Omega B200 Aperiodic prototypes (long)....

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Vinnie R.

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Omega B200 Aperiodic prototypes (long)....
« on: 27 Jul 2005, 01:45 am »
All,

I have received numerous emails and/or PM's aout the new prototype Omega speakers that I now own, which use the Visaton B200 full-range driver.  

I posted some pics here, and will be posting more info about them as soon as Louis sends it to me:
http://www.redwineaudio.com/Omega_B200_Aperiodic.html

I have been doing some serious late-night listening and would like to share my initial impressions of these new speakers using a modded Clari-T and custom battery-modded Squeezebox 2's analog outputs (will be posting mods for it soon):

Let me begin by stating that these are the tightest, fastest sounding speaker that I've had the pleasure to listen to!  I thought my Super 3's were lightning fast, but these take the cake.  :o   How can that be???  I would have never guessed that this 8" driver would have better transient attack and speed than the F127E, but in this aperiodic enclosure, it clearly does!  The bass control is AMAZINGLY good, and there is NO boominess to speak of, and I have these placed only about 1-foot from the rear wall....no problems at all!  Take Patricia Barber's "You and the Night and the Music" (track 3) from Modern Cool.  There is a bass solo in the middle of that song that is very demanding on speaker and amplifier control.  This speaker has this bass solo licked down perfectly!   BTW, I'm using a test CD and am getting a solid in-room bass response down to 50-55Hz, and it rolls off slowly after that.  I don't have measuring equipment on hand to give the details...

Next, dymanics are startling and stunning!  These speakers seem to be meant for percussion instruments, which I quickly found out by playing the Bozzio, Levin, and Steven's "Black Light Syndrome" CD (Track # 3) that Lonewolf_NY was so kind to give to me at the NY Audiorave (thanks, Chris!).  Wow!  You need to hear it to believe it!  Very, very nice!  :P

The top-end is actually more extended and open sounding than the Super 3's as well, which again, is a big surprise with this 8" driver (well, I knew it was better because I tried these in an open baffle before I gave them to Louis).  There is plenty of detail and sparkle up top, and it just makes me ponder how Visaton pulled it off in their design...

The one area where I believe the Super 3s have an advantage over these speakers is with female vocals.  They sound a little more natural to me on the Super 3's, but I really need to listen more and allow for proper break-in (I only have around 60 hours on these drivers, and I remember my F127Es sounded substantially better after 200 hours of use), and I need to play around with postioning as well.  These are just my initial impressions...

These speakers play a lot louder than the Super 3's, and the 6-watts from the Clari-T is more than enough here!  All of the key strenghts of the Clari-T (and Lotus) come shining through with these speakers!  I believe Louis said these speakers are around 95 or 96dB..

I've been asked how these new speakers compare to the open-baffle configuration.  Well, there is certainly improved bass response (stronger, deeper, more punch).  The OB config gave me a more diffuse sound that was very 3-D.  These aperiodic enclosures create a more focused sound with better imaging, but doesn't have that spooky 3-D "magic-thang" going on that the open-baffles delivered.  Keep in mind that no other box or horn speakers I've heard were able to do it like that either.  

Build quality first-rate
, as you would expect from Louis.  He told me that he's using the R-compound and other special goodies in that enclosure, and as you can see from the photos, there are two aperiodic vents on the back instead of tuned ports.  A pair of Lotus-style Cardas binding posts are also installed.  I forgot to take pics with the grills on, which are the magnet grills (black) and look great.  Between having the ability to place these close to the rear wall, and the stout but elegant looks, these speakers seem to have the WAF (I tested this out on my wife, and she liked their appearance *MUCH* better than the clear acrylic open baffles, which I caught hell for btw.. :argue:   :bawl: )

Let me close this initial post by thanking BOTH Dmason (for finding these beautifully engineered B200 drivers and turning me onto purchasing them), and Louis for doing all the aperiodic enclosure simulations, experimenting, and finishing the job so damn well!  :thumb:   You guys both make this a ton of fun!

Again, more detailed info will be posted (See the link above) soon...

Thanks,

powerbench

B200
« Reply #1 on: 27 Jul 2005, 03:36 am »
COOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o

Russell Dawkins

Omega B200 Aperiodic prototypes (long)....
« Reply #2 on: 27 Jul 2005, 06:28 am »
The Visaton site offers an intriguing model called the NoBox. It incorporates a 15" high eff. bass driver as a supplement for the OB design. Sells as a kit for $483 USD each side for two drivers, crossover and binding posts. Look here and click on "details" for an enthusiastic review:

http://www.visaton.de/english/uebersicht/6_89_u.html

I really like the notion of dipolar bass although I have heard it only from planars and electrostatics, and don't see why the clarity and articulation I heard wouldn't also be present with cone speakers, given suitable amplifier damping factor.
Russell

Bwanagreg

Omega B200 Aperiodic prototypes (long)....
« Reply #3 on: 27 Jul 2005, 02:18 pm »
Wow Vinnie, you and Louis are rocking! This is quite an impressive array of combined offerings you guys are cooking up.

Louis, is it a requirement of the aperiodic design that the vents be in the rear, or would front-firing vents work ok also? I know Vinnie said that he has them a foot from the wall, but I've got a home theater installation that is even tigher than that. The TS-1s work brilliantly in that situation with their front ports.

On that subject, would either of you care to compare and contrast the 8" Visiton to the 8" Fostex, and of course your new 8" hemp? Vinnie, your comment about the stunning dynamics of the Visaton has be intrigued, since that is such an important charaterstic for movies - as long as I don't have to give up my sweet sounding midrange for music!

Vinnie R.

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Re: Omega B200 Aperiodic prototypes (long)....
« Reply #4 on: 27 Jul 2005, 03:36 pm »
Quote from: Vinnie R.
I posted some pics here, and will be posting more info about them as soon as Louis sends it to me:
http://www.redwineaudio.com/Omega_B200_Aperiodic.html
...


I just added some updates  :smoke:

Vinnie R.

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Omega B200 Aperiodic prototypes (long)....
« Reply #5 on: 27 Jul 2005, 03:40 pm »
Quote from: Bwanagreg
I know Vinnie said that he has them a foot from the wall, but I've got a home theater installation that is even tigher than that. The TS-1s work brilliantly in that situation with their front ports.
..



Hi Bwanagreg,

I'm pretty certain that you can put these very close to the rear walls if you need to.  These are not tuned bass ports, so you won't get the issues associated with placing rear ported speakers too close to the wall.

However, let's wait for Louis to confirm this for us...

miklorsmith

Wowsers
« Reply #6 on: 27 Jul 2005, 03:50 pm »
Those things are freakin' beautiful.  What is an aperiodic cabinet?  I'm already planning my next purchase, and these are Definitely in the running.  Is there a hemp version of these planned?  I'll bet with the big T/S capabilities of these drivers they could CRANK if called upon.

Very cool.

Brad

Omega B200 Aperiodic prototypes (long)....
« Reply #7 on: 27 Jul 2005, 03:50 pm »
Russell - great link to the NoBox.
It appears the xover drops the sensitivity to 90db though.

Some of the other designs are pretty interesting, too.

konut

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Omega B200 Aperiodic prototypes (long)....
« Reply #8 on: 27 Jul 2005, 04:04 pm »
Refers to a type of bass-cabinet loading. An aperiodic enclosure type usually features a very restrictive, (damped), port. The purpose of this restrictive port is not to extend bass response, but lower the Q of the system and reduce the impedance peak at resonance. Most restrictive ports are heavily stuffed with fiberglass, dacron or foam. 

Aperiodic Enclosure - an otherwise sealed enclosure design, but with a vent that is stuffed with damping material, which flattens out the impedance curve of the design. The area of this resistive vent should be about 10 sq. in. per cubic ft. of enclosure volume. This design might take some experimentation with the vent stuffing, testing the impedance curve several times with different amounts of damping material until the
flattest impedance curve is found. The aperiodic resistive vent damps the driver in much the same way as fully stuffing a sealed enclosure with damping material (100% fill).

Essentially a poorly sealed box, an aperiodic box vents the inside of the box to the outside air via an "acoustic resistor". All other comments about sealed boxes generally apply. The purpose of an aperiodic design is to allow a smaller enclosure than would normally be possible. If you put a driver into a sealed box that's too small, it will exhibit high Q, causing a peak in its lower response and a high impedance peak. By letting the box leak air, both the response and impedance peaks are tamed. Aperiodic boxes should not be confused with ported boxes (discussed below). The essential difference is that a that the port in a ported box acts as a Helmholz resonator tuned to a specific frequency in order to enhance and extend the low frequency response. Aperiodic vent designs exhibit no such characteristic resonance and functions solely as an acoustic resistance. As with any other low frequency system, the smaller size is achieved at the cost of a somewhat higher F3 and a steeper 18 dB/octave roll off than a sealed system.

Fantasy shootout- Omega B200 vs. Zu Tone

miklorsmith

Word!
« Reply #9 on: 27 Jul 2005, 04:43 pm »
Thanks for the info.  And, those two are at the top of the list!  Actually, they ARE the list.

Vinnie R.

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Re: Wowsers
« Reply #10 on: 27 Jul 2005, 04:55 pm »
Quote from: miklorsmith
Those things are freakin' beautiful.  What is an aperiodic cabinet?  I'm already planning my next purchase, and these are Definitely in the running.  Is there a hemp version of these planned?  I'll bet with the big T/S capabilities of these drivers they could CRANK if called upon.

Very cool.


Hi Miklorsmith,

Yes, Louis is using the same enclosure for his HempTone speakers, but it will be rear ported (using the big flared "power port"), not aperiodic vented like shown in the pics.  The B200s are NOT to be used in a ported box, but they are great for sealed boxes, and open baffles.  

I believe the reason why Louis decided on the aperiodic box was to make it act like a much larger box to the B200, which is required to get a much flatter response in the bass...down to the low 50's Hz.  Konut explains the theory very well in the post above (thanks Konut!).  Louis also is doing a whole bunch of tweaky things inside the box, along with tweaks to the B200 driver itself.  

Louis also is also coming out with a floor stander for the HempTones, and who knows, may make the same floor stander enclosure aperiodic style for the B200!  :wink:

Regarding the Visaton NoBox, now your dealing with a Xover and more complexity, less efficiency, etc.  I would think that if one wants more bass, the Omega B200 Aperiodic would be easier to mate with a fast subwoofer, as it is not ported and has a more gentile bass rolloff.  I am not looking for a sub and I am very satisfied with the bass I'm getting, but I know there are bass nuts out there...you know who you are!  :lol:   :mrgreen:

Dmason

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Omega B200 Aperiodic prototypes (long)....
« Reply #11 on: 27 Jul 2005, 04:57 pm »
"could CRANK if called upon..."

Mike,

The B200 is no shrinking violet. It is a power speaker, and can very easily sink 40-50 watts and can get incredibly LOUD by my standards, and not compress at all. A couple of these could make for a deadly short-throw, hi rez PA system, let there be no doubt.... I hooked them up to my Hafler 9505, 250wpc, which has been used for years as a backline amp in a key-rig, and they just slammed, I really liked them. If anything, I would say they excel when driven abit.

The dynamic capabilities, speed of the thing with the higher current, higher output Vino mojo Teac for example, has to be heard to be appreciated. Anyone yearning for the other-worldly sonic of the B200 who don't have the inclination or space for OB should belly up for these babies embedded in the Good Wood, from Father O'Mega. I like.

konut

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Omega B200 Aperiodic prototypes (long)....
« Reply #12 on: 27 Jul 2005, 05:43 pm »
Quote from: Dmason
"could CRANK if called upon..."

Mike,

 I hooked them up to my Hafler 9505, 250wpc, which has been used for years as a backline amp in a key-rig, and they just slammed, I really liked them. If anything, I would say they excel when driven abit.
 ...


THATS what I'm talkin about!!

VinnieR-The aperiodic info was lifted from BoxModel 1.0 for Windows. Just in the right place at the right time.
miklorsmith- if you happen to get both units in the same room I'd make the drive from Spokane to get a listen, if its ok with you. My 2 prime candidates as well.

Louis O

Omega B200 Aperiodic prototypes (long)....
« Reply #13 on: 27 Jul 2005, 06:13 pm »
Hi Everybody,

Many thanks to Vinnie and Dmason big time for the genesis of the new speaker. Thanks again Vinnie for posting your impressions.

This driver is an amazing a unbelievable find from Dan. The B200 and the HempTone drivers have that amazing tone and bring single drivers to the next level. Both impress me in so many ways.

konut has the explanation down on the aperiodic load and when I got Vinnies drivers it was the first thing I thought about. The box itself is 1.25 cubic feet and adding the aperiodic vents add more box volume and lowers the overall Qtc. I didn't want to have any electronic component in the path at all. I'm also sharing the cabinets with the hemps and this really helps reduce costs a lot.

Hi Greg,

Many thanks and getting together on the new stuff has been great. Dan's input really got it rolling.

The vents work better on the back wall and I have played with this loading a lot when I was making subs years ago. The rear wall placement is not a problem at all compared to reavented BR speakers. They are so fast as well and no worries about added room gain.

For HT these will rock and can handle a lot of power the speed and resolution is great for HT soundtracks.

The Hemps and the B200 are very similar. The Hemps in the vented box will go lower and room placement is more important. The both have great tone and the top end is amazing. Very extended and no need for tweeters at all. The Fostex is a bit different and the difference other than the top end extension is the midrange clari t and transparency.

Hi Russell,

Lots of cool stuff on the site and they really think outside of the box. I have Maggies and the dipole sound is amazing in very many ways. I have to build the Darkstar for my room and ditch the Maggies.


Hi miklorsmith,

Really happy you like the look of the speakers. The teak is really nice too.
Konut had is down on the aperiodic loading. The Hemp compact is in the same cabinet, but witha 3" precision port on the rear. They go lower and have big punch to them. The balance is a little different, but very fast and transparent. The hemp cone has so much to do with this. Vocals have a bit more weight and you need at least 3 feet from the back wall when broken in.

Hi Brad,

Really great stuff and ideas on the visiton site. The added electronics do lower the SPL.

Hi Dan,

You are so right about these in everyway. They can crank it out no worries at all. I can only imagine a dual driver 1.5 way with these. In a separate boxes like a modular system. Would fill any room. Soon I'll get up to Tommy's and try them out on big power. I did use the Lotus to exclusively with them from the beginning and the Teac would get them to rip.

Most of all many thanks for starting it all.

I'm all for a shootout and it would be very interesting. One thing about price I can say right now is much lower than the Zu speakers.

Thanks again,
Louis

miklorsmith

Maybe
« Reply #14 on: 27 Jul 2005, 06:13 pm »
An in-house shootout?  Let the best speaker win and send back the other??  Intriguing.  I'd have to get the blessings of the makers before embarking on such a thing and it definitely won't happen for a couple months.  My revenue stream isn't there Quite yet.

Having the Druids already, I have the utmost respect for the Zu boys.  Being a repeat Vinnie customer and knowing the tremendous work Louis does and the rabid following makes the other option very interesting as well.  I still have passing interest in the Decware Radials too.  I've got a contact in Seattle that has Druids and RL-3's and likes them both.  He likes the Druids quite a bit better, but they're more expensive and room-dominating.  Decware's return policy for speakers SUCKS, so you better like them if you get them.

I just haven't been able to get over there with summertime in full swing.  I've got a few buddies with new soundtoys that I just haven't gotten around to scoping for the same reason.  Durnblasted sunshine!   :D

konut

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Omega B200 Aperiodic prototypes (long)....
« Reply #15 on: 27 Jul 2005, 06:36 pm »
Quote from: Louis O
Hi Everybody,

I'm all for a shootout and it would be very interesting. One thing about price I can say right now is much lower than the Zu speakers.  
 
 Thanks again,
 Louis.


If the price is right, I might just have to bring the the Omega B200s to Seattle!  Who do I have to sweettalk to to get the first production pair? Please PM me. :mrgreen:

miklorsmith

Yessss!
« Reply #16 on: 27 Jul 2005, 06:51 pm »
I've got a few amps and some tasty gear.  Two different systems and rooms too.  This could be really fun!  Um, honey, um, you're going to need to take the kids away for a few days. . .

Dmason

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Omega B200 Aperiodic prototypes (long)....
« Reply #17 on: 27 Jul 2005, 07:01 pm »
Mike,

I have been thinking about a trip to Seattle/Victoria, and to see MttBsh, who also wants to come over to hear the Druids. Hmmm... could be fun. Very interesting opp. to tear and compare. Especially in the fall, when the air clears off and the ...Northern Lights come out. So to speak.

"the meek shall inherit nothing."  -- Frank Zappa

"the rest of us shall escape into outer space." DM

Vinnie R.

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Omega B200 Aperiodic prototypes (long)....
« Reply #18 on: 27 Jul 2005, 08:09 pm »
Quote from: Bwanagreg
On that subject, would either of you care to compare and contrast the 8" Visiton to the 8" Fostex, and of course your new 8" hemp? Vinnie, your comment about the stunning dynamics of the Visaton has be intrigued, since that is such an important charaterstic for movies - as long as I don't have to give up my sweet sounding midrange for music!



Hi Bwanagreg,

Sorry, I forgot to answer your question above:

In my honest opinion, the Omega B200 Aperiodic is in a whole other league compared to the Grande 8's, which use the 8" Fostex.  The B200 is tighter and faster in the bass department, the top end is much more extended, and the midrange transparency is clearly superior.  

The Grande 8's probably have more bass SLAM, but not with the same accuracy and control as the B200s.  

Regards,

Vinnie

PS: I'll post more impressions by the end of the week...

RoadTripper

shootout
« Reply #19 on: 27 Jul 2005, 08:26 pm »
I am getting Zu Druids tomorrow (Jul 28) and therefore I could do a shootout with them, my current Omega Grande 8R and the new Omega B200s.  How about sending me a pair Louis???