The Dcs DAC in our CD23 has a reputation that doesn't need introduction anymore! The player itself is also from the FMJ line of Arcam which is known to be really well made, there may not be that many options of improvement in there. The only "mod" I did to mine was use an upgraded power cable and super interconnect cables.

I'll follow your thread, it will be interesting to see if others come up with good suggestions.

Danberg · « **Reply #9 on:** 28 Jul 2005, 02:32 am »

OK, educate me. I am also looking for a new (or used) CD player. Never heard of the Arcam CD23, but all those positive comments have my juces flowing!

Is the CD23-T a current model? Any suggestions on where to purchase on (other than Audiogon) new of used?

I recently purchased a new Rotel RCD1072 and it's OK, but not my cup of tea. I loved my previous Rotel RCD975 but it died. Had great synergy with my system. I also asummed as "rmihai0" did that after 5 years the new Rotel would be quite a bit better than my original RCD975... wrong.
the new Rotel has no sparkle, sounds "dead" by comparison, way too warm for my liking.

What about DAC as a seperate? Do they really offer such a significant improvement in sound? Or will I be adding one more component to try and match to a transport to get proper synergy? Do transports have there own sonic signatures? Can I use my new RCD1072 as a transport and purchase a DAC seperate to imporove on what I have?

Loftprojection · « **Reply #10 on:** 28 Jul 2005, 01:03 pm »

Well, "educate me", I wont pretend to be able to do that in any way because I'm just a regular joe who likes to listen to music! haha I can however give you a personal opinion based on the shopping I've done for my CD23T!

The CD23 or CD23T is a discontinued model. The T is just a very insignificant upgrade the did to have a display that shows the information on the song if it's on the CD, purely useless if you ask my opinion. From what I know, the reason why the CD23(T) gets so much praise is because Arcam had an agreement with some kind of high end DAC company to use their ring Dcs DAC for the CD23 player. This DAC is supposed to be used in very expensive players. However, Arcam discontinued the player after 2 or 3 years and went back to using the Wolfson DACs which is what they have in their newer models 73-192. I'm quite sure this decision was based on financial reason, not sound quality. Unless you are lucky like me, you will not find a CD23 in stores anymore, mine was a leftover demo unit. Every once in a while there is one popping up on Audiogon because it was a very popular model so there has to be people who want to upgrade so they sell theirs.

For your Rotel experience, I'm not surprised at all. My old Rotel 940 is surprisingly good. I listened to the new ones when I was shopping and I scratched Rotel quite fast from my list. Would you be able to improve by keeping your new Rotel and adding a DAC, probably but from tests I made with transports and DAC, yes the transport add it's own "flavor" to the sound and that was a revalation to me. I tried a Musical Fidelity DAC fed by a Moon CD player and an Arcam CD player in the same system, TOTALLY different result. This convinced me that one of the reason why CD players still exist is that synergy between the transport and the DAC.

Is the CD23 such an extraordinary player in it's price range, I don't think so, I think it's a VERY good one but I'm convinced that depending on taste and the other components in your system, there are other players that can satisfy you as much. Your new Rotel might just not be the one, unfortunately. If today I was searching for a cheap CD player, I would certainly look more at the used market for an old high end player then I would look at the new players in the same price range. I am delighted by my decision to buy the CD23 at the price I got it, it is quite a bit better than the new players in the price range I paid for it. Even if a lot of people think technology has evolved quite a bit, my opinion is that technology might have evolved to bring more money in the pockets of the companies but it certainly has not evolved that much for the consumer who is looking at the end result sound quality.

Hope this helps and please keep in mind my first sentence, I am not technically competent to provide any kind of professional advice, my opinion is just some common sense.

Cheers.

Quote from: Danberg

OK, educate me. I am also looking for a new (or used) CD player. Never heard of the Arcam CD23, but all those positive comments have my juces flowing!

Is the CD23-T a current model? Any suggestions on where to purchase on (other than Audiogon) new of used?

I recently purchased a new Rotel RCD1072 and it's OK, but not my cup of tea. I loved my previous Rotel RCD975 but it died. Had great synergy with my system. I also asummed as "rmihai0" did that after 5 years the new Rotel would be quite a bit ...

lcrim · « **Reply #11 on:** 28 Jul 2005, 03:23 pm »

rmihai0:
Arguably the best bang for buck in Redbook playback is PC based. In a thread below the use of the Squeeze Box2 is discussed. There are certainly other very high quality PC based playback methods that could also increase your ease of playback.

rbrb · « **Reply #12 on:** 4 Aug 2005, 02:53 pm »

I guess it could be argued whether it's an advancement or not but what I have seen over the last few years is the proliferation of Chinese made players on the market. They offer serious build quality and true high end sound for mass market prices.

Players like the HIT/Cayin CD22, Cayin CD15/17 and Shanling CD-T80/CD-T100 among others perform like players from the traditional manufacturers that cost multiples of their price.

Like I said it's debatable whether this can be seen as an advancement but it puts audiophile quality players in the hands of more people.

tubeytubeamp · « **Reply #13 on:** 4 Aug 2005, 06:15 pm »

Quote

Danberg wrote:
OK, educate me. I am also looking for a new (or used) CD player. Never heard of the Arcam CD23, but all those positive comments have my juces flowing!

Is the CD23-T a current model? Any suggestions on where to purchase on (other than Audiogon) new of used?

I recently purchased a new Rotel RCD1072 and it's OK, but not my cup of tea. I loved my previous Rotel RCD975 but it died. Had great synergy with my system. I also asummed as "rmihai0" did that after 5 years the new Rotel would be quite a bit ...

In regards to the RCD1072. It is a fine player on its own. However it was really designed to be mated with the ra1062 integrated amp. The combo of the two can be outstanding. I owned the Ra1062 briefly and was very impressed by it.

Loftprojection · « **Reply #14 on:** 4 Aug 2005, 06:50 pm »

I don't think it is advancement, it's probably more of a price "regression" then a technology "advancement"! hahaha

While shopping for a CD player I demoed the Shanling CD-T100 and I have to agree with you that it is an impressive machine for it's price, I really liked it. Unfortunately I could not do an a/b compare with my CD23T so it's difficult to know which one I would have liked more. At retail price the CD-T100 was a bit over my budget while the used/demo CD23T unit was right in my budget so I bought that one. From memory, I suspect the CD-T100 sounded a bit better for my taste then my CD23T but certainly not by a wide margin if at all because I demoed it with very high end speakers which are way over mine.

Quote from: rbrb

I guess it could be argued whether it's an advancement or not but what I have seen over the last few years is the proliferation of Chinese made players on the market. They offer serious build quality and true high end sound for mass market prices.

Players like the HIT/Cayin CD22, Cayin CD15/17 and Shanling CD-T80/CD-T100 among others perform like players from the traditional manufacturers that cost multiples of their price.

Like I said it's debatable whether this can be seen as an advancement but it puts audiophile quality players in the hands of more people.

PhilNYC · « **Reply #15 on:** 4 Aug 2005, 07:13 pm »

Quote from: Loftprojection

The T is just a very insignificant upgrade the did to have a display that shows the information on the song if it's on the CD, purely useless if you ask my opinion. From what I know, the reason why the CD23(T) gets so much praise is because Arcam had an agreement with some kind of high end DAC company to use their ring Dcs DAC for the CD23 player. This DAC is supposed to be used in very expensive players. However, Arcam discontinued the player after 2 or 3 years and went back to using the Wolfson DACs which is what they have in their newer models 73-192. I'm quite sure this decision was based on financial reason, not sound quality.

The T "upgrade" was made to the Arcam CD23 because the original transport mechanism (a Sony, I believe) used in the CD23 was discontinued, and the replacement transport mechanism they picked had the text capability.

Regarding the Ring DAC used in the CD23, it was a heavily stripped down version of the Ring DAC developed by dCS and used in their ultra-expensive high end products. The reason Arcam stopped using it is *rumored* to be because dCS felt it diluted their brand (ie, people were going around saying "the Arcam CD23 is like a mini-dCS stack, and for 1/10th the price!", when in fact the CD23 was nowhere near the performance level of a dCS stack), so they decided not to let Arcam continue. It did have the same general sound (*very* open and airy, lacking in some muscle and lower bass), but did not produce the sophistication, microdetail and pace that the big stack does. FWIW, Arcam and dCS have the same US distributor (audiophile systems), so I'm sure that's how the introduction between the two companies was made...

Ergonomically, the CD23 is among the best high end CDPs out there...instant load-times, a remote that behaves like a remote should, etc.

I am a former CD23 owner, and while I thought it sounded terrific when I bought it, I sold it a year ago (to someone here on AC) because I felt like the new players that had come out were surpassing it performance-wise in a pretty significant fashion. I credit April Music for pushing me over that edge, because their Stello transport/DAC (at a combined $2400) really impressed me. But the CD23 is definitely a very good player...just not quite up to the state of the art at the $2000 price range anymore...