[DVV]

As a manufacturer I do burn in on all the hardware I produce. This involves a number of tests which I will not go into here. The main reason any manufacturer of hardware does a burn in is to insure relliability.

How true. I have read somewhere that if it works for the first 24 hours without a hitch, it has a probability of well over 99% that it will go on working for the next 7-10 years without a hitch, unless something untoward happens.

I have observed that when I first turn on a unit, it usually is a bit noisey. I have also observed that the electrolytic caps in the units when they are first turned on, can take a day or two for the electrolytic to fully "form up" inside the capacitor. This is the only burn in artifact I have observed to ...

Dan, of all things I should come up against today! I just spent the better part of the afternoon forming capacitors (10,000uF/63V). I do it by using a simple circuit which provides 40V but limits the charge current to about 250 mA. I let the cap charge up, then discharge it using high power Dale resistors. Then charge again, discharge, and so on 5 times per cap. I have found that this improves both the measured results and the sound, a cap so formed will soak up and deliver more current (which is not easy to measure, but can be done), and will last longer than otherwise. Ultimately, it will deliver a cleaner sound, meaning more detailed and subjectively faster sound than if I had used the same cap without forming it first.

date. I have compared recently manufactured equipment of mine versus older equipment I manufactured years ago. Once I have set the same levels, I must confess that I have not heard a difference to date. I do leave my equipment on practically all the time, I suppose that gives some of my units close to ten years of burn in. Given the above about my observations on electrolytic caps, I wonder how many of you are observing (whether you realize it or not) the same thing.

What most people don't know, and what I blame the manufacturers for not telling them when they should, is that the moment of switching on cuts the life cycle of any and all products. It should be no news that any electronic product will work most reliably and longest, with least deterioration in performance, if left on all of the time. This eliminates the switch on shock and keeps the unit in constant thermal balance. But this is bad news for people who have pure class A devices, because the power bill might start to pile up.

As for the original subject, Audioquest's claims, they are confused, parts of their story are contradictory, and in fact, they seem to be at odds with facts and prefer to rely on generalized claims served as self-explaining.

Subjectively, I have tried most of their cables, both interconnect and speaker, and have never found one which I would even consider good enough for keeping. In general, they sound cold and detached to me.

As one who has been cruisading against snake oil salesmen in audio, I can only agree that such responses are snake oil peddling, and of the superior kind, because they do use some half-truths there (half-truths only because they haven't take the argument all the way, but stopped at the point most convenient for them).

On the other hand, with full respect for the placebo effect, which is a reality like it or not, I have run up against some audio products which changed DRASTICALLY after 5-6 days' worth of burn in. None, I believe, like the Marantz CD 6000 and 6000/LE CD players. Out of the box, they sound like somebody just skinned you alive for a worthless piece of junk; 6 days later, working 24 hours a day on Repeat All, into a pair of RCA plugs with a 4K7 resistor across each, you end up listening to a product which just as well might not be the same brand at all - TOTALLY different. Shockingly different, but fortunately, all the better for it. From harsh and irritating, it turnes into a very civilized player, which more or less has it all, albeit for its price point, one I would recommend without hesitation.

And remember, I eliminated the placebo effect, and the getting used to the sound effect, by auditioning it for two hours, then repeating the same tests 6 days later, no listening in between.

But I sure am glad the topic of snake oil peddling has been taken up by others as well.

Cheers,
DVV

[nathanm]

Subjectively, I have tried most of their cables, both interconnect and speaker, and have never found one which I would even consider good enough for keeping. In general, they sound cold and detached to me.

The sound of a detached cable is definitely not good.  Lower noise floor though, in some cases; especially power cords.  I experienced the same thing when I tried Dan's phantasmagoric Beldenators. The cat's ass I tell you.  Wow.

[Dan Banquer]

Just for the record here, I have found cables that sound different. I have never said that all cables sound alike.  I should also say that most of the "high end" cables that I have evaluated here have given me more "coloration" than Belden. That's been real dissapointing to me. When I did switch interconnect cables that I referred to in an earlier post it was between two different brands of microphone cable, with similar construction.  The result was not surprising to me.
The real point of posting the reference to the Audioquest FAQ is to make all of you aware that claims by certain manufacturers have not been backed up by any known measurement, and are disputed by many physicists, and engineers.  In the past, when these manufacturers have been asked to document their claims there has been nothing but radio silence. Consumer Beware

[Dan Banquer]

I like your method of forming  large electrolytic capacitors. I do similar things here for the large electrolytics in the LNPA 150's. Given your experiences with "mass market" cd players, I would hazard a guess that they are not burning in their units prior to sale.

[CE]

So then say, Philips or Sony,  2 biggest makers of most Cd drives and laser optics, and related ckts, are doing something wrong?  If the end user has to correct the products by "burning in"? What burns in in solid state electronics?  Nothing in the manual of my latest Philips 963 SACD player mentions "burn in"....so the Engineers at Philips just forgot about this important aspect of their product?  Hmmmm, Philips invented the CD,CR recorable, re writable, PCM, DSD, SACD anything digital optical recording, yet, they just don't know about the burn in? How silly of them.

[DVV]

So then say, Philips or Sony,  2 biggest makers of most Cd drives and laser optics, and related ckts, are doing something wrong?  If the end user has to correct the products by "burning in"? What burns in in solid state electronics?  Nothing in the manual of my latest Philips 963 SACD player mentions "burn in"....so the Engineers at Philips just forgot about this important aspect of their product?  Hmmmm, Philips invented the CD,CR recorable, re writable, PCM, DSD, SACD anything digital optical recording, yet, they just don't know about the burn in? How silly of them.

Well, how practical do you think it is burning in say 200,000 CD players per annum - and of one model only?

Those making expensive, and therefore much less numerous products DO burn them in (e.g. Krell, Audio Research, etc, etc).

Cheers,
DVV

[Raj]

Hey,

Perhaps this could be used as a new marketing tool, you can have a brand new unit for say £400  or have a burned in unit which has been run continuously for 3 months for £500, would you want to pay the extra considering it would be the same model? OOOOh just think of that extra bass tightness, smooooooother topend, and air round instruments


Thanks
Raj

[CE]

Don't you think, with all the units produced by Philips/sony, including the other's licensed by Philips to make players...last total was about 700MILLION units in the world, if it had any credibilty, they would have realized it?  No one can answer, what burns in in solid state electonics?  If it indeed takes months. then they could just start 3 months sooner making them units, cus' the stuff would then burn in, before shipping.  no such issue, made up marketing nonsense.  Sould I burn in my wall outlets before use?

[Audio Al]

Analysis Plus is the only cable vendor that I've seen that claims to have "scientifically verifiable quality"; whatever that means.  Here is a link to their site's technology page.

http://www.analysis-plus.com/Pages/thedesign.htm

Any comments from the physicists out there?[/url]

[CE]

WOW, I'm convinced!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Images of red and green blurs.....This was done where?  NIST, UL, art dept at the ad agency? don't see any references to cordinate the massive research involved, i have to admit, there are differences in cables, some are green some or black, others might be brown.  Why am i trying to reproduce recordings made on such inferior wires, like from recording studios?  Can i make my toater perform better with toaster electron technology?  Since it appears electrons are specific to certain applications.  My audio electrons seem to do ok in zip cord.  Maybe I need to lte them know, it can't be....i need magic twists, and other fixes.

[Audio Al]

Believe it or not, my British made Russell Hobbs toaster claims to have "Toast-tec" technology.  I'm still trying to figure out what the hell that means!    It does have a plain zip cord though.

[CE]

So insanity run in small appliances also.  Toaster electrons.  How do they know to brown the bread and not play music? did ya' ever wonder how that is?  they must be smart or sumptin'.  WHAT?!!! Not a PHILIPS toaster? It really is not a regular cord, the insualtion is higher temp than standard zip cord, SPT-1 etc..  HPN called here in the U.S.  Same cord for steam irons etc. Have you ever  considered upgrading to toast tec-2.....they eliminated a lot of crumbs, and  the toat has a more subtle crunch, that is audible.  Not only by golden eared toastee's

[DVV]

Don't you think, with all the units produced by Philips/sony, including the other's licensed by Philips to make players...last total was about 700MILLION units in the world, if it had any credibilty, they would have realized it?  No one can answer, what burns in in solid state electonics?  If it indeed takes months. then they could just start 3 months sooner making them units, cus' the stuff would then burn in, before shipping.  no such issue, made up marketing nonsense.  Sould I burn in my wall outlets before use?

Instead of using your fingers to type, how about using your calculator to work a few things out?

For example, how much space do say 1,000 CD players require for storage of say 5 days to burn in? Then multiplying that with say 5 (integrated amps, receivers, tuners, CD burners, etc)? Then multiplying that by the number of manufacturers? Then multiplying that with real world numbers, which are related to annual production runs? Then by the cost of the whole do?

Remember that the likes of Philips and Sony make models TO A PRICE, not to any particular specification, quite understandable given that they all have at least three, and often more, price tiers they cater for. To be able to maintain low production costs, they don't have the time to fool around with taking each and every unit off the assembly line, cart it off to a special room, load it on a rack, connect it to power, put a CD in and issue the necessary commands. Then, after it's done, they have to disconnect it, pack the cable again, wipe it clean, package it and only then get it ready for shipping.

Can it be done? Of course it can. Is it being done? Yes, but only on very expensive equipment. Why? Simple - it costs too much in terms of effort and hence labor, space and logistics.

If you get around to adding a few facts, you might ask yourself can it be true the likes of Philips and Sony don't know that an AD826 op amp is MUCH better than the NJR they throw in? Of course they do - but if they used the AD instead, they would end up paying a price difference of about $1.50 per op amp, and since two are commonly used, that's $3 per CD player, which translates to $300,000 for a series of 100,000 units. Ask yourself - how much ad space can $300,000 buy? An awful lot, believe me, and I have yet to see a mass manufacturer who will invest this into his product rather than his advertising.

If you ever stop to think about things like this, you will come with very interesting data.

As for electrical burn-in, it has been said, and as far as I am aware, only partly proved scientifically that in original form, most leads are full of unaligned (i.e. not aligned according to electron flow direction) molecules. When left under power, these same leads will align to a certain point, which is also dependent on other factros, such as the materials uses, vlotages and currents.

Just how long this process takes depends on a mix of variables, but is generally assumed to be take 72-144 hours, or 3-6 days, by which time 99% of the job is done.

This can actually be tested and measured. For example, charge up a large capacitor, say 10,000uF, then drain it slowly. You can do this all by yourself, at your home, using say a car headlight bulb. The first discharge will take x hours (depending on how much current the light bulb draws), the second time will take a bit longer and so on until the fourth or fifth time, by when you will have achieved about the maximum.

In case of cables, this time can vary by a factor of 3:1. If we say a typical copper cable takes say 12 days, a monocrystal cable of sizeable proportions, such as for example the Ecosse Big Red power cable will take 3-4 days, as will some Kimber cables.

With electronics, another factor is what type of printed circuit board you use. Typical glass fibre offerings have 40 microns of copper, but mil spec boards typically have 70 microns, and special boards go up to 120 microns. The thicker the copper layer, the better overall because of better conductivity, but also the longer the burn in time; in my view, a small price to pay for the benefits involved.

Cheers,
DVV

[Dan Banquer]

Thank you Dejan; Let me add some fuel to this fire. I have a consumer phillips cd player produced in the mid 90's. It fails most of their own tests on their own test disc. The problems are so obvious that you don't need an audio precision one, all you need is a scope. Quality control? Not at this price. I use it  as a transport for bench test and as a comparison unit.
BTW: I wonder if CE belongs to the Boston Audio Society?

[CE]

Wires don't hold a charge then you somehow relate that to a capacitor!!! no wonder ideas like burn-in can sell over priced  products!!!!  then you are trying to convince me copper wire has directional molecules!!! WOW!!! All mfgs make products to a price point, some just make up absurd prices and sell it, the over priced stuff if you look in the guts have items out of the  lower priced stuff.  a Philips CDM 12 laser assy is in so many different brands of CD players from mine CDC936, at $300 to ones costing thousands.  Selling price has nothing to do with cost of production.  ZERO. Portable Cd players sell for $39!!! While a multi disc player can sell for $80...then some ad agency sells a single drawer player for $10,000 and convinces you it has much better magic circuits.  And that over priced unit is based on the $80 retail unit!!! Welll they beefed up the case, and called it a cool name. If burn it mattered, why wouldn't the mass mfgs, burn in the compnonets before they assemble the units?  Why doesn't the manual in my Philips 963 SACd player tell me to burn it in, before it will work properly? It's utter nonsense.

[Raj]

Instead of using your fingers to type, how about using your calculator to work a few things out?


Thy knowledge cuts like a double edged sword


Thanks
Raj

[ABEX]

This really explains why also that DVD Players have really eliminated all good CDP's. CDP's have almost been totally eliminated from the market place and made with inferior parts compared to when they were first introduced.The PS and Transport mechanisms use to made from Metal now it's all cheap plastic.

It helps also in shipping cost.Metal weighs alot more.

They have sacrificed quality for lower cost in every instance they could.As long as it plays and will last through the warranty period they are satisfied.Kinda like mass market printers which suck!

[CE]

the new Philips 963 has a nice metal case, but the single drawer is plastic, it is actually not flimsy.  It is smoother than the recorder tray on my Philips CDR785 player /recorder. On the recorder unit, the draw kinda snaps shut, on the 963 it's silky smooooth, but a bit slooow.  Metal front cover and top cover....same as my CDC936 all metal, as is the recorder model...METAL..they all have plastic trays. the two older models have lasted well past warranty, they are EXCELLENT products. All three are made in Hungary.  the really low price ones I think are assembled in China.  Did you know Marantz, Dennon (D&M holdings now) recently bought McIntosh in New York...Philips sold off Marantz to this new holding company, Philips holds like a 21% share of D&M holdings. It's all money.  Mass produced stuff.  Whether it's an under $400 recorder, or SACD , or a $10,000 marketing goof for the gulliable, they are all based on components from one or two companies.  Philips, Sony, and maybe Pioneer.

[Dan Banquer]

To CE: Care to answer my question? If not, then I will just ignore you from now on. Care to comment on the unit in question not meeting phillips own test spec's?

[CE]

i am not a member of any such Boston Audio Society. Nor am I a Democrat, or Republican for that matter. I'm not BALD either.  your claims of the mfgs using "inferior" parts is based on more nonsense.  CD,DVD, etc are consumer products.  the price will always drop as they find new ways to lighten the price.  Go to a pro audio catalog, the same makers make different models with nice hefty cases and drawers if thata is what you desire.  to take rough use in studios, radio stations etc.  but guess what, they still break also. Marantz has two line so fstuff, I bet the insides are all pretty similar.