Any downside to high efficiency speakers?

JLM · « **Reply #20 on:** 24 Jul 2005, 12:11 am »

DVV,

Perhaps when I mentioned dynamics I should have specified micro and macro dynamics. BTW big amps, with big transformers, long/complex circuits, and big capacitors don't help low efficiency speakers.

I agree with you definition of high efficiency speakers (96 dB/w/m and above). I'd define low efficiency at 89 dB/w/m or below.

To be perfectly honest Paul Klipsch should be remembered primarily for being outspoken and outliving most his contemporaries. In the last 50 years he added almost nothing to the state of the art, but did stay involved in his company well into his 90s. Other than his Klipschorns, his speakers exhibited no imagination, and were merely products of their time (amps were small tube designs that needed high efficiency speakers).

rmihai0 · « **Reply #21 on:** 24 Jul 2005, 12:53 am »

I am pretty impresed by all this technical oriented discussion. But I am also surprised that few people discussed how HE speakers sound like.
I need to mention here that HE speakers where originally build for disco and masses. And I have to disagree with all that stuff about micro-dynamics. I've heard several HE speakers - NONE was able to properly reproduce ANY dynamics, transient or whatever you wanna call it. In today world anyhow most of the speakers are built around 90db.

Talking about driveability - there are 2 other important factors:
- the high-curent delivered by amplifier and
- the impedance

I just listened yesterday a pair of floorstanders rated VERY conservative 87db. And they were driven more then loud by a 12W amplifier!!! Why is that? Because the speakers were in 8 ohms and because the amplifier delivered incredible high amoutns of current.

Horns? As I said - Music for the masses

doug s. · « **Reply #22 on:** 24 Jul 2005, 01:19 am »

yes - hi-efficiency speakers are dynamic!

re: >100db speakers on the market, there are actually a small handful of them. avantgarde acoustics comes to mind, as one of the better known >100db-efficienct speakers at the upper end of the price range. the zu speakers, considerably more affordable, are also >100db-efficient. while i am not big into the realm of hi-efficiency drivers, i am sure if you went over to the audio asylum, you could find folk that know scads of speakers being made that are >100db efficient.

the thing that is fun w/hi-efficiency speakers is that it allows you to play w/amps. the red-rose clari-t comes to mind. personally, i yust bought a home-brew 3wpc dual-mono tube amp off ebay.de that was so cheap & so cute, i couldn't resist! all vintage caps & resistors! all telefunken tubes! i can't wait for it to get here awreddy! even tho my speakers are *only* 97db-efficient, i still think it will be fun. and, having them crossed over to subs at 50hz doesn't hurt either...

doug s.

WEEZ · « **Reply #23 on:** 24 Jul 2005, 02:05 am »

Interesting thread.

I haven't heard all the 'high' efficiency speakers on the market by any means. But I've heard some. They ranged from great to lousy just like many so-called 'medium' or 'low' efficiency speakers.

The thing that I find interesting is that most discussions of low-power amps and high efficiency speakers centers around 'bass' and 'volume'.

I guess it's such a rare thing in a home environment to get 'both' from 2 or 3 watts that when it happens everyone can't help but be thrilled. It CAN happen. I've witnessed it. And it's amazing. But the combo I heard was way over what I would be willing to spend.

What ever works for you is what's important, I guess. All I would add is that efficiency (actually, sensitivity) needs to be measured in YOUR room. Looking at a spec sheet doesn't always tell the whole story.

My current 87db speakers are far more sensitive (seemingly more efficient) than my previous 92 db speakers in the same room with the same power. Go figure.

WEEZ

gonefishin · « **Reply #24 on:** 24 Jul 2005, 02:36 am »

Hi Dejan

Thanks for your thoughts on micro-dynamics and HE speakers. I think some of the problem may be the perception of the word dynamics of each individual your talking to.

When you mention the word dynamics and horns to many audiophiles they're likely to discuss high spl alone. But mention this to many "hornies" and they assume your talking about what makes dynamics. Which is the seperation from low spl level up to high spl levels. It's the dynamic range we're actually talking about. High spl levels aren't too desirable without a great seperation from the low.

For me...the dynamic range and the ability of low level resolution is what brought me to appreciate high efficiency speakers. Another desirable characteristics of a decent high E system is it's ability to play very well at both low and high levels.

Right now...I'm tri-amping my speakers using the DEQX preamp, two AKSA (SS) amps to pretty good results

But there certainly are still some downsides

But I still like the upsides better.

dan

doug s. · « **Reply #25 on:** 24 Jul 2005, 02:40 am »

Quote from: WEEZ

...My current 87db speakers are far more sensitive (seemingly more efficient) than my previous 92 db speakers in the same room with the same power. Go figure....

one of two things here, (i'm guessing

):

either:

yer present speakers are, say 4 ohms while yer old ones were, say 8 ohms; & ya have a mondo hi-current amp.

or:

yer present speakers are, say 8 ohms while yer old ones were, say 4 ohms; & yer amp doesn't like seeing low impedences...

doug s.

doug s. · « **Reply #26 on:** 24 Jul 2005, 02:44 am »

a word about dynamics. i agree w/dan - when i talk about something being dynamic, i am referring to dynamic range. i am not referring to whether or not something is *loud* if it's loud, it's... well... loud.

doug s.

Scott F. · « **Reply #27 on:** 24 Jul 2005, 02:55 am »

Quote from: rmihai0

I am pretty impresed by all this technical oriented discussion. But I am also surprised that few people discussed how HE speakers sound like.
I need to mention here that HE speakers where originally build for disco and masses. And I have to disagree with all that stuff about micro-dynamics. I've heard several HE speakers - NONE was able to properly reproduce ANY dynamics, transient or whatever you wanna call it. In today world anyhow most of the speakers are built around 90db.

Talking about driveability - there are 2 other important factors:
- the high-curent delivered by amplifier and
- the impedance

I just listened yesterday a pair of floorstanders rated VERY conservative 87db. And they were driven more then loud by a 12W amplifier!!! Why is that? Because the speakers were in 8 ohms and because the amplifier delivered incredible high amoutns of current.

Horns? As I said - Music for the masses

Not to be combative here but .....

Quote from: rmihai0

....HE speakers where originally build for disco and masses

....I've heard several HE speakers - NONE was able to properly reproduce ANY dynamics, transient or whatever you wanna call it.

You've got to be kidding ...... right?

Horns were originally built for disco?

You need to park yourself in front of a pair of Altec VOT's, Klipsch horns, JBL Hartsfields, Edgarhorns, Avante Guardes, C&C Abbys, Lowthers done right (or any number of other decent HE speakers), any of which driven by a decent SET or even the little class D amps out there and your uninformed views will be changed forever.

Good luck Mr Phelps.
This message will self destruct in 5 seconds.........

DVV · « **Reply #28 on:** 24 Jul 2005, 06:45 am »

Quote from: rmihai0

I am pretty impresed by all this technical oriented discussion. But I am also surprised that few people discussed how HE speakers sound like.
I need to mention here that HE speakers where originally build for disco and masses.

Actually, no. The first dynamic loudspeakers ever made, way back in the 1920-ies were, er, high efficiency designs. It was decades later, from roughly early 60-ies onwards, particularly in England, that people like the late Raymond Cooke (founder of KEF) started to introduce low efficiency through their quest for stiffer bass membranes. Others, even then offering aluminium cones, like Jordan-Watts, were sent off with comments like the one above.

Quote

And I have to disagree with all that stuff about micro-dynamics. I've heard several HE speakers - NONE was able to properly reproduce ANY dynamics, transient or whatever you wanna call it. In today world anyhow most of the speakers are built around 90db.

You were exceptionally unlucky, believe me. But you are right in one thing - when a manufacturer, any manufacturer, has only HE as a card to play with, the sound is not very likely to be much good. HE is only one of a string of objectives which need to met, or, put differently, it will not replace or invalidate other quality speaker aspects.

Quote

Talking about driveability - there are 2 other important factors:
- the high-curent delivered by amplifier and
- the impedance

Assuming high current requirements from the speaker, and assuming it is in addition a downright evil load, what do you think, which will tax an amp more, a HE speaker or a LE speaker?

Consider: your 90 dB speaker and a say 96 dB speaker. Under the above conditions, your 90 dB speaker will require four TIMES the power of the HE speaker for the same SPL. So, which one will suck the amp dry first?

Quote

I just listened yesterday a pair of floorstanders rated VERY conservative 87db. And they were driven more then loud by a 12W amplifier!!! Why is that? Because the speakers were in 8 ohms and because the amplifier delivered incredible high amoutns of current.

How big was the room? What were its acoustic properties? What kind of music was being played? What were the require SPLs?

As for "incredible amounts of current", I wonder what a 12W amp can deliver to be called so? Let's do some math: let's say the amp is a true voltage source (the ideal amp), and that it delivers the same voltage across anything we want to call a load. So, it should deliver 12/24/48 watts into 8/4/2 ohms, which is 1.73/3.46/6.92 amps.

In amp terms, that's nice, but far from impressive. A stock Yamaha integrated amp, AX-592 (1998), will deliver peak outputs of 470 watts into 2 ohms no problemo, which means peak currents of 21.7 amps. A nominally lowered powered Harman/Kardon 680 integrated amp (1999) will kick 540 watts into 2 ohms in peaks, which is 23.24 amps. These are regular, off the shelf units, and far from being alone - Rotel, NAD, Denon and many more will do about the same.

Careful with those power rating comments.

Quote

Horns? As I said - Music for the masses

Some, perhaps even most, are probably orientated towards the masses, but some, as in case of some high end JBL and Klipsch designs, to name but two, put out such sound that few, VERY few can even hope to match.

Beware of sweeping statements; they hardly ever stand in audio for long.

Cheers,
DVV

DVV · « **Reply #29 on:** 24 Jul 2005, 06:59 am »

Quote from: gonefishin

Hi Dejan Thanks for your thoughts on micro-dynamics and HE speakers. I think some of the problem may be the perception of the word dynamics of each individual your talking to.

Precisely. That's why I suggested we first level the playing field. That way, we waste less time later on explaining what we mean by this or that.

Quote

When you mention the word dynamics and horns to many audiophiles they're likely to discuss high spl alone. But mention this to many "hornies" and they assume your talking about what makes dynamics. Which is the seperation from low spl level up to high spl levels. It's the dynamic range we're actually talking about. High spl leve ...

Agreed. The concepts of macro and micro dynamics have not taken root yet. Macro dynamics means abosulte loudness, what happens, what you hear when the speaker is pushed hard near to its limits. Micro dynamics are what you hear when the speaker is playing at lower volume levels, as you would have them for normal listening sessions lasting hours.

Micro dynamic level is easy to adjust. It's just right when you open a beer can and the sound of that momentarily equals the sound of music from the system.

Of course, to make sure, you need to repeat this several times, check and double chek, better safe than sorry.

Quote

Right now...I'm tri-amping my speakers using the DEQX preamp, two AKSA (SS) amps to pretty good results

You are tri-amping with AKSAs and the sound is "pretty good"? No kidding? Why am I not surprised?

But seriously, way to go, man, way to go! Thumbs up!

Cheers,
DVV

JLM · « **Reply #30 on:** 24 Jul 2005, 11:50 am »

What do high efficiency speakers sound like? These are gross generalizations...

Highly dynamic (both micro and macro dynamic) due to both their efficiency and the smaller/faster amps they can be paired with.

Lack of deep bass for the given size (blame the laws of physics here). Note that low Qts horn loaded drivers balance out to some degree the poor damping characteristics of tube amps (this is the classic horn/tube synergy that goes back to the 1930s or before). Note that deep bass from a horn requires it to be the size of a room or garage and to be stiff enough to avoid flexing colorations must be made of something on the order of reinforced concrete.

Colored (to this day most audiophile grade horns still have colorations for a variety of reasons). Many drivers trade efficiency for colorations.

Yes, horns are used in PA systems, etc. where ever high efficiency is needed.

DVV · « **Reply #31 on:** 24 Jul 2005, 10:56 pm »

Quote from: JLM

What do high efficiency speakers sound like? These are gross generalizations...

Highly dynamic (both micro and macro dynamic) due to both their efficiency and the smaller/faster amps they can be paired with.

Lack of deep bass for the given size (blame the laws of physics here). Note that low Qts horn loaded drivers balance out to some degree the poor damping characteristics of tube amps (this is the classic horn/tube synergy that goes back to the 1930s or before). Note that deep bass from a horn re ...

Surely ANY technology can be made to sound both good and bad?

My experiences appear to be in complete contrast with yours. I have heard a few HE speakers I would just love to have. True, most were by JBL and most were professionally orientated, with appropriate pricing, but all used horn loaded mid and treble drivers, and all were rather HE.

In contrast, I have also heard just as many dead and/or bad sounding low efficiency speakers as I have heard good ones.

All of which led me to conclude that in this case, as everywhere else, there are good and bad sounding speakers no matter what their efficiency is. My own are medium efficiency speakers, 92 dB/2.83V/8 ohms.

The real question is - assuming two speakers of same overall quality (despite smaller differences in their rendition of the music), which would you choose, HE or LE?

Cheers,
DVV

rmihai0 · « **Reply #32 on:** 25 Jul 2005, 01:32 am »

I would ALWAYS chose LE (83-87).

_scotty_ · « **Reply #33 on:** 25 Jul 2005, 02:17 am »

I voted with my pocket book for the higher efficiency choice and I have no regrets. Lower distortion from the speaker and the amplifier are just a couple
of advantages.
Scotty

Watson · « **Reply #34 on:** 25 Jul 2005, 08:42 am »

I would choose low or medium efficiency speakers, if everything else was equal. There are just too many compromises involved in HE speakers. I've never seen measurements of a HE speaker, regardless of price, that were competitive with even a mediocre quality conventional speaker (specifically lacking are a uniform frequency response, uniform power response, good off-axis performance, and low harmonic distortion). I've also never liked the sound of the (few) HE speakers I've heard.

That said, the one exception for me would be using HE speakers with flea-powered tube amps. There is a certain synergy there.

doug s. · « **Reply #35 on:** 25 Jul 2005, 01:53 pm »

Quote from: DVV

...The real question is - assuming two speakers of same overall quality (despite smaller differences in their rendition of the music), which would you choose, HE or LE? ...

that's easy - which ever speaker sounded better is what i would choose!

doug s.

JohnR · « **Reply #36 on:** 25 Jul 2005, 02:19 pm »

I don't think it's really a matter of high efficiency vs low efficiency. 96 dB/W/m is achievable with direct radiators in a conventional three-way in a conventional (altho on the large side) box. So choosing a 96 vs 86 dB/W/m speaker is a fairly uninteresting question. Getting above that is where the challenge seems to be, and where one might start to assume -- as many do -- that "HE" means horns (or perhaps arrays).

lcrim · « **Reply #37 on:** 25 Jul 2005, 02:44 pm »

One of my systems was calculated to make use of an amp and speaker combination that I was pretty certain ahead of time were a very good combination- the Decware Select amp and the Parker Audio 95 MKII speakers. The Select is a SET that is non-typical in that it is friendly to low impedance speakers and the Parkers are rated @ 2ohms plus they are reasonably efficient @ a rated 95dB and are multi-driver w/ minimal X-overs to the tweeters. While it is very difficult to audition low volume specialty gear, all information I could gather pointed to this being a great combination. It has proven to be just that in a small (11' x 14' x 8') room.
I just recently got a used Eastern Electric Minimax power amp and it is driving my Sonus Faber Concertino Homes, rated @ 88 dB and 6 ohm load. This amp is a wonderful little 8 watt per channel p/p that drives this load beatifully. I do use powered subs in both systems to provide the lowest octave and have decent gain (20 dB) tubed preamps in both. This SF/EE system was an accident but it works just fine.
So, I guess if I've learned any lessons from this its that system synergy is terribly important . But also that since everyone's budget has limits, if you find speakers that you like and are also a fairly benign load to drive you won't have to spend so much on a good amp to drive them. Lower efficiency speakers like Doug S and Dejan point out can sound terrific too but to get a high quality amp to drive them will cost significantly more. The gran fromage over on 6moons (Srajan Ebaen) has been making this same point w/ realsization , I didn't think it up myself.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #38 on:** 25 Jul 2005, 03:08 pm »

Sweeping statements are great. Here are a couple from me: I've never heard anything from any multi-driver, lo-eff speaker that will do dynamics like a good single-driver, hi-eff speaker. Flat frequency response without dynamics is boorrrriinnnggggg.

Flat response and hi-efficiency can co-exist, it's just a tall order. Isn't that what we should expect from our kit?

mcgsxr · « **Reply #39 on:** 25 Jul 2005, 03:22 pm »

An interesting thread, and one that I would have thought I would have more input for! I have listened to low efficiency speakers for most of my time in audio, and only recently have swum up the channel of higher efficiency. Speakers include Totem Rokk, DIY Cable KIT41, the CSS WR125S, the CSS FR125S, and now the Visaton b200's. All the speakers but the Visatons are in the mid 80's for efficiency, and to me, all sounded good for a variety of reasons. Sure, the Visatons are presently in the 2 channel system, due to their unique sound, but a large portion of that is likely due to the fact that they are open baffle loaded, vs standard ported boxes.

In short, I find that all speakers are different, and if all HE speakers sounded best, then no one would build, buy or have LE speakers...

I agree with lcrim that system synergy is important, and as a user of exclusively lower powered (but not true low powered) 30wpc amps, I find that the dynamics with the Visatons are best, but it is not like the other speakers don't do things well too.

Experimentation is the key, to find combinations that work best together.

I suppose the same is of single drivers too - lots of folks really like them, others cannot abide them - thus it is with all things audio!

Must be all the ears involved!