[ABEX]

CE
I still use a Phillips CD-80 as a Transport and it is all metal.I should have stated that there are always exceptions,but they are few.

My cousin told me along time ago he would never buy another Phillips player because Sony out does them in all departments.

Like I said I still use the Philly CD-80 and I need to find a way of upgrading the transport some of which I can do my self,but I have other things going at the moment.

Regards.ABEX

[Dan Banquer]

i am not a member of any such Boston Audio Society. Nor am I a Democrat, or Republican for that matter. I'm not BALD either.  your claims of the mfgs using "inferior" parts is based on more nonsense.  CD,DVD, etc are consumer products.  the price will always drop as they find new ways to lighten the price.  Go to a pro audio catalog, the same makers make different models with nice hefty cases and drawers if thata is what you desire.  to take rough use in studios, radio stations etc.  but guess what, they still break also. Marantz has two line so fstuff, I bet the insides are all pretty similar.

And you still haven't answered my question  about the phillips player that can't meet it's own spec's. The thought occurs to me that maybe you don't know how.

[DVV]

Wires don't hold a charge then you somehow relate that to a capacitor!!!

Indeed? Then you obviously haven't heard yet that ANY wire ever made, by anybody, at any price, actually has not one, but three components: inductance (L), resistance/impedance (R) and capacitance (C), commonly abbreviated to the LRC components.

And it's that capacitance it doesn't have which produces very tangible (as in measureable and very much audible) differences between different cables.

... no wonder ideas like burn-in can sell over priced  products!!!!

No, burn-in works EVERY time, with EVERY product, the difference being only in how much change you will achieve. Generally, the better the product, the less of a difference.

...  then you are trying to convince me copper wire has directional molecules!!! WOW!!! ...

One, I didn't say "copper wire" has directional molecules, I said some of it does. Believe it or not, but cable manufacturers really do use different approaches and manufacturing technologies, even if you only heard of drawn copper wires. This should NOT be misconstrued to mean that every different technology is by default better than any other - just different, typically with some pros and cons, as it usually goes.

And two, I am not trying to convince you of anything, I'm trying to explain a few things to you. Obviously without success.

... All mfgs make products to a price point, some just make up absurd prices and sell it, the over priced stuff if you look in the guts have items out of the lower priced stuff. ...

I suppose one could say that. But then, it's hardly the same thing if your target price is say $100, as it would have to be if you want the retail price to be $250-300, or if it's say $1,000 and never mind if it does cost $3K in the end. A small matter of a 10:1 difference.

... a Philips CDM 12 laser assy is in so many different brands of CD players from mine CDC936, at $300 to ones costing thousands.  Selling price has nothing to do with cost of production. ZERO.

I see. What you are telling us is that it actually costs Dan d'Agostino just $100 to make a Krell monoblock, but because he's greedy, he sells it for $5K. Whereas say Philips is in the giveaway business, and the CD which costs them $100 they sell against all odds for $150, taking the loss with a smile.

By analogy, it costs about the same to produce a Yugo and a Rolls-Royce, it's just that the Yugo dealers are more honest and charge less, while the RR dealers are @#$%^&* thieves and charge more.

But it's not all bad for you, you know. You are quite right in stating that the Philips CDM 12 mechanism is to be found in many products. If it were not so, and if everybody was still making their own, your $300 CD player would cost more like $500 as is. Not to mention the fact that it's a great CD drive, or the fact that the drive is only one of a rather large number of variables all equating to, or failing to equate to good sound.

Portable Cd players sell for $39!!! While a multi disc player can sell for $80...then some ad agency sells a single drawer player for $10,000 and convinces you it has much better magic circuits.

Ah, now we learn that a Wadia is in fact a masked $80 portable Sony. Interesting. Very novel. Are you planning to sue Wadia for making false claims to the public?

...  And that over priced unit is based on the $80 retail unit!!! Welll they beefed up the case, and called it a cool name. If burn it mattered, why wouldn't the mass mfgs, burn in the compnonets before they assemble the units? ...

Ah, I see, you feel they have not been punished enough by burning in the end product, you feel they should be subjected to more misery beforehand. That would explain your suggestion that they burn in individual components, hundreds of them per single model.

I have just two questions:

1. Are you willing to pay not $80 for that Walkman, but $800, and proportionally more for larger units, and

2. If the Japanese audio industry accepts your idea, they will ask you a question - where do we move the 120 million Japanese after we build the mighty halls to house all that?

 Why doesn't the manual in my Philips 963 SACd player tell me to burn it in, before it will work properly? It's utter nonsense.

Because saying that will also state clearly that they know it should have been done, but hasn't, which would move you, the consumer, to ask the logical question - why not if I've paid for it?

And because somebody like you might sue them for selling an incomplete product - heck, if that old lady got $3 million from the microwave manufacturer for trying to dry up her dog in a microwave, and the dog up and exploded, and the court ruled her right for emotional stress just because the manufacturer didn't explicitly state ih his manual that dogs should not be dried in a microwave, but did say things could be heated up a little, then why shouldn't you succeed?

The irony here is that your handle corresponds exactly to the European electrical code, which is, thankfully, a cut above your questions.

Cheers,
DVV

[DVV]

This really explains why also that DVD Players have really eliminated all good CDP's. CDP's have almost been totally eliminated from the market place and made with inferior parts compared to when they were first introduced.The PS and Transport mechanisms use to made from Metal now it's all cheap plastic.

Just a small note here, Abex - metal is NOT by default superior. Consider two facts: 1) metal, any metal, is by defult incomparably more conductive than plastic, hence eddy currents (stray currents, also caused by magnetic interference) will by default be smaller with plastic than with metal, and 2) mechanical robustness can and is achieved by many ways, of which using heavy and hard and expensive to machine metal is only the most obvious, and I daresay most brutish way to achieve that

It helps also in shipping cost. Metal weighs alot more.

Not necessarily so. ABS plastic for example is rather heavy, not as much as equivalent metal, but not far behind either. But in most cases, you are quite right.

They have sacrificed quality for lower cost in every instance they could.As long as it plays and will last through the warranty period they are satisfied.Kinda like mass market printers which suck!

This is, unfortunately, the sad truth behind it much of it, not to say behind it all.

Cheers,
DVV

[DVV]

Instead of using your fingers to type, how about using your calculator to work a few things out?


Thy knowledge cuts like a double edged sword


Thanks
Raj

Just call me Blade.

Cheers,
DVV

[CE]

there is much hype and BS in audio, especially high end.  Sony outdoes em' all?  really, Philips is the world's largest maker of laser optical drives for DVD, CD, SACD...sony has their share of stuff that don't work. Go to www.legacy-audio.com, concerning capacitance, inductance, resistance in speaker wire(zip cord), the designer of the amazing FOCUS speaker, tells in the manual with the speakers, ONLY resistance maters.  It effects woofer control, DAMPING.  In the freq involved, inductance and capacitance is a non issue.  READ and learn from the engineers who make the stuff, not cable marketeers. Ain't WADIA out of business? Wasn't the stuff reworkded Philips drives? Paying thousands for a cd player is lunacy. It's been obsoleted by SACD/DVD players for one thing...no matter how much ad copy tells you of it's superior foil traces in bizzaro world.

[Jay S]

So, what Legacy Audio says is obviously true and all other manufacturers are a bunch of snake oil peddlers...  

Sure, SACD is a superior technology to CD.  But, technology is one thing, execution is another.  

Do you shop for audio equipment by comparing specifications and price?

[Dan Banquer]

O.K. I'm now convinced that CE doesn't now how to answer my question., and it appears that he does not know how to respond to Dejan either. I was hoping for something a touch more intelligent. As far as his rant on speaker cable he is half right; try using some whoppingly capacitive speaker cable and listen to your top end roll off, and possibly your power amp go into oscillation.  Yes CE, engineers have already documented this problem. I guess the problem is I'm not exactly famous, nor do I run a large company, but I do know a half assed rant when I hear one.

[Raj]

Hi,

I suppose audio compaines know that the product is going to be burned in eventually by the customer, the process starts as soon as the product is turned on, ok the company could tell you that the sound may change after 50 hours or so, but what's the big deal, does it really matter whether thay do this for you or not?

Thanks
Raj

[DVV]

Hi,

I suppose audio compaines know that the product is going to be burned in eventually by the customer, the process starts as soon as the product is turned on, ok the company could tell you that the sound may change after 50 hours or so, but what's the big deal, does it really matter whether thay do this for you or not?

Thanks
Raj

Seems it is some sort of a deal, because they generally don't say it. I suppose some refuse to believe it (because it's true some of them design gear with measuring equipment only), but I wasn't kidding when I said I think the main reason is to avoid being sued by an odd greedy idiot.

Cheers,
DVV

[Jay S]

Well, maybe most people don't notice the effects of burn in - either because they don't really pay attention or they are conditioned to hearing bad sound.  Another possiblity is the quality of the rest of their equipment.  The only people who seem to talk about burn-in is audiophiles.

[Raj]

Seems it is some sort of a deal, because they generally don't say it. I suppose some refuse to believe it (because it's true some of them design gear with measuring equipment only), but I wasn't kidding when I said I think the main reason is to avoid being sued by an odd greedy idiot.

Cheers,
DVV[/quote]



Hi DVV,

You got me there DVV, actually I hadn't thought of that, I suppose I'm of a fairly honest disposition, so it's something I overlooked. There's crooked consumers as well as manufacturers

Thanks
Raj

[DVV]

Seems it is some sort of a deal, because they generally don't say it. I suppose some refuse to believe it (because it's true some of them design gear with measuring equipment only), but I wasn't kidding when I said I think the main reason is to avoid being sued by an odd greedy idiot.

Cheers,
DVV

Hi DVV,

You got me there DVV, actually I hadn't thought of that, I suppose I'm of a fairly honest disposition, so it's something I overlooked. There's crooked consumers as well as manufacturers

Thanks
Raj

Personally, it is my belief the problem lies with greedy lawyers, who put up people to sue, cajole them into it, if you like. Never forget that such lawyers work on percentages, and a 50:50 deal is quite common.

Also, remember that electrical regulations/laws are in fact made for the benefit of the odd idiot - read any of them and you'll be surprised at what you'll find inside. About 90% of what you read as a sane and normal person you'd never even remember to do, let alone consider it.

And of course, you're quite right in saying there are crooked consumers as well, no doubt of that.

Cheers,
DVV

[DVV]

Well, maybe most people don't notice the effects of burn in - either because they don't really pay attention or they are conditioned to hearing bad sound.  Another possiblity is the quality of the rest of their equipment.  The only people who seem to talk about burn-in is audiophiles.

Absolutely agreed, Jay. We all know most people just pile up the components, or they are piled up for them by dealers, no synergy, no respect for elementary rules of assembling a decent audio system. Hence, poor sound anyway, and no amount of burn-in will ever change that.

Audiophiles on the other hand, whether with a $2K or $200K system, at least pay attention to details and synergy, and almost always have systems which are more revealing than a typically piled up system, so they are actually able to hear the differences more than your average Joe Bloggs.

For proof of that, just look at us here, we discuss at some length what an average consumer doesn't even know exists (not putting them down, just stating a fact).

Cheers,
DVV

[lonewolfny42]

"Audiophiles on the other hand, whether with a $2K or $200K system, at least pay attention to details and synergy, and almost always have systems which are more revealing than a typically piled up system, so they are actually able to hear the differences more than your average Joe Bloggs." I agree  >>>"  QUALITY over QUANTITY !!!!"

[DVV]

"Audiophiles on the other hand, whether with a $2K or $200K system, at least pay attention to details and synergy, and almost always have systems which are more revealing than a typically piled up system, so they are actually able to hear the differences more than your average Joe Bloggs." I agree  >>>"  QUALITY over QUANTITY !!!!"

Right on, Lone Wolf.

If it were not so, what would I be doing here? This is not a big group, it's not particularly famous and it costs a fair bit of time - BUT it also has an uncommonly good membership quality. And that's what it's all about.

Cheers,
DVV

[Jig_Anon]

I read a story once - something about being a fisher of men.  I want to be that guy - for - You are a sea of men fat with money - waiting to be harvested like so much salmon.  Lured by buzzwords, the promise of improved synergy, details, and dynamic filtering.  I am to become an ichthyologist of sorts - I will study my prey.  I will fish this sea - I will look down from my modest boat and cast my lure into the water.  If I catch nothing at first - I will bide my time - For the fish are plenty and fat.  Only a few need to be dazzled by the lure before more will come.  Sure - There are other fishermen - they were here before me - they have bigger boats and more poles and lures - but I will persist.  Occasionally - I look at the fish and feel sadness.  But hey - a man has to eat - am I right fellow fishermen?

My thing is this - that for some - this area of audiophilia - is a true religion - based more on belief and feeling than cold hard fact.  The sad thing is that these believers are more easily taken advantage of.  I am learning slowly who are just the believers and who are the philosophers.  I am also trying to learn what gear is good for looking and good for listening.  Just have to filter from time to time.

 I respect people on this board who question the "Faith" equipment/oil.  Without these people questioning and asking for VALID and APPLICABLE proof - we would still think the universe rotates around the Earth.  Without these people around - I may feel more confident going into business for myself - becoming a fisher of men.

ps. Sony et all would love to have the fault of bad sound fall on the head of the end user - that would be great for them.

[nathanm]

I've heard that some rare fish have acquired a taste for barbed metal worms and like to go for boat rides.  Perhaps too much mercury in the water?

two fish a-flopping
atop fisherman's ship
one fish sees 'penthouse'
the other sees 'crypt'

[saluto1121]

DVV I totally agree with you.